| Scoreboard |  |
 |
 |
 |
 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Total Viewers (million) | 8.13 | 5.53 | 4.46 | 4.03 | 1.04 |
| Rating/Share: Adults 18-49 | 1.7/6 | 1.7/5 | 1.3/4 | 1.5/5 | 0.4/1 |
Last night’s Dollhouse drew 4.2 million and 1.7/7, down from last week when it drew 4.7 million and a 2.0 rating with adults 18-49, and notably this was against repeats on the CBS lineup. Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles did not drop too much from last week, averaging 3.8 million and a 1.3 rating with 18-49s, but last week it was already very low.
Note Marc Berman reports 1.4/5 as the 18-49 demo rating share for TSCC. Hibberd reported a 1.3/5 earlier — I’ve gone with Berman’s number in the table below, I’m using Hibberd’s number because it makes more sense as far as the night’s averages for FOX. I won’t see the actual report until Monday, I’m not sure which is the right number, but either way it’s bad! Though as Bill notes in the comments, not so bad that it would likely get yanked before finishing its run.
Despite the repeats, CBS won the night both overall and with 18-49s and ABC was in second. NBC was third among viewers and fourth among 18-49s, and it was the opposite for FOX which was fourth overall and third among 18-49 year olds.
Show data table now included. Here are last Friday’s overnight numbers.
Full details:
| Time | Net | Show | Viewers (Millons) | 18-49 Rating/Share |
| 8:00 | CBS | Ghost Whisperer (R) | 8.35 | 1.9/6 |
| ABC | Wife Swap (R) | 4.09 | 1.4/4 | |
| NBC | Howie Do It | 3.97 | 1.1/4 | |
| FOX | Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles | 3.84 | 1.3/5 | |
| CW | Everybody Hates Chris | 1.42 | 0.5/2 | |
| 8:30 | NBC | Howie Do It (R) | 3.82 | 1.2/4 |
| CW | The Game | 1.18 | 0.5/2 | |
| 9:00 | CBS | Flashpoint (R) | 8.06 | 1.7/5 |
| ABC | Supernanny | 5.25 | 1.8/6 | |
| FOX | Dollhouse | 4.22 | 1.7/5 | |
| NBC | Friday Night Lights | 3.93 | 1.4/4 | |
| CW | 13: Fear is Real | 0.79 | 0.4/1 | |
| 10:00 | CBS | Numb3rs(R) | 7.99 | 1.7/5 |
| ABC | 20/20 | 7.27 | 2.0/6 | |
| NBC | Dateline | 5.57 | 1.6/5 |
Shows are sorted by viewers in each time slot.
Nielsen TV Ratings: ©2009 The Nielsen Company. All Rights Reserved. Source Marc Berman/Mediaweek.
Definitions:
Fast Affiliate Ratings: These first national ratings, including demographics, are available at approximately 11 AM (ET) the day after telecast, and are released to subscribing customers daily. These data, from the National People Meter sample, are strictly time-period information, based on the normal broadcast network feed, and include all programming on the affiliated stations, sometimes including network programming, sometimes not. The figures may include stations that did not air the entire network feed, as well as local news breaks or cutaways for local coverage or other programming. Fast Affiliate ratings are not as useful for live programs and are likely to differ significantly from the final results, because the data reflect normal broadcast feed patterns. For example, with a World Series game, Fast Affiliate Ratings would include whatever aired from 8-11PM on affiliates in the Pacific Time Zone, following the live football game, but not game coverage that begins at 5PM PT. The same would be true of Presidential debates as well as live award shows and breaking news reports.
Rating: Estimated percentage of the universe of TV households (or other specified group) tuned to a program in the average minute. Ratings are expressed as a percent.
Share (of Audience): The percent of households (or persons) using television who are tuned to a specific program, station or network in a specific area at a specific time. (See also, Rating, which represents tuning or viewing as a percent of the entire population being measured.)
Time Shifted Viewing – Program ratings for national sources are produced in three streams of data – Live, Live+Same Day (Live+SD) and Live+7 Day. Time shifted figures account for incremental viewing that takes place with DVRs which are currently in approximately 24.4% of all U.S. TV households. Live+Same Day (Live+SD) include viewing during the same broadcast day as the original telecast, with a cut-off of 3:00AM local time when meters transmit daily viewing to Nielsen for processing. Live+7 Day ratings include incremental viewing that takes place during the 7 days following a telecast.
For more information see Numbers 101.
Dollhouse actually held up better than I was expecting, considering the WOM it seemed to be getting. Nick C. claims that it is still good for a second season at 1.7 (at least I think that’s what he said) so we’ll see if it can keep this up.
No… TSCC! I going to cry…
Is this a joke Julia? Maybe CW would renew a show with those numbers. It’s time to face reality brutal as it is
Julia, please stop editing the post now, so I can update it!
DH numbers are similar to those for Don’t Forget The Lyrics, but the game show is cheaper to produce.
I’m not! It wouldn’t let me in. Just make sure to change it to Friday.
Robert, I’m just going by what Nick said.
NOOOO!!!!!! DOLLHOUSE IS AN AMAZING SHOW please no
I think a demo 1.3 is within the “keep it on for the rest of the season” range for TSCC.
TSCC is definitely over after season 2, but will we even see all the episodes? On the DVD sure, but on Fox?
I’m very sad about this, but I can accept the reality that these numbers are simply bad.
Thats not bad considering Dollhouse is on Fridays but for the people who did miss it, you didn’t watch an amazing episode but when you watch it online you will know why you should keep watching Dollhouse !
I feel bad for Joss Whedon. The guy has the worst luck ever and can’t get a break. He’s a brillant guy and has a hardcore fanbase but his shows never last.
at least TSCC didnt drop. i was expecting 3 million. at least it was closer to 4.
Don’t you mean friday ratings?
ohhhhhh.
I actually thought that Dollhouse was much better last night, and I liked it. I really hoped that people would give the show more of a chance instead of just watching one episode and giving up hope.
Wait, this is fabulous news about Dollhouse. Some of you are just looking at it the wrong way. This means that it will cancelled soon, and then Joss Whedon can do something—-anything—-else. I can’t wait for whatever he does next. You may think I am being facetious, but I am a huge fan of his, and I am bummed this show blows. This quicker it is cancelled, the quicker he moves on to something that cannot help but be significantly better.
Stop watching Dollhouse now!!! Free Joss Whedon!!!
Excuse me now while I go watch my Firefly DVDs.
Joss is a overrated crap
except Firefly (which i liked) all his other shows are Below average and are meant for teenage audience who dream about vampires falling in love and stuff LOL
Plain stupid
I thought Dollhuse last night was really good. It was Much better than the pilot. I hope it builds on it’s audience in the next couple weeks. From what I read ,the show gets much better in quality from here on out.
How ironic is it that T:SCC does a episode about a funeral, and the ratings last night put the final nail in the coffin for the show? lol
Bye Bye Dollhouse
i would never understand what is so much to like in Whedon’s shows ???
Buffy – Tried to watch it..but felt like watching a Low budget B movie with Horrible acting
Firefly – Good… but not good enuf
I hope Nick C is right that the 1.7 is enough for Dollhouse, I want this show to continue!! The way Boyd just shot that guy in the leg… twice! These people don’t mess around. It was a very good episode, got even a few laugh out of me. And if it’s true what people are saying, that it gets better, then bring it on.
One more Friday before Sweeps. It will be interesting to see whether FOX will keep the Friday shows or pull them for March?
bye-bye dollhouse! you wont be missed..
‘The guy has the worst luck ever’
You’re kidding, right? It’s ten years since he had a hit, Fox commissioned Firefly knowing it was going to be a hard sell, couldn’t get anyone to watch it; commissioned a movie version that cost twice what it made at the box office; then commissioned him *again*. Meanwhile, on the strength of a show that nicked all the best bits from the X-Men comics, he gets to write X-Men comics … handing them in when he felt like it, taking three years to tell a story you could tell in an issue and they’re *still* commissioning comics from him.
I’d *love* to be that unlucky.
Look at what’s wrong with Dollhouse – it’s not Fox’s fault. They’ve given it every chance, a really soft timeslot, allowed reshoots and revamps. The problems are way more basic than ‘the execs messed it around’ – the execs aren’t telling Dushku to play it expressionless or sending them notes telling them the dialogue needs to suck and the plotting can’t make any sense (’I want a challenging target … so I’ll drug a twenty five year old girl’).
Whedon’s the son of a Hollywood scriptwriter, he started out making big mainstream things that worked, like Roseanne and Toy Story. He should stop listening to the fans that treat everything he does like it’s Sgt Pepper.
Joss, you’re not reading this, but the next time you’re thinking about a project, if, at any point, it crosses your mind that it’s got potential for a cult following – throw it in the bin, start again. Play to your strengths, not to your sycophants, because your adoring fans are the worse thing that ever happened to you.
Bye Bye Dollhouse
Good riddance i say
Agreed that last night’s Dollhouse much better than the pilot. Hopefully it can maintain this level of quality for as long as it’s on.
Everyone knows ratings go down in week 2, and then in week 3 they go up, up, up!! Some day historians will look back on this week and call it the Little Dip-per because it was the only week the ratings dipped!! Everyone I know thinks this show is the awesomest awesome that ever awesomed!! And those who don’t–like the people who walk away when I hand out fliers about the show–they don’t matter!! AT ALL!! The critics who don’t like the show don’t matter either!! Critics have no right to criticize Joss!!
Plus what matters isn’t how many people are watching, but WHO is watching!! And FOX said that’s MEN! Men are definitely more important than everyone else!! The audience is YOUNG men!! RICH, young men!! Rich, young, VIRILE men!! I bet rich, young, virile men like Chris Brown love this show!!
No one would dare tick off Joss by cancelling the show, because that might mean he might abandon TV completely for movies (oh no!!)!!. Of course, he’ll definitely succeed if he does that, ‘cause he’s written blockbusters like Titan A.E., and the movie version of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and Alien: Resurrection, and a few lines from X-Men!! (The best lines, obviously!! Without them the movie would’ve flopped!!)
Dollhouse is the best thing since the dawn of time!!
OMG, Dollhouse is bad. What drama school did that actress go to? And how can anyone that like her performance have there heads crewed-on straight?
Sarah Connor/Terminator suffered from beign BORING last night. I like this show, but being boring is unforgiveable. They need to re-read Jim Cameron’s screenplay for Terminator and the T2. That guy knows writes ferocious and funny. Wish he was writing the show. I almost fell asleep during that whole funeral thing. And the Skynet UFO reveal I saw coming from the first episode. The writing is tired. Wake up writers. Reverse expectation. Stop writing formula.
‘The way Boyd just shot that guy in the leg… twice! These people don’t mess around.’
Yeah, that was stupid, unrealistic on every level and offensive, wasn’t it?
