Variety reports:
Big shakeup on the staff of NBC’s “Heroes” came down on Sunday with the axing of co-exec producers Jesse Alexander and Jeph Loeb.
Both scribe-producers had been with the show since its first season and were known to have led the day-to-day production operation under the direction of creator/exec producer Tim Kring. – Read the rest on Variety
The story goes on to say that the Peacock brass wasn’t happy with the creative direction of the show. It’s nice to hear that they are taking fan feedback to heart, though we’re pretty sure that it wouldn’t care if the ratings hadn’t turned south. NBC claims it doesn’t worry about ratings, only margins. But in most cases ratings and margins are correlated, especially when (according to Variety) there are budget overruns and each episode is budgeted at a hefty four million dollars to produce.
Despite the ratings downturn, Heroes still has been one of NBC’s best performers among 18-49 year olds.
November 2nd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Seems like Kring should be the one fired.
November 2nd, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Haha, though what you suggest, Robert, is definitely true, it still is news for the week for me.
That being said, they should hire back people who were behind writing during first season and nuke all the zombies they hired afterwards. At least that’s how *I* described myself the actual possibility of a downfall such like this.
November 2nd, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Fire Loeb, but keep Kring? Kring IS the problem. It’s funny because you know they did the move to impress someone, and it’s not even a real move. Firing Kring is about the only thing that could save Heroes.
What I’d do is fire him, and hire new people that get it, and reboot. That would be really easy to do.
November 2nd, 2008 at 7:52 pm
What a bunch of idiots! Loeb writes the best episodes on the show and actually has comic experience (including penning quite a few good Batman stories). He shouldn’t be fired, he should be the showrunner! Kring has done a terrible job and should be fired. He’s the one making all the major plot decisions, not any of the producers. Does anybody at NBC have an IQ over 10? Way to screw up again guys!
November 2nd, 2008 at 8:50 pm
NBC being stupid?! Shocking!
I watched the first season, I loved the first season, but the season finale was horrible and it’s been going downhill from there.
And 4 million dollars?! Maybe if the cast wasn’t 10,000 people they could save some money!
November 2nd, 2008 at 9:22 pm
10,000 people and I care about — let’s see — Ando and . . . . . nope, just Ando.
Its so disappointing. Because the show did have seemingly unlimited potential. And last year we got . . . . the Wonder Twins. And this year we got a bunch of new ones — I can’t even remember their names or keep straight what their powers are.
I keep watching because I figure it HAS to get better — the beginning is always slow . . . . . and because its on right after Chuck.
November 2nd, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Loeb’s writing was only the inspiration for the Dark Knight script. NBC is being incredibly careless here.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:16 am
Four million per episode? What a budget.
November 3rd, 2008 at 5:56 am
David4, exactly what I have been thinking all along! At last someone else who thinks the same.
November 3rd, 2008 at 6:15 am
HEROES is headed down the same road as THE 4400. HEROES this season got really desperate when they stole plot devices from THE 4400 – malovent group of power hungry people with powers/abilities and the rip off of the adrenalin formula = promicin that gives regular people powers. I dont think theres anything that can save it now. It will not be axed before the end of this season but likely after 13 episodes next season. Hopefully they wrap thing up better than THE 4400 did, where it left everyone hanging after Seattle fell under the control of the Jordan Collier cult – regular people either developed abilities or died. They did produce a novel after USA cancelled it, but thats just not the same as live TV.
HEROES downfall can be traced the Season 1 finale which was poorly received by fans and usually rated as the worst episode of Season 1. Season 2 then sealed its fate. I guess it will replaced by a dancing show? Ugh.
November 3rd, 2008 at 7:14 am
Rofl, Yeah. NBC needs it’s very own dancing show and all will be well in the world.