Dollhouse is better than sopranos
i hope Dollhouse stays
u know why u guys hate dollhouse….ill tell you…you get so wrapped up into this josh guy and critics 1.) never herd of the guy 2.) you shouldnt give a shit what critics say if YOU like it WATCH it
Wow, I never knew how much hatred a show gets just because it doesn’t make 19 million viewers like The Mentalist does. Really pathetic.
Joss’s biggest fan ever i really ( and i can’t stress this enough) Dollhouse is not better than sorpranos. I personally think Fox will keep and air Dollhouse cos then it can syndicate (?) it and then at least sell the season internationally if it ties the show up.
All of you criticize fringe just for not being the breakout hit and now dollhouse. Do you people work for CBS?
Sam why do you need to change your nick to take a dig at Mentalist ? you feel alone son ?
Dollhouse is God-awful. It makes FRINGE look like CITIZEN KANE. But to those who watch AMERICAN IDOL instead of LOST – what can I say?
Um.. Playe what about awesome shows like Mad Men or Being Human (UK Show) they’re loved and they are definiately not massive hits (depends on Being Human=0.9mil but for a small network). Plus i think its just as bad to say everyone hates the show just because it doesn’t get 19mil: by the way i hate the DH actress and i hate most CBS crime shows so i find myself to be neutral.
Wonder if there are more posts on the show (quality and people not liking) than on the numbers??? with shows like DH and remember the Dirty Sexy Money arguments (with the guy who worked inside the show) it seems like shows like Dollhouse you either hate or love.
Wifeswap was a repat:
http://thefutoncritic.com/listings.aspx?date=02/20/09&filter=repeats
I don’t see why people feel the need to hate on Joss like that.
If you don’t like his show then get over it and stop making yourself feel better by putting others down.
It’s aannnooyying.
And kinda mean.
(for your Joss’ Biggest Fan… incase you didn’t catch that)
i mean shows like Dollhouse that fail and most people hate always have these sort of arguments: FRIDAYS LIKE THE FUN POST DAY!!!!!! Except its not.
i feel bad for TSCC
this is the last season , i am gonna miss it
Dollhouse is not amazing, but it has potential. The second episode was a marked improvement over the first, and hopefully the show crawls closer to having the trademark Joss wit (even if it needs be more subtle since the tone is heavier).
Do you know when we might get half-hour data for Dollhouse, and 18-34 #’s?
Friday Night Lights deserves much better than that
it is one of the best shows on Air in my opinion
I love how you all base the success of a show after two episodes. Some TV shows out there took almost a whole SEASON to get a lot of viewers (Take the CBS comedies, for example).
If you don’t like the show, don’t watch it. Pretty simple.
Dollhouse is gone. FOX can use the cheaper Dont Forget The Lyrics for the same exact results. Plus this week was an all repeat CBS lineup, if its new next week, the numbers will be even lower. With the AYSTA5G and DFTL “family lineup”, FOX can put a dent in ABC’s “family lineup”.
Fin, read all of the artcles when fringe first aired. Even Fringe got bashed while everyone is praising The mentalist. Like i said, if the show doesn’t get 19 million, its not hit and not worth watching.
as far as Dollhouse goes aah well i never really liked any Joss whedon shows
By the way, Everybody Hates Chris and The Game were repeats.
flashpoint repeat got double the viewers than DH new episode
just WOW
Playe, People bashed it for not being a massive number puller, and a few are entitled to hate Fringe if they want but like Dollhouse there were and are people who like the show. There’s a difference between everyone and people. Plus you didn’t read my first comment: Mad Men isn’t a hit with veiwers but it is with critics so??
Ryan, you are the reason why we have “Joss’s Biggest Fan.”
Julia read my mind. “Dullhouse” didn’t fall as much as I was expecting it to considering the bad word of mouth and the show itself being bad. Although I wouldn’t bet the house that it’s done falling. “Flashpoint” is new next week…
When I see ‘DH’ I always think of Desperate Housewives
I can see Dollhouse living out its first season on anything above 1.5, because it’s paid for now and it doesn’t do significantly worse than previous time slot occupants, but what would be the reasoning behind renewing it on those numbers? Not saying it absolutely can’t pick up steam later, but if it doesn’t, why would you think 1.7 and 4 million viewers makes for a good renewal argument.
Well, considering Dollhouse is #1 on I-Tunes, i think we may possibly see this back for another season, but not Termanator, that show has been going down since it premire. It’s a gonner!
Consideing iTunes sales are not important, Dollhouse is dead.
‘I love how you all base the success of a show after two episodes’
How many episodes should we wait?
Hey apparently DH grew over the hour: what were the numbers?
Well Fin, any show that doesn’t pull 19 million viewers is likely to be bashed, right?
No matter how you spin it, Dollhouse is a loser.
Well last week DOLLHOUSE was 2nd overall in the C3 listings behind 20/20. This week it should be tied for first or in second.
That is all FOX is going to care about. Now when new shows come back it’s going to be in trouble if it doesn’t build on its audience. I also hear it did well for HULU meaning around $1M in revenue for the season from that if the numbers hold to what they’re expecting.
I think DOLLHOUSE is in an ok position. TSCC however… it is very possible the show will be replaced before finishing out. Bill makes a decent point about previous shows getting a 1.4 and 1.5 in that slot for FOX. However FOX is sitting on DOLLHOUSE which is getting numbers that are on the verge of being what they want. If they stick with TSCC it might be too late by the time PRISON BREAK comes and provides a better lead in for DOLLHOUSE.
We all knew DOLLHOUSE would drop. FOX knew it. We knew it. So now it’s at 1.7. It has to hold out there. If it drops to a 1.6 or 1.5 the show will definitely not be renewed. The 1.7 means the show has a fighting chance. If it steadies at 1.7 and can build up to a 1.8 or 1.9 by seasons end it will likely get picked up for a 2nd season.
The way C3 numbers went last week every show DROPPED in the demo by .1 or as much as .3. DOLLHOUSE on the other hand went UP in the demo by .2. So it had a 2.2 in the demo last week, while all other shows were below it but 20/20. This week if it even goes up only .1 to a 1.8, that 1.8 should be enough for a tie for 1st or a 2nd place finish. FOX isn’t going to complain about that.
People need to remember the overalls don’t matter. The demo does.
Yeah, unless Dollhouse starts growing, which it probably wont, there will not be a second season. I’m a Joss fan, I’ve enjoyed the first two episodes, I will continue watching the rest of the season, but it’s obvious it wont be renewed, not unless FOX tries it in another timeslot.
And I gotta say, all the Dollhouse venom is making me laugh. Why anyone is happy a show is doing bad is beyond me. Did Dollhouse steal your lunch money as a kid or something? It’s a tv show!
You’re the loser, RJ.
Playe, there was no need for that. It’s a fact, Dollhouse didnt do good last night. If FOX wanted it to do well, they would of placed it on Mondays where they originally had it. They are just letting it die.
Well, FOX did manage to beat NBC in the demo, so it’s not a complete loss…
Dollhouse did slightly less than what I expected (I figured a 1.8). I expect it to fall again next week (1.5-ish). It will get to finish out its 13 episodes, but I wouldn’t hold my breath for a second season.
20/20 is back down to its normal levels after last week’s huge jump.
Flashpoint got similar numbers for this week’s repeat as last week’s new episode. I’m not usually one to blame scheduling for lower ratings, but the random switching back and forth between new and repeat episodes and next month’s basketball preemptions aren’t doing Flashpoint any favors.
playe
does battlestar galactica pull a 19 million ?
still it is liked by fans and critics alike the reason is simple
it is 100 times better than Fringe
and for god’s sake stop posting that annoying line over and over again will ya ?
You get to number one on iTunes with 20,000 sales.
4.2 million viewers plus being number one on iTunes = 4.2 million viewers.
It’s network television. Fox will make more from one car company
placing one commercial on during Dollhouse than they’ll ever make
from all the iTunes sales ever. That’s the truth of it. Number
one on iTunes means nothing, at all. No, honestly it doesn’t.
Now, if you were a car company, everything else being equal, are
you going to want 5.5 million people to see that advert or 4.2
million? Because what Fox usually puts on in that slot gets
5.5 million.
“Well, FOX did manage to beat NBC in the demo, so it’s not a complete loss…”
Hehe! Not that hard to do.
You can’t expect it to grow in the Friday night time slot.
I don’t see reason why it WON’T be renewed. If T:TSCC can be renewed for a second season, so can DH.
So much anger…
TSCC did good it’s first season though. I think it averaged in the 9-10 millions.
“I’m not usually one to blame scheduling for lower ratings, but the random switching back and forth between new and repeat episodes and next month’s basketball preemptions aren’t doing Flashpoint any favors.”
I agree. Plus, I dont even think CBS has started airing the second season of the show yet. Most of those episodes are from the leftovers of season one.
I don’t know, the last episode of Fringe was absolutely phenomenal. But, the point is it took 14 episodes for that show to find its footing! So, all of you bashing Fringe, you obviously haven’t seen the last few episodes! Anyway, those are not good numbers for Dollhouse!
well, jimmy, have you even seen an episode of fringe? Guess not.
The numbers are marginal at best. They aren’t a death sentence nor are they a saving grace. The only thing that is certain about Fox’s friday night line up is that SCC is not coming back for a third season based on the current numbers. If Dollhouse can maintain it’s current numbers the entire first season will air on FOX. If it can improve it’s numbers, especially the DEMO then there is a strong argument for bringing it back for season two. The key thing to remember about the demo is that it’s the demo that buys shit. Which means they will buy season 1 on DVD and season 2, 3 , 4 etc. While the itunes sales have no particular relevance, the sellability (yeah I made it up) of a show on DVD does definitely affect whether or not a network will keep it around even though it has marginal numbers.
Also I want to point out that Dollhouse didn’t have an official pilot. In lieu of filming a standard pilot, FOX ordered 7 episodes and spent the pilot budget on building the Dollhouse set. Because of this, production costs started out lower than on most scripted television shows. I will however concede the fact that filming a second first episode probably didn’t help their budget, but I don’t think Dollhouse is in as deep a financial hole as everyone thinks it is.
DOLLHOUSE is not dead. REALITY:
Overall numbers are worthless. TV networks make their money off advertisements. The adverts are based on the C3 listing. C3 is COMMERCIALS watched over a 3 day period (counting DVR usage). C3 is based on the 18-49 Demo.
So when people on here say incredibly stupid things like “flashpoint repeat got double the viewers than DH new episode… just WOW,” it’s incredibly off base. They both scored the exact same in the demo. So when either network is negotiating prices on advert time slots, they’re going to be similar.
DOLLHOUSE also uses “Remote Free TV,” which is only 60 second and 90 second commercial breaks. FRINGE does the same thing. So far both shows get higher demo scores on the C3 list than they score on “Live + SD.” The vast majority of other shows either stay the same or drop .1. However some shows like FOX’s previous Friday night lineups drop about .2 or .3. So FOX is feeling good about DOLLHOUSE.
The 1.7 DOLLHOUSE got last night is higher than the best nights of the shows previously aired in its time slot.