You give good points in comparison with 4400, TM. Though since the finale of Season 1, clearly bad writing isn’t the only thing I personally find negative. First and foremost it’s the attitude – they try really, really hard to make it a “next gen” sci-fi show with supposedly “tight” and “well-considered” plot lines. However, they keep failing miserably because they keep screwing up little details – Hiro fake-killing Ando and stopping time, while Speeder stands next to them (regardless that few episodes back Speedster was able to stop Hiro from stopping time), totally mindless killing of Parkman’s dad who was clearly seen in one of mrs Petrelli’s visions about future (though you can argue here that future “isn’t set in stone”) and last but not least, present Peter and future Peter seeing each other face to face and transporting together into future or something (rule #1 in sci-fi: never create an ultimate paradox where one person meets their “double”) and so on. None of the “time travel/future” aspects are treated even with slightest care (good comparison here is Lost, where they actually put several weeks into Desmond’s episode which obviously turned out perfect).
You can find such examples quite a few, just those few were the ones who jumped into my head first. And come to think of it, Season 1 was so flawless… Oh well.
November 3rd, 2008 at 7:18 am
If only someone could have foreseen this…or could go back in time to stop these terrible events…
November 3rd, 2008 at 7:24 am
Clearly, there is more to this story. They are making room for Bryan Fuller to return after the inevitable cancellation of Pushing Daisies.
November 3rd, 2008 at 7:28 am
Haha Frank, maybe it is Kring who had that power and used it to save his job
November 3rd, 2008 at 7:31 am
Robert, no thoughts on a possible Fuller return? It seems to me that the writing is on the wall with PD, NBC brass know it, and would want the writer of the best-ever episode to come back on board, so are trimming Loeb, who could never really translate his comic-book mentality effectively onto the small screen.
I’d get rid of Pokaski and Coleite too. Their snarky interviews on CBR are so annoying that for those alone they should be fired.
November 3rd, 2008 at 7:37 am
One thing I do need to say is that Heroes needs to plan an exit strategy. Plan out the final seasons just like ABC’s “Lost” after its first three seasons. The writers strike did throw a monkey wrench into the details, but still the best way to make this show make money for years to come is to let people know you are going to end this in three years. It will need six seasons of at least 22 episodes to go over the 100 episode mark. Since Lost did three seasons of 22+ episodes the final seasons can be shorter for that respected show.
No wonder Sci-Fi is doing better in Britain. They don’t have to focus on the quantity of episodes unlike here. Granted Doctor Who has lots of quantity from both the classic and current series (and their were jerks at BBC who chucked out many DW episodes pre-1975) but looking at the success of spinoffs Torchwood and Sarah Jane Adventures.
BBC’s longtime rival network ITV decided to get into the act by picking up Primeval. All three shows just mechioned went beyond a First Series (they use that term instead of season). TW just aired two series and will have a 5 episode third series and TW will air for the first time on BBC’s main TV channel BBC One. As for Primeval the first series had six episodes, the second had eight, and the third will have ten. It looks likes their will be no room for filler or lots of it. DW and TW had filler for their own but not a lot of it.
On the other hand Sci-Fi Channel has its share of Sci-Fi hits that will not go over a 100 episodes. Battlestar Galactica and Eureka for sure will not hit that mark. It only got a 21 episode pick up for season three because of the writers strike. Otherwise it would have been a 13 episode season once again.
November 3rd, 2008 at 7:43 am
KellyH — no thoughts at all. I really don’t follow show development closely, but know our readers are interested in it. I watch Heroes and its ratings (and do think the show’s creative direction and ratings are at least somewhat linked). I didn’t even know there was a writer working on Pushing Daisies who used to work on Heroes because I don’t follow that stuff. I do follow the ratings though, and I’m as sure as I can be that if Fuller works on Pushing Daisies he should have some available time soon…
November 3rd, 2008 at 7:48 am
Bryan Fuller is the creator and show runner of Pushing Daisies. Also responsible for Dead Like Me and Wonderfalls. He worked on Heroes during the first season and penned the “Company Man” episode, widely regarded as the best of the season.
November 3rd, 2008 at 7:55 am
Ah, so he has a history of creating highly regarded shows that few people watch.
I enjoyed the Company Man episode a lot. Ah, the good old days. I guess the question becomes what are his options absent Pushing Daisies? Would he want to work on something where he wasn’t executive producer/showrunner? Would he want to work at all for a while in the aftermath of PD?
November 3rd, 2008 at 8:35 am
One other question, Robert, and I know this isn’t the right thread for it, but your Pushing Daisies piece is kind of buried now. What role do Emmy nominations/awards play in cancel/renew decisions? It has been my understanding from various sources that Emmy wins were the reason that Arrested Development got as many as 2-1/2 seasons and the reason why The Amazing Race, with its much higher production costs and much lower viewership than other reality shows, wasn’t axed a long time ago.
Somewhere, I think it might have been Berman, there was some talk that ABC really can’t cancel all three of Pushing Daisies, Eli Stone, and Dirty Sexy Money and that they will have to keep at least one for a full season. Pushing Daisies has been pegged as the most likely cancelled, but some are also saying that the 12 nominations and 3 wins (including a major one for directing) might give it an edge over DSM, which apparently costs more, and Eli, which was given the gift of a post-dancing slot and endless promotion and squandered both (and which has no awards to show for it).
I know that expecting a back 9 for PD is a pipe dream at this point, but is there any credence to this award talk or any “advantage” it might have over the other two shows if cancelling all three is not an option for ABC?
And to bring the thread back on topic, Fuller would be an idiot not to go back to Heroes, and I believe he has every intention of doing that. I don’t see another network taking a chance on one of his created shows anytime soon if Daisies dies ignominiously.
November 3rd, 2008 at 8:39 am
Kelly, it’s just my opinion, but in the case of Pushing Daisies with the numbers it pulls I think the Emmy nods are completely meaningless to ABC. It would be one thing if it had low total viewers but was still pulling reasonable numbers in the demos, but it is the demos that sealed the show’s fate.
In cases like 30 Rock the demo numbers (even before the Fey-as-Palin record numbers) were at least OK. I don’t have the historical data on Arrested Development’s demo numbers, but with a 30 minute sitcom for a couple of factors including costs and the belief, reasonable or otherwise that sitcom success is critical –the nets can be more patient. especially if they are enamored with the show.
November 3rd, 2008 at 8:39 am
Wow, I didn’t even know Bryan Fuller was at work in Heroes during first season. No wonder it was so great.
November 3rd, 2008 at 9:36 am
I used to like Heroes but i had to stop watching it this season after a few episodes because the show is horrible now, very unwatchable for me. I like some of the characters but i just hate the storylines. Note to writers: please get rid of Claire, thanks.
November 3rd, 2008 at 11:10 am
Creative problems for this show are far and wide, but I’m kind of surprised at the budgeted 4 million per episode that they’re apparently running way over. There was a post here a while back about ad rates for these shows. Anyone remember what Heroes was bringing down per commercial? I want to say it was close to 250k a commercial. But even then, that means they’d have to show 16 commercials an episode just to break even on episode cost. If they’re running way over, NBC could be losing a lot of money on this show right now, despite the ratings being good in the demo. And I’m sure the advertisers are looking at the numbers right now, and NBC is looking at what it’s ratings may be for sweeps, which I believe sets the ad rates for the Spring.
November 3rd, 2008 at 11:26 am
“No wonder Sci-Fi is doing better in Britain. They don’t have to focus on the quantity of episodes unlike here. Granted Doctor Who has lots of quantity from both the classic and current series (and their were jerks at BBC who chucked out many DW episodes pre-1975) but looking at the success of spinoffs Torchwood and Sarah Jane Adventures.”
Unfinished thought. Sci-Fi has found a good audience in the UK.
In what I meant to say regarding Heroes. It needs four seasons of 22+ episodes to get over the 100 episode hump. That means the current season, and it needs a fourth, fifth and sixth season to do just that.
November 3rd, 2008 at 11:34 am
Frank, it’s just under $200k for a 30 second spot.
November 3rd, 2008 at 11:37 am
Although those ad $ numbers are from the Ad
WeekDo’h! Age article we linked to, I would hesitate to use them except to compare shows to each other. I think that those are probably some sort of “list price” that likely varies significantly in actual practice.November 3rd, 2008 at 11:40 am
Meaning, most advertisers get deals because they can buy in bulk or negotiate better prices? Or do you mean that it’s usually more than that?