TSCC on the other hand is getting lower demos than the shows it replaced in its time slot.
Steve Jeffers,
You’re a perfect example of not understanding ratings. If you think DOLLHOUSE did worse than the normal fare on FOX. The overall numbers don’t matter. They never matter except to overall “rankings,” listed every week and then repeated for PR purposes. The DEMO is all that matters. There are also secondary demos that can boost CPM (copy per mile, or basically think of it as “cash per thousand,”) those demos are the 18-34, 18-34 female, 18-34 male. If the guys here printed those numbers you’d likely find out that DOLLHOUSE has higher numbers in that range than FLASHPOINT. So FOX would get more money per advert than FLASHPOINT. Even though FLASHPOINT gets nearly twice as many overall viewers. So if DOLLHOUSE makes more money per advert than FLASHPOINT which is the more important show in the eye of the networks?
DOLLHOUSE.
To the people who think Dollhouse is safe with the anemic ratings it’s getting:
You’re all delusional. The show is a ratings bomb, even with the lower expectations that go with airing on Friday nights. Ratings are not going to improve next week. DH will fall to 3.8 million viewers next week, and that will be enough for Fox to pull the plug. Gone after week 3.
Well, as much as I love TSCC (My Tivo’s top priority show), last night’s episode was rather lame. An hour of boredom, followed by 30 seconds of excitement at the end. I really wish they would get the story moving along, like they did in season one.
RJ, you seem to be in the same boat as Steve Jeffers. How is finishing the night the 2nd biggest show in the demos on C3 “not doing well?”
That is how they make their money. That is all the networks care about. If a show had 14 million viewers but a 1.9 in the demo on a Tuesday Night, always staying in the top 20 for the week would a Network call that a success? Nope, they’d cancel it. This has happened in the past. It happened in the 90s with an ABC show, which I can’t remember the name of right now. All they care about is demo.
Right now DOLLHOUSE is looking ok for a season 2. If they drop to a 1.5 (possible) next week it’s over. If they drop to a 1.6 it’s not good. If they stick at 1.7 they’ll be ok. They will have a fighting chance. If they build up to a 1.8 or 1.9 or even match the premiere’s 2.0 they’ll be around next season. Because it’s Friday Night, and those demos are good enough to be a top money maker for Friday Night.
Fox is probably feeling OK about Dollhouse, but ‘good’ is going to be pushing it.
They commissioned a show that was meant to be a solid midweek lead-in and mainstream hit, like House and 24. It’s not in that league, even if you strip it down to just the 18-49 demographic. It’s just not going to bring in the Emmys or Golden Globes for them. Going off the reviews last week, it’s not exactly bringing them critic love. It has ‘buzz’, in the sense that people are talking about it, but what’s being said isn’t exactly flattering.
In our heart of hearts, like Fox, we know the show’s a dud. Fringe isn’t exactly a home run, but it’s manifestly *better* than Dollhouse, at every level.
Dollhouse just about holds its head above water on a problem day, against weak opposition. I wouldn’t pre-order the season two boxset just yet.
JT, you’re the delusional one. You seem to think overall numbers matter. They don’t. All that matters is the 18-49 demo score. That is it. As long as DOLLHOUSE continues to finish the night 2nd overall on the C3 list (which is a sure thing again for this week) it is a keeper. See it makes more money per advert than those CBS shows. That is all that matters.
Your fascination with the overall numbers is what has you not understanding how Kevin Reilly from FOX can be telling DOLLHOUSE producers that things are looking good.
Hey, chillax. Dolhouse is doing fine for a Friday night. At least much better than Terminator. It’s not a complete downer. At least it held its 4 million audience.
Playe
yes i watch that show and i have seen all the episode aired till date
btw it is good…. but not as great Quality as other sci-fi shows
but still it is good for casual viewing
Nick, here’s the question. let’s take TSCC out of the Friday equation because its demo numbers aren’t good. And for discussion purposes let’s take C3 out of the picture. Let’s say FOX thinks it could average a 1.5 demo every Friday if it ran repeats of Bones and House regularly and let’s say there is another show (not TSCC). What’s better for FOX — airing repeats that it already paid for anyway and getting a 1.5, or new programming that gets a 1.7?
I’m not seeing the return of Dollhouse next year at these levels, regardless of the C3. of course Dollhouse C3 is good due to limited interruptions but I hear the premiums aren’t that great and last night’s episode seemed to have even fewer commercials than an episode of Fringe.
Steve Jeffers, all FOX cares about is Friday’s ratings. They don’t care about WHAT IF scenarios of it doing those numbers on a Monday. They care about the numbers it gets on Friday. Cost wise it’s one of their least expensive scripted shows. So all they care about is how GOOD is it on Friday.
Is finishing 2ND on Friday for 2 straight weeks good or OK? It’s good. It’s their best Friday finish in years.
Do they feel good about Friday Night as a whole? No. They’re pretty upset and DOLLHOUSE isn’t in that equation. TSCC has slumped and they are not happy at all. They were calm last week, but you could feel that they were upset. I guarantee Monday isn’t going to feel that way talking to them. They’re going to be fired up about the low numbers for TSCC.
If they could find a show that gets 1.7 in the same time slot they will switch it out. They have to be strongly considering moving up PRISON BREAK.
I think Nick C. is right about that! Also, how well did it do Nick C. in the male demographic.
Nick C., why don’t they just air House repeats preceding Dollhouse on Fridays?
To give a more recent example of TV cancellations, there was a show on ABC on Friday night in 2007 called Women’s Murder Club. It actually had pretty good, if not on occasion really good, overall ratings but it was getting a horrible demo rating. It scored really high with the over 49 crowd and with women but not so much with the highly sought after 18-34 male demo that all advertisers want.
I used to also think that the overall numbers were what the networks wanted but Nick C. makes a great point, if you have 10 millions viewers it doesn’t matter if you’re getting a terrible demo rating. If your show can’t sell advertisements then it won’t last. End of discussion. If total number of people watching your show is low but they are the right number of people then the show has a chance.
I wouldn’t say Dollhouse is even on thin ice yet. I think there is the potential for that to happen but as of now no.
‘Steve Jeffers, You’re a perfect example of not understanding ratings.’
I’m an advertising buyer. So even if you’re right, you’re screwed, I’m afraid.
Yeah, young men are the main target audience for a lot of advertising. They’re also one of the groups least likely to be in on Friday nights. Other groups of people do buy things, too, of course. Supernanny’s got a great, focused, demographic – young parents and doting grandparents. Ker-ching.
Dollhouse is absolutely on the knife-edge. If it holds, and Fox don’t have anything better knocking around, it’ll get to the end of the season, but they’re bound to have something better for next year. And the ratings aren’t going to hold. The show’s not strong enough, even in the special, weak slot Fox have found for it.
Nick C, you seem to be banging your head against a wall here but thanks for the explanations. I am interested more in the numbers than debating quality. Regarding C3, how exactly is it determined that someone watches a commercial on a dvr 3 days from now?
Thanks
Nick C, Last week you said maintaining a 2.0 would “make FOX have a tough decision” for renewal. This week, you say a 1.7 will make it OK for renewal and a 2.0 seems like a lock. If it gets a 1.5 next week, will you be saying that is the threshold?
Also, the C3 ratings are much more a result of the limited ad experiment than anything having to do with Dollhouse. You put that same setup with Flashpoint or any other show and the results would be the same. It doesn’t show that the show itself is valuable, only that people are less likely to fast forward through 90 seconds of ads than they are through 4 minutes of ads.
Gwaaaa…
Nick C, what did you say the chances were of TSCC getting picked up by the CW or SCI-FI now for a third season?
Actually Nick C for international sales (which are now becoming more and more important in TV: with shows selling international before national sometimes)and syndication if i were buying i would look for a show that could pull veiwers. DH has to show yes it can get good 18-49 demos but also that it can used overseas: but if only 4mil watch it in America (yes its on a friday) but what will other broadcasters say. As the UK and especially Canada become powerful players in the success of a show: as shows often need international airings to make up the costs of shows (now an employement method of studios that don’t get enough fees from networks). The BBC which only looks at the overall veiwership as it is publicly funded means that a show like DH would not be picked by the BBC (maybe the low level BBC3) because it can’t prove its a show that can be branded to wide audiences. So yes overall veiwership for a struggling show does count. Especially seeing as say ‘Heroes’ gets $800,000 per episode from the BBC which pays for 20% of the budget. Won’t cable networks and international broadcasters look at veiwership: not always the 18-49 specially in the UK seeing as for channels like C4 and E4 (which are big america show importers) the main demo is 16-34. So yes for Dollhouse the 18-49 is important for FOX but so is veiwership! At least i think.
‘Is finishing 2ND on Friday for 2 straight weeks good or OK?’
Something of a biased spin on the numbers.
It tied for second with Flashpoint in one key demographic.
Who wins that tie? Dollhouse is only in its second week. Flashpoint was a year-old repeat of a Canadian import. And you can ignore all the other demographics if you want … but *twice* as many people watched the show in total and it’s very disingenuous to pretend that makes no difference to either the network or the advertisers. Call the tie for Flashpoint.
Dollhouse came a very close third. Against *really* soft opposition.
Dollhouse isn’t doing so badly they need to kill it now, but it’s absolutely on the cusp of that. If it’s found its level, great. It hasn’t, though. It’ll drop again next week, and it’ll clearly be third in the slot. All things being equal, I’d be amazed if they showed all thirteen.
Now, now, Holly. Nick did change his tune about the required demo for Dollhouse by Saturday afternoon last week. He never did explain why he had so completely changed his mind when I asked, but the threshold has been decreasing steadily since his first post on it last week. It wasn’t just because he saw the numbers this week.
Robert, the question is what does FOX want out of Friday? Do they want it to be a dead night where they throw cheap crap up or do they want to try and make it a decent night for them?
Kevin says it’s make a night out of it and always mentions X FILES. How do you do that? Well if the new show is going to pull 1.7s (and staying steady from here out at 1.7 puts them on the lowest possible end for being picked up) that makes you ask the question: Can it do better?
It’s a Sci Fi show, it’s a serial. These types of shows either start off big and drop off to mediocrity in numbers or they start small and slowly build. X-FILES and BRISCO are a good example of how FOX reacted correct in the past. BRISCO had bad numbers, X-FILES had just barely acceptable demo numbers for the night but horrible overalls. They dropped BRISCO and kept X-FILES.
They aired repeats of X-FILES over the summer, and made a big effort at the Sci Fi conventions to get some fans. They aired the season 2 premiere in its entirety at SAN DIEGO COMIC CON and the 2nd season premiere had a huge increase in viewership, and the demo nearly tripled over the course of the season. Meanwhile the overall nearly doubled, and the result was a middling overall finish for the season compared to almost dead last the season before. The show also found its footing in season 2 and got a lot of attention critically (Despite being received in a mediocre fashion for season 1 where they had no idea where they were going with it). Season 3 saw the show on Friday become a top 20 show overall and top 10 in demo. That meant a move to FOX Sunday.
Right now DOLLHOUSE is mediocre to above average. The show isn’t sure how it’s going to get to where they want to take it much like THE X-FILES was in the same situation. So if the show does ok in the demo and can keep ending the night 2nd or even 4th overall in the demo I think it has a shot and here is why:
DVD and Conventions. It is possible if the show does actually continue to get better (and I keep hearing the later episodes are GOOD from people who rarely throw out the word like me) that they can build on the fan base over the summer.
So yeah, I say bring it back. Try hard to build the fan base over the summer, and hope that Season 2 premiers with bigger numbers than Season 1 ever got. If it can come back for Season 2 and routinely do better than 2.0 it’s a good thing for FOX. If the quality continues to improve then they might be able to make some waves for a Friday Night.
Ah, I didn’t see the other comments on it. I just remember what he had in last week’s thread.
You’re all talking ratings re: DOLLHOUSE… numbers… blah-blah-blah. Truth is, I haven’t seen a worse performance by a female lead in a prime-time series in a long, long time. Dusku? What’s-her-name? It was shockingly self-conscious. Every time she steps in front of the lens it throws me out of the story. Yikes, is she some producer’s kid? How did she get cast? In retrospect, this makes JJ Abram’s decision to cast Tove in FRINGE look like genius. Doesn’t anyone else see that Dusku/what’s-her-name is a stunningly bad actor?
I think FOX is going to stick with TERMINATOR/DOLLHOUSE COMBO -because they still want ot air their 4 or so episodes of Prison Break in April…I think FOX will leave it alone- the movie T-4 already bought air time for SARAH time slot.
It’s still around 4 million people – that’s 40 million in ticket sales when T-4 comes out in theaters.
DOLLHOUSE though not strong is hopeful…but I I don’t know if SARAH & DOLLHOUSE can’t beat lame reality tv Supernanny & Wife Swap then the problem has now become the public viewers…or they just lost the remote control.
But it says a lot about Neilson families…
Nick, if Dollhouse were pulling a 2.3 demo outright, I might buy that Fox viewed it as making something of the night. But, I’m not buying a 1.7 with 18-49s as being a substantial moving of the needle on “making something of the night” versus a 1.5 with repeats/inexpensive programming. I know that you are, but I am NOT buying that C3 is really a factor here.
Do I think it will be yanked off the air with these numbers? Certainly not. Do I think it will be back next year with these numbers? Certainly not.
The only hope for next year is that these numbers would improve, and I don’t see that as likely. I hear the show is MUCH better like 4 episodes from now, but it lost 15%ish among 18-49s from the premiere and ever getting those people back regardless of quality also seems unlikely.
Eliza Dushku is like a 2 octave singer stuck in a 4 octave musical production, but she isn’t actually as horrible as the stuff Abrams routinely pulls out of his bottomless pit of incredibly bad actresses. Just go back back further and look at Evangeline Lilly and in contrast to that Dushku might look good. Actually everyone might look good in that comparison.
Nah. Evangeline Lilly doesn’t chew up the scenery anywhere near as badly as Dusku. In fact, I’ll defend Lilly – I think she’s capable of complexity, whereas Dusku is all indicating. I’d guess you probably didn’t care for Garner in ALIAS – I thought she was great.
Dollhouse is in an interesting position and if it holds relatively steady from here on out its going to pose a difficult problem for Fox at the end of the season. As things stand right now the demo alone isn’t enough to secure the show a second season however when you factor in the C3 numbers on top of the success on iTunes and Hulu, which I would look at more as a sign of strong DVD sales to come more than anything else it starts to even itself out a little. It gets better still if you factor in lowered expectations because of its air date and if it can find its feet and start to win over critics before the end of the season it gets a little bit stronger still.
On the flip side of that you also have to remember that right now Fox have a lot of shows to bring forward to next year with none of their scripted line-up really bombing. For all the borderline ridiculous talk of them ‘under performing’ in the post-Idol slots Fringe and Lie To Me will both be back next year so will House, 24 and Bones. Presumably Fox will also be looking to launch new shows next season as well, which might ultimately result in them deciding that they’d prefer to pick a pilot up for a full season rather than green light a second season for Dollhouse.
I guess it might all come down to how serious Fox are about making Friday a viable night. Picking Dollhouse up for a second season and keeping it on Friday night (with a new and hopefully stronger lead-in) would likely send out the right message that they want to make this work. How many people aren’t watching Dollhouse now because they’ve been conditioned to think that Friday nights are the dumping ground for shows the networks don’t want people to see? Alternatively they might given its success with C3 and via other mediums (Hulu and iTunes) Fox might see potential to make Dollhouse a hit on another night and move it.
Holly, I changed my tune from talking with some one who would definitely know exactly what FOX wants. FOX doesn’t want greatness they want it to do OK on Friday Night, and use the summer to build on the fan base and increase hype. They keep pointing at THE X-FILES which had extremely similar ratings as DOLLHOUSE. Overalls that were incredibly poor and a demo that made it decent for a Friday. The first season also had many mixed reviews as the show was of extreme mixed quality. FOX seems happy with the quality of episodes coming out now (but not airing now).
So that is how I base my belief on the show’s staying power. Also, yes I understand the Remote Free would likely boost any show. However it is boosting only two right now. As it is, it is going to make DOLLHOUSE finish 1st or 2nd in : 18-49 demo, 18-34 demo, 18-34 male, and 18-34 female.
Steve Jeffers, how can an “advertising buyer,” make such incredibly false statements? SUPERNANNY is one of the least commercially watched shows on TV. They change the channel! Surely, you had to know that?
Also DOLLHOUSE has beat FLASHPOINT both weeks in the following demos: 18-49, 18-49 male, 18-49 female, 18-34, 18-34 male, 18-34 female, 12-24, 12-24 female, 12-24 male. So FLASHPOINT is watched by demos the advertisers don’t value well. So DOLLHOUSE’s adverts sell for more than FLASHPOINTs. What is more important? Who makes more money per advert or who is watched by more overall people?
‘Try hard to build the fan base over the summer’
Again this is crazy spin on the material. The difference is that the X-Files clawed its cult following out of being a genuinely innovative, clever show with great word of mouth.
Dollhouse *started* with the crazy comic convention cult fanbase built in. It’s almost a year to the day since the first ’save Dollhouse’ online campaign began. Whedon’s fans are already fervent, and he’s spent a year whipping them up over this show, which stars a whole bunch of his stalwarts and a couple of BSG people besides.
Last night is what Dollhouse looks like *after* they do what you say they need to do.
‘Abrams routinely pulls out of his bottomless pit of incredibly bad actresses.’
The worst regular actress ever in an Abrams production – and I’ll admit that’s saying something – was Amy Acker in season five of Alias. Yet she’s the best thing about Dollhouse.
Steve I think you’re missing the point Nick is trying to make. He isn’t saying that Dollhouse is the same as the X-Files (audience wise) but that Fox sees potentail for the show to follow the same path as X-Files and build up an audience on Friday nights over the summer if they stick with it and just let it run.
Robert, it’s all based on one thing: Is Kevin Reilly lying? If yes, you’re right. If no, I’m right.
I agree, I don’t see much movement up from here for the season. However, if they’re serious about building for something next season… X-FILES is a perfect example. It is in EXACTLY the same position. Both shows mediocre reviews. Both shows low overall numbers (I believe X-FILES finished 100 something out of 120 shows). Both have decent for the night only, demos. Both had their best episodes at seasons end in quality.
X-FILES is famous like CHEERS both are shows that should have been canceled after their first season with no reason at all to keep them around besides “quality got better at the end of the season.”
Sometimes these guys have to roll the dice. I look at FIREFLY. I know FOX doesn’t want another FIREFLY or FAMILY GUY mistake. DOLL HOUSE has the luck of being from the same mind as FIREFLY. So that boosts its chances for a 2nd season. FIREFLY never should have been canceled. Its numbers were extremely similar to X-FILES and DOLL HOUSE. However FIREFLY went on to sell massively in DVD sales. It is a constant money maker for FOX on DVD STILL. I don’t know if fans keep buying the set over and over again, but it’s consistently a top 200 seller.
So you have to think they’re thinking the DOLL HOUSE DVDs will sell. Likely introduce a newer audience to the show.
I don’t see how you can’t care about C3, since that is all that really matters. If the previous shows were getting a 1.3 average on C3 and DOLL HOUSE averages a 1.8…. that is a big enough difference to warrant thought of “can we improve the show’s audience over the summer?”
Again, that is what it is going to come down to. Can they grow the audience over the summer? I think the answer is likely yes, so they bite the bullet.
Regarding C3 ratings, I realize that C3 is the agreed-upon standard for commercial advertising sales rates. Still, Dollhouse may not be making enough money to justify renewal at current levels, even if it were scoring *first* place in C3 for its time slot. My reasoning:
1) A previous post on this website noted how the “Remote Free TV” concept may not be justifying sufficient price premiums to earn back the money lost by limiting the advertising minutes. With less than 5 million viewers, and less than a 2.0 in the 18-49 C3 rating, FOX may not be able to earn back their money on these few advertising minutes.
2) Even if Dollhouse pulls the best Friday night ratings in the C3’s of any network programming, it will still be a more expensive option on Fridays than other Fox offerings. Heck, it’s probably more expensive than CBS’s Canadian venture, Flashpoint.
Suppose FOX has three choices: they can air repeats, reality or game shows, and sell 20 minutes of cheap ads at typical Friday night rates. Alternately, they can invest in Dollhouse, possibly losing money, in the interest of building a good Friday night block and a Whedonesque-to-Joe-Blow audience base. Lastly, they can try moving Dollhouse to another night in an attempt build more audience, and keep trying the “Remote-Free” experiment. I sincerely hope FOX chooses something like option 2 here – invest and build. In reality, the most profitable option will likely be the first – repeats/reality/game shows/lots of cheap ads.
FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS is a phenomenal show and it’s a shame it’s not getting higher ratings. I hope this isn’t the last season.
‘Steve Jeffers, how can an “advertising buyer,” make such incredibly false statements? SUPERNANNY is one of the least commercially watched shows on TV. They change the channel! Surely, you had to know that?’
I know who watches Supernanny, I know what they’re likely to spend their money on, and I can guarantee they’ll be there in six weeks time.
‘So DOLLHOUSE’s adverts sell for more than FLASHPOINTs. What is more important? Who makes more money per advert or who is watched by more overall people?’
Dollhouse and Flashpoint both got 1.7. Flashpoint was watched by twice as many people – yeah, advertisers like 18-49 year olds, but Flashpoint’s delivering just as many of those *and plenty more people besides*. Those people might not spend as much money, but they still buy things. It was also cheaper for the network to show, so more profitable.