November 3rd, 2008 at 11:40 am
I agree with Bill, though Advertising “Age” rather than “Week”. Plus, we have no idea what points are guaranteed for whatever price they pay. So even if it is around $200K, if that is with a guarantee of a 4.5 rating or better (completely making the number up) last week it wouldn’t have made it…
November 3rd, 2008 at 11:41 am
for me, meaning different advertisers likely get different deals based on how much $$ they commit up front. it may mean something different to Bill.
November 3rd, 2008 at 11:46 am
Regarding your comment on last week not “making it.” They still would have to be paid at whatever rate was negotiated, they would just be bending over backwards to make it up to the advertisers, I think. (Which likely means free spots, so I guess it all averages out to paying less.) Unless I misunderstand how the advertising industry works.
November 3rd, 2008 at 11:48 am
my understanding is the same as yours. it has to be very rare where “money is returned”, though I have read about cases where that was at least requested. I think the make goods usually are in the way of extra spots and “cut you a check!?” is probably not in the network’s vocabulary.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Interesting news. I say cut some some character like Mohander, Sylar and Matt and move forward with a new writer(s)
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Heroes makes money. You forget Nissan paid hefty sums to get Claire to drive their new vehicle. Product tie ins combined with advertising revenue keeps Heroes making money.
Going over budget however is not cool. Talks with Fuller btw have already begun. ABC currently has no plans of picking up the back 9 of Pushing Daisies, and as recently as today reminded Fuller to make sure the episode they are shooting this week “wraps it all up.”
The only show Fuller ever had that did decently was Dead Like Me, and that show ended prematurely for different reasons. It was doing ok though. Plus remember Fuller left that show before midseason of the first season.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Loeb and Alexander weren’t the problem. It’s the fans. They can’t make up their minds what they want. They complained that the show was moving too slow and that nothing happened. So what do Kring and company do? They rewrite the show so that each episode has at least one “Wow” moment. They complain that the cast is too big. Kring kills/writes off 5 characters so far this year and still, you people are still complaining.
The fact of the matter is that American TV viewers are dumb and lazy. Shows like Lost and Heroes are too advanced for their slow working brains to comprehend. That’s why reality shows are so popular now; they don’t require you to think. Everyone wants that instant gratification. No one wants to wait to see how a story will unfold or end. It’s no wonder the country is in the horrible shape that it’s in.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Nick, Nissan can’t be happy either with whatever they paid for that tie in, and are likely due a make good.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:41 pm
TMZ, don’t get elitist. If anything Heroes was TOO dumb for America. I could easily teach everyone a lesson on “good writing,” by pointing out all the problems that started with Heroes on Season 2 and have continued into Season 3.
It really doesn’t matter what it is, BAD writing will always ruin a show and ratings WILL suffer. However your idea that FANS are the problem does make sense. It was fans that wanted the return of Sylar (who was supposed to die) and that alone screwed with where the story was going. The biggest problem was Tim Kring came up with the idea behind HEROES and never knew where it would go. He had an excellent opening act so to speak and in this case really had no 2nd or 3rd acts.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Julia, I doubt it. HEROES is still the most watched show in Japan.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Nick, that’s not how advertising works. Whatever NBC promised Nissan was based on last year’s numbers. They’re not living up to them.
viewing in Japan has no bearing on ad dollars paid in the US, while it may factor into “product placement”, NBC is likely still under delivering on what was sold.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:47 pm
I think TV advertising “deals” of all kinds are the norm rather than the exception and that those Ad Age numbers are nice reference points for comparing shows on a relative basis, but to try and figure out a per episode revenue from them isn’t likely to be correct.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:51 pm
“It was fans that wanted the return of Sylar (who was supposed to die) and that alone screwed with where the story was going.”
I don’t have a problem with Sylar remaining on the canvas. And I like this idea that he’s actually trying to be a Hero. The whole “cutting open your head to steal your power” was getting old.
I blame the fans because they keep sending Kring mixed signals. Everything he’s done so far has been to try and win the viewers back. I think that the show is much better than it was last season. Is it as good as Season 1? No, but then what show can top it’s magical debut? As good as Lost was last season, it still didn’t match it’s first season.