You can’t cut these numbers any way at all and have Dollhouse win this. And, I’ll make the point I did before – this is the *second week* of Dollhouse and *a year old repeat* of Flashpoint. I don’t know offhand if buying a slot in Dollhouse is more than Flashpoint – I do know it’s overpriced if it is, though.
Oh please Nick, I don’t care about the C3 for Dollhouse because it’s already been fairly widely reported that FOX isn’t making all the money back on Fringe w/limited commercials and is having a harder time selling premium ads for Dollhouse. I would care about C3 if Dollhouse ran the normal amount of commercials and jumped up, or if it was making very healthy premiums, but as I, Holly, and probably others have written, the only reason Dollhouse’ C3 is so good is because of limited commercial interruptions.
You have biases — what you think should happen, perhaps what you’d like to see happen. I don’t share your biases, I only care about being right
I might be wrong, but if I’m not, I don’t think it’s because Reilly lied, but rather that he interprets the performance (based on these numbers) of the show differently than you do.
cultz, I guess a large part of Dollhouse’s future is going to rest on how serious Fox are about making Friday nights a viable programming block. If they’re serious about it then Dollhouse will be back as long as it maintains current levels and wins critics round by the end of the season. If however they opt to give up on Friday nights because its too expensive to make it work then Dollhouse is going to be in a lot of trouble.
Steve, actually there is no spin. They either believe they can build on the audience over the summer or they don’t.
X-FILES and DOLL HOUSE are extremely similar:
1. Both aired on the Friday FOX death slot.
2. Both have horrible lead ins.
3. Both have horrible overall numbers.
4. Both received extremely mediocre reviews. THE X-FILES pilot wasn’t good.
5. Both used Sci Fi conventions to sell their concept before they even aired.
6. Both received mediocre but decent demo numbers for a Friday.
7. Both increased in quality in the 2nd half of their 1st season (this I’m going to have to give DOLL HOUSE the benefit of the doubt on, I hear it is “greatly improved,” so I believe the people telling me that).
8. Both based on their ratings should be canceled after their 1st seasons.
I obviously have a much better understanding of how X-FILES became a success than you do. There was nothing besides quality of episodes at seasons end that said “renew,” nothing. The ratings were horrible. They used SAN DIEGO COMIC CON and their first “alien seen,” episode to kick start season two.
If season two had started like season one ended, we never would have seen the show again.
I think DH is dead FOX started the performance before the economic crisis so it was in too deep and had no choice but should have aired DH in the fall of the 2009-2010 season if you ask me on a normal day not on a friday.
‘Fox sees potentail for the show to follow the same path as X-Files and build up an audience on Friday nights over the summer if they stick with it and just let it run.’
I understand what he’s saying – he’s wrong. This isn’t a show that’s going to sneak up on the people who would make it a cult hit, it’s been on their radar for years. The reviews this week show it’s not going to become a show like The Wire or Battlestar Galactica that no one watches except critics and opinion formers.
It *starts* with the fanbase. It’s in a cult slot, pushed as ‘by the maker of Buffy’, it’s been previewed and promo-ed at every comic convention. The Whedon fans don’t like it.
It’s going to have a ’slow build’? Fine … it’s ‘built’ by -15% this week. The word of mouth on the show is horrible.
started the ’show’
Robert, we agree on Remote Free TV. What we seem to disagree on is what FOX wants to do. Do they want a cheap Friday night, or do they want to try and build something?
I don’t think any show could premier on FOX and do well on a Friday night. I think it has to be built on. The only real question in my mind and what I hear being said by FOX is “Can we improve the numbers over the summer?”
Which also means, that DOLL HOUSE must level off and remain steady.
I’m a believer in “there is no such thing as a death slot,” and I think FOX could prove it with a little gamble. However DOLL HOUSE can’t sink more. If it does, it’s not going to get that gamble unless Reilly just “feels it,” like people did for CHEERS or X-FILES.
Nick where do you get all this insider info???? Do you work at FOX or something?
ARE PEOPLE FREAKIN RETARDED? NO FOX IS HOW COULD THEY EXPECT DOLLHOUSE TO SUCEED ON FRIDAY? HOW ARE THERE MORE PEOPLE WATCHING SUPERNANNY THAN DOLLHOUSE? IS EVERYONE REALLY THAT STUPID? GOSH I HATE PEOPLE. I HATE RATINGS…I HATE IT ALL…DOLLHOUSE IS GOOD AND I REALLY WANT IT TO SUCEED
Nick
your X Files comparison is totally absurd
season 1 had around 8-9 million (Double of Dollhouse) ..if XFiles had got the same figures as Dollhouse then it would have surely been cancelled No doubt about it
and the only reason they renewed XF was because the season finale episode got the highest ratings overall for that season
Nick, I’m not sure. I think I just see the landscape as very different now than it was when X-Files launched. If I’m FOX and I wanted to try to build something, based only on the last two weeks of data I would conclude, “We want to build something, but this isn’t it.”
I’m not at all surprised by the numbers for Dollhouse and I don’t see the numbers changing for the positive over the remainder of the airings enough to change the “we want to build something, but this isn’t it” assessment. I think FOX will say, “we tried, it didn’t work.” If you think FOX needs to give it more runway than 13 episodes to determine whether it’s working, and if it doesn’t that Reilly lied, we just view it differently.
Steve Jeffers, I’m pretty sure you’re an internet crazy. You claim to be an advertising buyer but have no knowledge at all of how it works. You claim that DOLL HOUSE had “years,” of promo work done. You claim “it’s been previewed and promo-ed at every comic convention.” Really? Which ones? They hadn’t shot a damn thing yet! They had no panels at San Diego. The first panel was at the NYC 2009 comic con which was what the same week as the premier?
You’re full of it. You’re one of those haters and liars on the internet who for whatever reason gets a kick out of misinforming the public. Tell us all, why do you do it? What kicks do you get out of it?
Friday (Dollhouse) ratings always bring a tear to my eyes: because i know someones going to break down.
Dollhouse i think is dead in another time maybe it could have survived but this isn’t when X-files and Cheers premiered Nick C. It premiered in a economic crisis and it flops (which it is and some are less happy about it than others = Tvmegafan) so i think FOX doesn’t have time for DH it just had no-where else to but it just like TSCC. ‘Its something new: we can build on it’ means its dead: networks only see profit and will not be prepared to build on a show.
The ratings are in there season 1 , 2 and 3 were on friday nights
http://x-files.host.sk/nielsens.php
Nick don’t change the subject and don’t insult crazy old Jeffers, wait was there a subject. By the way who do you get ur info from?? Do you work somewhere in ’showbiz’? Or is this a guestimate?
‘I obviously have a much better understanding of how X-FILES became a success than you do.’
No.
It was a good show, well-acted, cleverly written, and the network didn’t have high hopes for it or much else that was doing as well. So it got promoted. By then, it was a huge hit abroad (in the UK, particularly).
Dollhouse was *meant* to be a show that would be like Lost – a ‘cult’ show that was actually a mainstream smash. It was meant to get great reviews, a massive online buzz. It was originally planned to be in the same league as House and 24.
They downsized the ambition for it, decided that doing OK on Friday would be OK. But it’s had terrible reviews, the Whedonistas hate it, it’s against really soft opposition but still no one’s watching. Sky have bought it in the UK, meaning no one will see it there, either.
Even having lowered expectations, Dollhouse comes in at the low end of what they’d hoped.
But here’s the main thing: Dollhouse is not very good. It really isn’t. The lead performance is terrible, the scripting is mediocre. It’s a show that’s just not very good. It happens. Yeah, *if* it gets better and *if* people start watching, then it’ll be fine.
OK … you say ‘build the fanbase’. Where? Which comic convention wasn’t Joss at?
Jimmy, your memory is totally wrong. The first season of the X-Files was watched by nobody. It finished 102nd out of 118 TV shows. I just googled it.
My comparison is 100% accurate.
Sky One bought Dollhouse…EWWWWW… i thought that channel had taste.
Nick
did you check the link i gave ?
Fin, yeah I work in the industry.
NICK C X-FILES AIRED LIKE A FUCKING BILLION YEARS AGO: NOT TODAY: NOT IN A ECONOMIC CRISIS!: DOLLHOUSE IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. MAYBE ITS CRAPPPER. The comparison is they both aired on fridays that no biggy. The success needs these things:
- Primarily High 18-49: its doing pretty crap now.
- International success: broadcasters now rely on international broadcaster particullarily in the UK and Canada to buy a series to pay off the episode budgets for studios.
- Being able to be syndicated or re-ran: which i do see in Dollhouse but as its not popular only the Whedon’s would watch: which may be alot.
- High DVD sales.
OOPS BIG OVER-REACTION: Sorry for the swearing. Wow i reacted then… huh
Nick C, Dollhouse did have a panel at San Diego Comic Con. I do not claim any special insider knowledge or profession or whatever, but that bit misinformation is really not hard to prove wrong.
“They had no panels at San Diego. The first panel was at the NYC 2009 comic con which was what the same week as the premier?”
I’m almost positive that there was a Dollhouse panel at San Diego Comic-Con, with Joss Whedon, Eliza Dushku and Tahmoh Penikett I believe. But that’s somewhat besides the point since the real flaw in the argument being made is that by ‘build the audience’ Steve assumes Fox want to target ‘cult’ fans. Build the audience means just that, build the audience not how many comic fans can we get to watch this before we cancel it. He’s essentially arguing that The X-Files became a hit show because it was suddenly on the radar of ‘cult’ fans, which is backward logic to say the least. The X-Files was on the radar of ‘cult’ fans when it launched it became a hit show during its second season (and beyond) because Fox let it build an audience and expand upon that ‘cult’ following and that would be what they’re hoping will happen with Dollhouse. They already know the comic geeks are watching, but they want to expand that over the summer.
“I understand what he’s saying – he’s wrong. This isn’t a show that’s going to sneak up on the people who would make it a cult hit, it’s been on their radar for years.”
I’ll repeat what I said originally, Nick isn’t claiming that The X-Files and Dollhouse have the same audience or that Dollhouse is going to build the same audience that The X-Files did. The point he’s making is that he believes people within Fox see potential for Dollhouse to grow an audience on Friday nights if they let it air over the summer in the same way that The X-Files grew an audience on Friday nights over the summer. Whether that actually happens is open to debate but I can see the basic theory and its solid.
‘They had no panels at San Diego.’
I was at it. 1pm, Saturday July 19th 2008, the day after The Dark Knight came out:
http://io9.com/5026029/io9s-semi-annotated-picks-for-comic+con
OK … let’s take Io9. One site, not even a Whedon-specific one:
http://io9.com/search/dollhouse/
*191* stories tagged ‘Dollhouse’ in the last year. One every other day!
Here’s the first ’save Dollhouse campaign … from May last year:
http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/05/dollhouse-fans.html
This was one of the most-anticipated shows of the year in the fanosphere. The fanbase was won over … until they saw the show. Insult me all you want, it doesn’t alter the facts on this one.
Robert, we both agree it is highly unlikely to build on this season. The question is can it be built on over the summer?
Is Kevin lying when he says he wants to give the night a chance? He knows its best chance of growth is over the summer. He says it himself.
So the question is, does he really want to build a decent Friday or go cheap?
If it’s build a decent Friday a 1.7/1.8 will be enough to renew.
Fin, 1993 wasn’t an economic high point either.
I don’t understand why people don’t want Dollhouse to succeed. The show didn’t find it’s feet yet, but I think the concept they’re showing us has so much potential… And I liked “The Target” very much.
If it’s build a decent Friday a 1.7/1.8 will be enough to renew.
Nick, that’s where we disagree. We’ll see.
“It was a good show, well-acted, cleverly written, and the network didn’t have high hopes for it or much else that was doing as well. So it got promoted. By then, it was a huge hit abroad (in the UK, particularly).”
If memory serves (and it was a long time ago now) The X-Files wasn’t any of those things during its first few episodes. It got a lot better as the first season went on as everyone involved got comfortable with the basic concept and its potential scope but the first few episodes weren’t great at all. The X-Files did not debut as a complete and excellent show, it took time to get there.
idizzle, they had a presence at the comic con, but they promoted nothing without any footage, etc. Basically it was like an announcement. This can’t be compared to showing the pilot at the conventions like Jeffers claims. It was a “soft PR push,” and that was it. Obviously it was not “previewed and promo-ed” like Jeffers is claiming. It premiered at the NYC CC just like I stated.
Nick C,
Robert is absolutely right on this one, as are the commenters who note that X-Files premiered, it was a very different time. In short: That (X-Files) was then, this is now. Back then, the audience had not yet fractionated to the extreme degree that it has today due to cable programming. Back then, FOX was still a relative newcomer to broadcast television – they needed patience and creativity to build an audience for anything at all. It was pre-Idol days
.
As for Cheers, that’s a 180-degree different situation than X-Files or Dollhouse. NBC was building “must-see TV” comedy blocks in the 80’s and 90’s. They gave Cheers a chance to build, and it did. As Cheers drew to a close, NBC gave Seinfeld a chance to build – and Seinfeld still draws 5+ million people in cable and syndicated repeats! In both cases, these were sitcoms in prime time sitcom blocks. That’s not really comparable to a one hour action or sci-fi drama.
I suppose it is possible that Fox is ready to invest and build, and it’s trying the sci-fi angle on Fridays to do so. But I seriously doubt that economic reality will allow such an investment to occur this year.
Jeffers, oh now you’re an advertising buyer and were at the panel where you claim they previewed the show!!! There was no previewing of the show until the NYC CC. Sorry, but you’re an internet liar. Go spread misinformation somewhere else.
On an X-Files ratings note – its worth remembering that TV ratings were very different in 1993 when The X-Files debuted. For the record it finished 102 out of 118 shows for its first season. Not a hit.
Dude, you said they had no panels. Don’t act like I changed the rulesof the discussion.
Nick
did you check my link ?
clutz, CHEERS was before “Must See TV,” it was before the COSBY Show! They had nothing on Thursday night. It was the least watched TV show in America, finishing dead last in ratings. There was really no reason to renew it but a “gut feeling.”
The same could be said for THE X-FILES.
The difference DOLL HOUSE has is that its creator’s previous work with FOX showed that they pulled the trigger early. They got a lot of heat for it.
FOX is going to make money off of DOLL HOUSE so, if it keeps its numbers then renewal is a decent option. If it doesn’t build an audience over the summer then they’re still likely to make their money back through international sales and DVD. The show just won’t air all 13 of the season two order.
Saying it can’t compare because it’s 2009 and not 1993 is silly. It’s a similar situation. You either gamble and win, or play it safe and give up.
FOX has the strength now to gamble.
i just wanted to thank all of you commenters. The amusement I’m getting is distracting me from the flu.
“This was one of the most-anticipated shows of the year in the fanosphere. The fanbase was won over … until they saw the show. Insult me all you want, it doesn’t alter the facts on this one.”
The fanbase was won over until they saw the show? So we’re saying the 4.7 million people who tuned in last week are the entire ‘cult’ fanbase and that they all hated the show which is why 4.2 million of them returned this week? The numbers aren’t good but your logic is backward on this, you can’t claim that Fox wanted this to be a ‘mainstream cult hit’ and then claim that everyone was won over until 4.7 million people tuned in last week.
Uh-huh … so the producer, writer and star showing up for a special panel doesn’t count as promoting the show. I stand corrected. Yes, sorry, you’re utterly right about that one.
And, clearly, a show that gets 1.7 in the 18-49 group and nine million viewers even on a repeat week is infinitely less attractive to advertisers than one that gets 1.7 and four million on its second week. The scales have been lifted from my eyes.
Now those scales have gone, I see that Dushku *can* change the intonation of her voice and that the first two episodes were *brilliant* and made complete sense and all those newspaper reviews that said it was rubbish were actually meant to be read as ironic. I see, now, that Dollhouse is the most artistically and commercially successful television show not just of this year, but of all time and all future times. When it’s canceled, it will be literally impossible to explain why.
You were entirely right about everything. I apologize for doubting you.
I agree with Nick C on this one. If Dollhouse has 1.8 in the 18-49 demo as a season average on a Friday, with a lead-in like TSCC or PB (it won’t be much better, believe me) and DVD sales like Whedon, it’s probable it gets renewed.
Still, I think Fox should pull TSCC and put… something else! I think everything is better than TSCC ratings wise.
Julia, feel better. I think the comments are giving me the flu
idizzle, have you noticed how Nick C spins his comments to change the rules of the discussion. Nick C said “no panels.” When proven wrong, he spins to “soft promotion, no PREVIEWS.”
Nick C, you were wrong when you said “no panels at San Diego.” Admit that, please. As for “previewed and promo-ed,” that was a general comment by Jeffers. He never specifically stated that a preview was shown at San Diego. I see he posted links to clarify. I’ll check them. As a Jericho fan, I do remember the “save Dollhouse before it even premieres” news was out there as early as spring 2008. Save-the-show campaigns are always a blip on a Jericho nut’s radar
. So I’d have to agree that Dollhouse has been very well publicized for a long, long time now.
idizzle, I used poor wording. I was replying in regards to the statement that the show had been promoted for “years,” and previewed at panels all last year. It wasn’t. I said “there were no panels,” meaning “previewed at panels,” sometimes I reply way to quickly on here. I’ll work on taking the proper time to reply to such things in the future.
alex, how can X-files not be a hit if lasted for NINE years?
clutz, it’s not spin. It’s me not taking time to comment correctly. Being in a hurry writing… I’ll work on it. Heck I just wrote to idizzle and used “to,” instead of “too.” I really need to take my time writing here it appears.
“And, clearly, a show that gets 1.7 in the 18-49 group and nine million viewers even on a repeat week is infinitely less attractive to advertisers than one that gets 1.7 and four million on its second week. The scales have been lifted from my eyes.”
It depends entirely on who the advertiser is and how each of those demos individually break down. The fact that Flashpoint attracts x number of over 49’s isn’t going to mean a thing to a lot of advertisers who simply don’t care about that demo and aren‘t going to pay more to advertise during Flashpoint because that demo is there. By the same token the 18-49 itself breaks down into numerous other demos, which are in turn more and less attractive to advertisers.
There are several ways in which potentially Dollhouse can appear more attractive to advertisers than Flashpoint and at the same time there are just as many ways in which Flashpoint can appear more attractive than Dollhouse. Online sites like this cast extremely wide nets because that’s the data they get and it makes it incredibly difficult to judge the express value of any given show to advertisers beyond very general terms. In general terms an ad during Flashpoint is worth more than an ad during Dollhouse but that doesn’t mean its true in practice.
And as I’m sure Nick C will mention (if he hasn’t already) the C3 is incredibly important in that regard. I don’t know what Flashpoint’s C3 rating is but if they’re losing a lot of their audience during commercials (and I know Dollhouse isn’t) then that gives you completely different figures to work with as well.
playe, he is talking about season 1 only. It was a huge flop at FOX.
Here are my problems with Dollhouse:
(1) Way too many characters and subplots thrown in. Why is the FBI agent brought in during Episode 1? Who are all these various executives and employees of the dollhouse?
(2) A lead character nobody can identify with or root for. I mean, the show is about a girl that has her entire personality stipped, and is a completely different person in each episode.
(3) The concept is flawed. Ok, you have 5 “actives” that you can reprogram and turn into hostage negotiators and the “perfect” girlfriend. After 13 episodes, how are they going to advance the plot?
And, as one point of snark, let me offer:
(4) If it’s true they spent $10mm building the main set, they wasted a ton of money. They shot Buffy in a high school for God’s sake, and it was a much better show. Sci-fi TV is driven by writing and not by FX. They should have put the money into a writing staff.
Nick C,
Fox has the strength to gamble now, but no *need*. In 1993, they *needed* to gamble. They did the summer-gamble thing with “Beverly Hills, 90210″ maybe a year or two before they tried it with X-Files?
And I realize “Must-See-TV” was not yet created when Cheers debuted. However, Cheers was the very early building point into NBC’s stand on such a comedy block. I was making a generalization about NBC’s comedy blocks, and how they seem to be loyal to comedies with potential, for that “Must-See TV” type of block. They haven’t always used the slogan, and they don’t use it now, but it generally applies to an NBC comedy block – with maybe a 10 p.m. drama at the end.
“alex, how can X-files not be a hit if lasted for NINE years?”
My comment was in regards to its first season, where it absolutely wasn’t a hit. Like I said it finished 102 out of 118 shows and by no ones standard can that be considered a hit show. It was to put some of The X-Files numbers that have been linked into perspective. They were bad during 1993 with only 16 shows performing worse.
Outlander, I think they spent $600,000 on the set. I think Robert had an article on here about it.
Sorry for the caps but this requires notice:
CHEERS WAS NOT THE LOWEST RATED SHOW ON TV IN SEASON ONE.
That is an urban legend. It wasn’t even the lowest rated show on NBC that year, and quite possibly not even on NBC Thursday.
‘So we’re saying the 4.7 million people who tuned in last week are the entire ‘cult’ fanbase and that they all hated the show which is why 4.2 million of them returned this week?’
Er … no. Not saying anything like that.
Who knows or could even define what the ‘cult fanbase’ is? I couldn’t begin to – I know that about 100,000 people buy the Buffy comic, and that’s probably as good an estimate as to the number of ‘hardcore Whedon fans’ out there as you’ll get.
Joss is beloved in cult circles. No doubt about that. Fans have known about Dollhouse for years, and been looking forward to it. Just do what Nick hasn’t and Google ‘Whedon Dollhouse’.
Now hunt down some reviewers of the first episode – mainstream guys, bloggers, people commenting on the show on boards like this. Overwhelmingly, Whedon’s fans are disappointed. Even the people saying they trust Joss that it will get better aren’t saying it’s good now. The consensus is ‘I expected so much more from the creator of Firefly’ or something very like that.