I think that Heroes will make it thorough the end of this season (NBC has nothing else to put on) and then next year will be it’s last. I’ll be sad that the show is gone, but I’ll be glad to be rid of all of the whinning.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Robert, lets just say Nissan is extremely pleased with the deal. They started it after Season 1, and they have no reason to complain (in fact they do the opposite).
My point still stands, Heores does fine with money, but it’s not the money that NBC wants. Going over budget and losing viewers is not what they want. They want to stay on budget and gain viewers.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Nick C. Do you work for Nissan and speak for them? If so, that’s fine. Otherwise, what you say on Nissan’s satisfaction doesn’t sway me that they are as satisified this year as last.
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:59 pm
TMZ, sorry friend, but the show is dropping because of poor writing. No other reason. Currently the STORY is driving characters. This is a major no-no in writing for a serial. The characters should drive the story. Basically what that means is you’ve defined the characters previously. So the characters should make decisions that MAKE SENSE to their character while pushing the story forward. In the case of season 2 and season 3 of Heroes the STORY has pushed characters forward. The characters continue to do “stupid,” or “non-character,” things. It is generally one or the other.
Picking up the pace is not a problem. Having characters do things that make no sense in either in terms of intelligence or sense of their character is just bad writing. Bad writing generally weakens characters and viewers don’t like that.
Season 1 was generally smart and well crafted. Season 2 and Season 3 have been far from it.
November 3rd, 2008 at 1:04 pm
“TMZ, sorry friend, but the show is dropping because of poor writing. No other reason. Currently the STORY is driving characters. This is a major no-no in writing for a serial. The characters should drive the story. Basically what that means is you’ve defined the characters previously. So the characters should make decisions that MAKE SENSE to their character while pushing the story forward. In the case of season 2 and season 3 of Heroes the STORY has pushed characters forward. The characters continue to do “stupid,” or “non-character,” things. It is generally one or the other.”
I understand that, Nick. I’ve done some writing myself so I know the rules of the game. I guess I don’t agree with everyone else that the current writing for Heroes is as bad as people make it out to be. I’m not talking about Season 2. Even I can’t defend that crap. However, this season seems better to me. To each his own, I guess.
November 3rd, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Robert, until you hear otherwise just assume Nissan is happy. Since the Nissan deal was primarily made due to JAPAN’s viewing habits, I can say ratings in the states are pointless to the argument. It was product placement, and product placement deals are not like “advertising,” deals. The Nissan will remain the vehicle Claire drives on the DVD. When world wide viewing drops to abysmal levels and DVD sales dry up and die, then Nissan might be mad. They won’t and can’t ask for their money back however.
November 3rd, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Nick, here’s how it is: unless the numbers get back to last year’s levels, I will assume Nissan *isn’t* as happy as it was last year. That doesn’t mean:
1.) NBC isn’t making money or
2.) Nissan is *unhappy*
..it just means I don’t think it is as happy as last year. Just assume there’s absolutely NOTHING — not even a glowing Nissan press release to the contrary — that will change my mind here
November 3rd, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Hurry up! Somebody grab a pail! It’s sinking FAST!
November 3rd, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Looks like the NBC executives weren’t too pleased with the Entertainment Weekly article.
“The final blow came from last week’s Entertainment Weekly cover, which I’m told was reported on under the ruse of a promotional story for the series. The surprise—a cover story pointing out Heroes’ third-season flaws and fan discontent—did not go over well with higher-ups.”
November 3rd, 2008 at 8:11 pm
YATA
November 4th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
LAWSUIT.
REMEMBER THAT WORD.
November 5th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
There is too much spoiler information released in advance. Where is the anticipation with an episode ending on a cliffhanger and then it’s straight into plugging the subsequent episode with trailers galore? Stop dripfeeding us! Trailers are killing it. If the writing is good enough we’ll tune in next week. Heroes needs to start believing in itself again as a must watch show.
Remember the good old days before the internet and you actually had to wait a whole seven days before the next episode. The ‘Who shot JR?’ scenario in Dallas is a classic example. The British press didn’t spoil it for UK viewers. Now we can find out what colour Peter Petrelli’s underwear is months before he has even worn them in the season finale let alone broadcast. (NOTE: It is not yet another hidden power that Peter possesses; he can’t self clean his skids. He must put fresh pants on every day. His mother even dreamt it so there.)