Those hardcore fans, though, are going to be there when the only place to see Dollhouse is Hulu (or ‘late March’, as it’s also known). Anyway, even if they all did stop watching, the ratings would barely notice.
The point about ‘building an audience’ is that those fans are meant to create a buzz, give the impression that everyone’s talking about the show and you should be, too. That clearly didn’t happen this week.
Fox didn’t sneak out a brilliant show that people will gradually come to appreciate – I can pretty much guarantee that Dollhouse has already peaked in terms of ratings, because people already knew about it.
Dollhouse’s set cost $950,000:
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/02/01/numbers-from-josh-wheedons-dollhousei-set/11906
Thanks, Chris the TV Sage.
Is $950,000 alot for the average set?
clutz, FOX to my recollection never aired new episodes of THE X-FILES over the summer. They just aired repeats, and went after the conventions heavily with their season 2 premier. At that point and time the show had increased in quality greatly compared to early season one which was mostly all bad reviews except for one by I think either the NYT or the New Yorker or something. The show that was “critically acclaimed,” was actually the show that aired BEFORE the X-FILES: THE ADVENTURES OF BRISCO COUNTY JR. In fact FOX spent most of that season promoting BRISCO and ignoring THE X-FILES.
The fact is they just gambled. They rolled the dice. NBC most definitely rolled the dice with CHEERS. I think that is the only show to start dead last and ever get a number 1 finish. CHEERS likely benefited from THE COSBY SHOW premiering during its second season if my memory is good. Still it was a gamble.
When you treat a night like the plague, chances are you can’t have a hit out of the blue. For one thing most TV viewers don’t use the internet and reviews for their viewing. Panels show that TV viewers base some of their decisions on if a show is good just by the day it is airing. During “Must See TV,” for instance, viewers thought a new show on Thursday on NBC was “worth watching,” just do to that. Friday Night being a “dead night,” for FOX does the same thing. Viewers see that it is on Friday, and think “it must not be good.”
So they have to rebuild their Friday Night Brand. That isn’t going to happen over night. It takes time. If they’re serious about it then they need to gamble. I’d go a step further and move BONES to Friday like they’ve wanted to do for years but always tow to the producers. Just move it to Friday where viewers know “I like that show,” and rebuild their Friday Brand.
FOX is more likely to make their Friday Night more profitable than their Thursday.
The first episode, sure, possibly. But I’ve seen listings from later in the season that showed it well ahead of “Fame” and “Taxi.”
In fact, here they are. One week is one week, of course, but it wa s49th out of 71 that week. There’s no way that doesn’t boost it out of the bottom.
But the real point was, clearly even if it premiered dead-last, it grew.
“Fox didn’t sneak out a brilliant show that people will gradually come to appreciate – I can pretty much guarantee that Dollhouse has already peaked in terms of ratings, because people already knew about it.”
I’m not sure people knew about it at all.
A select group of people already know about and have known about it but that doesn’t mean that the general population know about it. The point of leaving a show on air to ‘build an audience’ is to do just that, build an audience, any audience. Your making the assumption that the only reason to leave it on over the summer would be to attract cult fans who know about the show and that wouldn’t be the point – not even close. The point of leaving a show on over the summer is to expose it to an audience that don’t know about it and wouldn’t traditionally watch it and that’s what helped to make the X-Files a hit.
Cult/Sci-fi fans already knew about the X-Files and were already watching it, when Fox let it run during the summer it opened the show up to a new audience beyond that cult audience. That’s the basic principle that drives the decision to leave Dollhouse on over the summer as well, the thought process is that cult/Whedon fans already know about this show and are already watching it so how do we get people outside of that group to tune in? Friday Nights was partly a good choice for that given the lack of options on other networks, extending the run into the summer furthers that.
I’ll also say that I think you’re massively over estimating the Joss Whedon following and their ability to influence anyone else. Did you not hear the word of mouth Firefly got? Whedon fans were falling over themselves to praise it, as were a lot of other people as well and it didn’t make a difference, and no doubt in part because Fox let it die too early. I’m not saying Dollhouse is Firefly, I personally don’t think the show is especially good at least the first two episodes haven’t been but by the same token I have vague memories of hating the first few episodes of The X-Files as well. And countless other shows that have since found their stride and grown into themselves.
And its once again worth pointing out again that for all the talk of how great The X-Files became when it debuted it wasn’t very good. Fox however let the series run and it got a lot better as time went by, which resulted in good word of mouth and a growing audience. I suspect that’s the reason Nick used The X-Files comparison because both shows started off in the toilet.
Joss sucks. He’s over rated. I was his biggest fan but he is past his prime. And look at the crappy writers he hired for Dollhouse. It deserves those ratings!
Anyone who wants to save a show before it even premieres or they have even seen it is a loser and has no life. It’s creepy to be that devoted to someone. And I know for a fact Joss views his fans as a kind of neccessary evil.
Chris the TV Sage, wow I’ve heard it straight from the lips of James Burrows. There is no “Snope,” for it either. There is however a 1982 Nielsen Ratings listing showing CHEERS 77th out of 77 shows. Google shows no urban legend for it either. I think you’re mistaken.
I believe Univision had the final episode of Fuego en el sangre yesterday.
I guess it may have won the 9pm hour in the 18-49 demo
Joss Whedon raped my intelligence!
Alex
getting an average 7-8 million viewers and that too on friday nights on it’s First season is no way a Flop
Ghost Whisperer is getting the same numbers on Friday night and is consider a Hit
i think it was an average start btw not as LOW as Dollhouse ratings
http://x-files.host.sk/nielsens.php
haha your show sucks!
“getting an average 7-8 million viewers and that too on friday nights on it’s First season is no way a Flop
Ghost Whisperer is getting the same numbers on Friday night and is consider a Hit”
It is useless to try and compare the numbers from 1993 to today, the television landscape is completely different. Hit shows now would not be hit shows in 1993 and hit shows from 1993 would be obscene monster hits now. I’ll repeat that The X-Files was ranked 102 out of 118 shows on television for the ‘93 season and that is not a hit show.
Jimmy, it averaged 6.6M viewers. In 1993 that was 102 out of 118 shows.
‘The point of leaving a show on air to ‘build an audience’ is to do just that, build an audience, any audience.’
I agree with every single thing you said in that post (um, and I’m not being sarcastic this time).
The thing about ‘building an audience’ is that it would be word of mouth. A good show that people have missed. That really isn’t the buzz about Dollhouse, and … well, it doesn’t really deserve it, does it?
Very early days, but the other key thing is that the audience has to actually build. It’s fallen. These days – as ever, really – the promotion and anticipation is focused on that first episode. No one but no one is saying ‘I wish more people watched this, it’s truly brilliant’. You watch the first episode of, say, The West Wing, you can see it’s going to be a brilliant show. You watch the first episode of Studio 60, you can see it isn’t. With this, the best anyone’s saying is ‘i’ll stick with it to see if it gets any better’.
I’m not sure where this extra audience comes from … if there were floating Flashpoint viewers, they’d float away during a repeat week. Fox aren’t going to move Dollhouse to a better slot, it would just poison that slot. They’re not going to kill Fringe or Bones to prop up Dollhouse.
Firefly was always going to be a hard sell – a show set in space featuring linedancers and prostitutes? Dollhouse is a show set in modern day America about a beautiful woman who goes around in low cut tops hitting people. It’s not exactly an exotic, acquired taste. And we’re not yet at the Heroes Season Two point where the backstory and mythology and relationships are completely impenetrable … part of the problem, in fact, is that there’s very little of that. Plus these are the episodes Fox wanted up front to sell it to the audience.
This is as accessible as Dollhouse is going to get.
I don’t see where it builds *from*. Nick’s ‘keep it on, the audience will come’ thing just seems baseless.
Nick C, thanks for the summer clarification. I didn’t think X-Files was ever aired “new” over the summer. Your mention of Dollhouse summer audience-building made me think you were talking “new” episodes only.
Still, I maintain that the need to gamble now is much different than it was in 1993. With several bona fide successes under their belt, Fox does not need to gamble on anything right now. If they choose to gamble on Friday nights, they don’t even have to do it with Dollhouse. I’m not saying they *won’t* try it, but I’ll understand why if Fox dumps Dollhouse after one season. They could keep throwing new shows at the board until something sticks. Seems to be what CBS has done with the Friday 9 p.m. timeslot. They hedged their bets with the current Flashpoint venture, as it was cost-effective. Hopefully for CBS, the wacky scheduling won’t kill the effort, and Flashpoint will finally be something that sticks. Again, I’m not saying Fox is definitely done with Dollhouse, but I fully understand why they could pitch it and start anew. Fox can gamble all they want, but they don’t have to use Dollhouse unless they really, REALLY want to. At this point, I don’t see why they’d want to.
Andrea2, I did hear that Fuego definitely won the 9pm hour in 18-49s, and that Univision won 18-49 for the night outright, but I didn’t actually see the numbers
‘During its first season, The X Files finished 102 out of 118 shows in the Neilsen ratings with a 6.4 average… During its second season, The X Files finished 64th out of 141 shows in the Neilsen ratings with a 14.5 average.’
- http://paul.rutgers.edu/~cwm/bedlam/x-files/xfilesFAQ.html#real
You can compare 1993’s numbers with todays all you want when The X-Files debuted it was not a hit. Not even close to it.
Alex
that’s what i am saying it wasn’t a hit …but by no means it was a FLOP either
it was you can say Average
@Nick
maan your ignoring my link …just check the facts dude it’s written average 7 million for first season
There is some serious splitting of hairs going on here. Looks like everything across the board was very similar except for CBS. None of the top four networks had a 2.0 or higher rating/share from 8-10pm.
And looking at TSCC, out of the four top networks at 8-9pm, three of them (Fox, NBC ABC) had approximately +/- 200,000 range in viewers and about a +/- 0.3 ratings/share range of each other. No big difference.
As much as the rabid dogs of cancellation here love to raise their pitchforks at TSCC, it should be back for a third season (it only needs one more season anyway to wrap up the story, and has to do worse than this for cancellation). There is more to a show’s cancellation than these ratings. It is still too early.
“The thing about ‘building an audience’ is that it would be word of mouth. A good show that people have missed. That really isn’t the buzz about Dollhouse, and … well, it doesn’t really deserve it, does it?”
I don’t disagree. Like I said judging from the first two episodes this isn’t an especially good show (although I do think the second episode was an improvement on the first) however this is partly why The X-Files comparision fits. Nobody was giving X-Files good word of mouth after its first few episodes. It took time for the writers and cast to find their feet and work out what the show was, as it does for a lot of shows. Not all shows can hit the ground running, in fact very few do and even fewer don’t see a drop from their pilot episode to episode two.
As long as Dollhouse doesn’t drop again next week (which for the record I won’t be betting against) its on (comparatively) ok ground in terms of building up its audience. But like I’ve said a few times now I think Dollhouse’s future rests entirely upon whether Fox are serious about building Friday nights as a viable programming block. If they are I think it’ll be back as long as the numbers don’t drop lower than they are now. But we’ll see.