November 6th, 2008 at 4:17 am
bryan fuller on the show? i think this man has that one time big time stroke of genius. he can create superb shows at the same time he can create crappy ones.
he created the premier episode of PD season 2 and it wasn’t so great.
but hey, i like heroes and pushing daisies if bryan fuller can save the show, okay then
November 6th, 2008 at 6:08 am
nedlovesme, Bryan Fuller already worked on Heroes in season 1.
November 6th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
The problem is they aren’t willing to fire much of the cast. They’ve got too many all-powerfuls, nobody seems to die, so there’s no real stakes anymore. They want to keep popular cast members;that works for soap operas, but not for the kind of storyline Heroes used to be.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:01 am
From an article in today’s New York Times:
“One bright spot, NBC executives say, is that while only about 8.3 million viewers have watched the show during its regular time slot, nearly 2 million more record and watch it within a week, according to Nielsen. That is one of the highest rates of DVR viewership gain among all shows on television. The show also is among the most-viewed online on NBC.com and Hulu.com, the site owned by NBC Universal and the News Corporation, parent company of the Fox network.”
Ummm, I thought execs didn’t care about DVR and Internet viewership?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/arts/television/10hero.html?ref=television
November 10th, 2008 at 11:10 am
Andrea, they may not really care, since it doesn’t affect ad revenue, but they are still going to pretend to care. It’s something that looks great, so they will spin it for all it’s worth.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Andrea, for me, PR coming from a network executive pimping DVR numbers and Internet usage is very separate than it actually being meaningful currently to business (ad sales revenue) or renewal decisions (not that I fear Heroes will be cancelled anytime soon).
To me, that’s just spin to sound better (I’d do the exact same thing in their shoes), but I don’t think it’s meaningful at all to the business.
November 22nd, 2008 at 9:56 pm
I missed Season 1 of Heroes until someone told me about it. When the DVD came out, I bought it and watched it non stop. It was like a novel you could not put down. I had pretty much dropped out of the couch potato scene years back, but Heroes put me back on the couch at least for 1 hr a week during Season 2.
I cant really comment if this move by NBC is the right one or not. I am a fan of the show regardless of how well it does, and I dont really pay attention to who writes/produces which episode.
What it seems to me is the show has not found the right areas to focus on and develop a season long plot. It seems like since Season 2, there has become this fascination with the past and elder generation of Heroes. We also waited all through season 1 for these people to find each other, form lasting friendships, aliances, and grudges. They sorta of accomplished that toward the end, but then they tore it all apart. Which is where i am lost on the show. If you find a group of people that are like you, why wouldnt you stick together? Misery loves company and there is strength in numbers.
The bad guys have figured this out. I dont know why the heroes wouldnt?
AND, i heard from a friend the next chapter will be called fugitives. Which means all the good guys will be on the run from the bad guys… which is a reverse level 5 game play (ie with the company hunting down the bad guys and putting them on level 5.) So once again, the heroes are going to be scattered and desperate to find one another.
That is the plot I think they need to kill. I dont care who they fire/hire. Just dont keep up with the same rinse and repeat drill.
December 6th, 2008 at 8:22 am
TMZ says:
November 3rd, 2008 at 12:51 pm
“I blame the fans because they keep sending Kring mixed signals. Everything he’s done so far has been to try and win the viewers back. I think that the show is much better than it was last season. Is it as good as Season 1? No, but then what show can top it’s magical debut? As good as Lost was last season, it still didn’t match it’s first season.”
In my response to that, Battlestar Galactica has definitely progressed in each season and with it the writing continues to better. In my opinion, it was poor managing of the producers and creator that led to a dismal second and third season. As a creator, the show is your baby, he shouldn’t be influenced by outside qualms as to where the show should go or however long to tell a story. I also agree that I prefer quality over quantity.
December 12th, 2008 at 7:27 am
The stupid short seasons and starting shows at odd times of the year is the problem.
People lose interest and find something else to do.