TSCC last night was very boring. The entire episode was about a funeral .. depressing. Hope it will get better before end of the season. It’s really too bad because the show had so much potential.
clutz, because they’re finishing 2nd in the demo for the night!
That is why. As long as they continue to keep finishing 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th they will lean towards renewal. Again, you have to rebuild your brand. The Fox Friday Brand is crap. When season 2 rolls around, viewers may go “that is still on the air? I wonder why?” and watch it.
If you don’t have growth in the your 2nd or 3rd season chances are extremely low for growth later on. Some like NCIS are perfect examples of a snow ball in hell.
“I did hear that Fuego definitely won the 9pm hour in 18-49s, and that Univision won 18-49 for the night outright, but I didn’t actually see the numbers”
Thanks.
On imdb dot com, they list Cheers as finishing dead last (77th out of 77) “the week it debuted.” So yeah, it finished dead last once.
“that’s what i am saying it wasn’t a hit …but by no means it was a FLOP either
it was you can say Average”
No it wasn’t average. 102 out of 118 shows is not average. That’s bad. Average would have been 60ish out of 118 shows. 102 puts you in flop territory for sure.
And for the record the link I posted puts the shows average at 6.4 for the first season not 7 million. Not that its important. Nor can I believe I’m debating a shows ratings from 1993.
Nick C,
It’s finishing second in the demo when Flashpoint is in REPEATS. Unless it’s finishing first in the demo, and gaining viewers in C3 ratings (meaning more people are watching commercials over 3 days than the show itself live), Fox has sufficient justification for cancellation. I’m not saying they will dump it, I’m just saying they have no reason to feel bad about it if they do. They can try to rebuild the Friday night brand with something entirely new next year, if they so choose. Scoring second in the demos is not a “must-keep” situation whatsoever. Bottom line is that Fox can choose to keep or to dump, and the decision rests on who champions the show and the strategy at this point.
As for taking longer than 2 seasons to grow – a sitcom example holds there too. Seinfeld took about 3.5 seasons to gain Nielsen traction, if memory serves me correctly
Clutz he means finishing second in the demo for the night behind 20/20 in the C3, but I disagree with him that this will matter.
I don’t understand why people are commenting on the lack of writing talent on the show. Whedon brought in seasoned vets from his previous shows. Almost all the writers wrote on multiple shows of his. If you don’t like any of his other shows that’s fine because it’s a matter of taste and opinion, but don’t for a second assume that he is using a bad pool of writers. Whether or not you love or hate the show it is generally accepted in most critical circles that Whedon and his team of writers are very talented. Now that doesn’t mean they aren’t capable of writing a bad episode of television but it’s kind of ridiculous to insinuate that they spent too much money on the set and not enough on writers or that being his biggest fan you don’t recognize names like Steven S. Deknight, Maurissa Tancharoen and Jed Whedon (Dr. Horrible cowriters), Elizabeth Craft and Sarah Fain, Tim Minear, Jane Espenson. These are among the most talented and sought after writers in hollywood right now and that isn’t just personal opinion. Look them up on IMDB.
Do you have the Univision ratings for the 9PM-10PM time slot? It was a finale for one of their soap operas. I’m sure it did real well.
One thing T:SCC & Dollhouse does is make Friday’s ratings interesting and causes a lot of people to comment. Episode was great last night by the way.
You’re all forgetting that Fox co-owns Hulu and if it’s popular on there, that makes it profitable for Fox!
WOW. I am not a Dollhouse viewer, but a Friday Night Lights viewer, who thought last night’s episode was thoroughly entertaining and beautifully touching in its final 10 minutes, which will be saved on my TIVO until I know the DVD will be released.
But how can there be so much passion for a show that has aired only two episodes, totalling 86 minutes of airtime? Does passion develop that quickly, or is it confidence in the creator which incites such devotion?
TVFan5000: again, I did hear that Fuego definitely won the 9pm hour in 18-49s, and that Univision won 18-49 for the night outright, but I didn’t actually see the numbers.
Y, if only that were true that Hulu popularity a.) had any scale in the case of Dollhouse, and b.) made much difference in the way of profits. unfortunately, it isn’t true but if it makes you feel better to perpetuate myths, have at it!
what does dollhouse needs to be renewed? veewers..? rating..? share..? please answer me?
“”"RJ, you seem to be in the same boat as Steve Jeffers. How is finishing the night the 2nd biggest show in the demos on C3 “not doing well?””"”
Let’s see, CBS was all repeats? If CBS had all new episodes, Dollhouse would of been below the demo it had and would of been in 5th. FOX can use DFTL at a cheaper price for the same results. Plus C3 ratings are useless.
human target: 18-49 rating is most important as far as the numbers above go. what it needs to be renewed is a subject of great debate. i think it needs more 18-49 viewers than it has. not everyone agrees.
“what does dollhouse needs to be renewed? veewers..? rating..? share..? please answer me?”
Over a 2.5 demo in the 18-49 demo IMO because of the cost. Viewers mean nothing.
Also, Fox owns Dollhouse which means they will profit greatly from DVD sales! Also, Fox actually profits from the commercials aired on Hulu, seeing as they co-own Hulu!
so, if it gained 2.0/6 in the series premiere with 4.8 milion, it soppose to get a 2.5/6-7 in the next episode with hummmmm 5.5 milion or more?? i really do not understand the rating result!!
204 comments thats something to show if people don’t like Dollhouse they at least like to talk about it: yell about it?
Robert, I thought he might mean the C3. Was that info versus CBS repeats? The problem with Flashpoint is that I don’t recall which nights were new and which were repeats. Anyway, I agree with you on the notion that C3 won’t matter – unless we see something like C3 ratings at, say, 120% of the live audience on a consistent basis.
“Also, Fox owns Dollhouse which means they will profit greatly from DVD sales! Also, Fox actually profits from the commercials aired on Hulu, seeing as they co-own Hulu!”
There is 4 million people that watch the show, plus maybe 1.5 million that DVR it. Thats only 5.5 million DVD’s IF EVERYBODY BUYS IT! I bet there wont even be a DVD, and if there is, it wont sell many units.
Clutz, I’m sorry he did mean C3, but he meant second for the night overall, not the time slot
if fox wants to defines itself as a real network and not the show-killer, it should give more time to both shows to defines their public. it must be more apprensive with their low rate, or will be the eternal 4th before CW, with any show game such as don’t forget the lirics, bleah..
RJ, last week Flash point was a new episode and Dollhouse beat it in the demo. It tied this week in the demo with Flashpoint, which was a rerun. I don’t know what’s going on with Flahspoint’s numbers… Next week is a new episode and based on Dollhouse’s numbers I think we can expect for Dollhouse to tie or beat it again but not in overall viewers, based solely on it’s two episodes aired to date. I don’t think Dollhouse is going to slip in it’s viewers or in it’s demo next week. But I don’t really think that it will increase either.
around only 2.23 million 18-49 tuned into Dollhouse from the numbers above by my calculations.
Fin, it’s not lost on us that the most commented on shows on our blog are typically the ones that get cancelled (Moonlight, Jericho, Pushing Daisies, Swingtown, Lipstick Jungle, recently KyleXY, etc). It make sense for it to work out that way on a site dedicated to ratings. Ghost Whisperer isn’t going anywhere, why talk about the ratings?
ps: i was talking bout dollhouse. coz tscc is just off..
“RJ, last week Flash point was a new episode and Dollhouse beat it in the demo. It tied this week in the demo with Flashpoint, which was a rerun. I don’t know what’s going on with Flahspoint’s numbers… Next week is a new episode and based on Dollhouse’s numbers I think we can expect for Dollhouse to tie or beat it again but not in overall viewers, based solely on it’s two episodes aired to date. I don’t think Dollhouse is going to slip in it’s viewers or in it’s demo next week. But I don’t really think that it will increase either.”
Of course the series premiere of Dollhouse won, people wanted to check it out. However, from here on out, it wont beat Flashpoint in the demo again. Especially since NCAA March Madness starts within a couple weeks, which will drop the numbers for Dollhouse even furthur.
Moonlight fans crowded the boards each Saturday saying the show would be renewed, look where that ended up.
what is NCAA MARCH MADNESS??
moonlight was on CBS. CBS cancells every show that is under 9 milion, friday or not.. crappy network
The good news for TSCC is that it is trending up from the midseason premiere. If the a positive trend continues, that would auger well for the show to get third season. Last night’s episode was about a funeral (which isn’t exactly the most exciting subject), especially in the back nine. The storylines are converging for all the characters however, so I am hopeful that the action will pick up in later episodes.
Flashpoint has been trending down in ratings and demo for the past three weeks. I have no ill will towards Flashpoint, I’m sure it’s a perfectly fine show, but I do think Dollhouse will continue to have an effect on its rating. A lot of people expected Dollhouses ratings in viewers and demo to drop dramatically after the series premier but it dropped on slightly. I just think it’s early in the game to write Dollhouse off. I guess by episode four we’ll know for sure.
Also, The Seattle Post Intelligencer is reporting that the ratings for Dollhouse grew last night during the last half-hour!
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/tvguide/401013_tvgif21.html
[quote]Dollhouse came in third behind a Flashpoint repeat (8.06 million viewers) and Supernanny (5.25 mil), dipping 10 percent from its premiere to 4.22 mil. That said, Dollhouse actually gained viewers over the hour. Friday Night Lights surged 14 percent to just under four mil.[/quote]
Also, The Seattle Post Intelligencer is reporting that the ratings for Dollhouse grew last night during the last half-hour!
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/tvguide/401013_tvgif21.html
Dollhouse came in third behind a Flashpoint repeat (8.06 million viewers) and Supernanny (5.25 mil), dipping 10 percent from its premiere to 4.22 mil. That said, Dollhouse actually gained viewers over the hour. Friday Night Lights surged 14 percent to just under four mil.
Annoyed, 2 of those three weeks have been reruns, and the new episode was flanked by two reruns on one side and another this week. It was trending up before it went into repeats. I’m not saying it will do great, but let’s not judge it based on mostly repeats.
lisa, NCAA March Madness is the college basketball tournament that happens (go figure) every March. Games will be aired Thursday through Sunday for two weeks, then Saturday and Sunday the next week.
Holly, yeah I noticed that they were repeats but mostly I was commenting on how it’s hard to tell week to week what Flashpoint will do. I think Flashpoint will continue to be successful for CBS but definitely some of it’s viewers are going to end up watching Dollhouse. It would be nice if shows on Friday could some how strike a harmonious split in ratings so that no one would end up on the chopping block but that’s about as likely as SCC coming back for season 3. Shame really.
I just don’t see Terminator coming back for a 3rd season.
thank you holly, does it air on cbs?
wow these Friday posts are making more posts than even Monday or Thursdays. Robert should be happy
RJ, TV shows rarely sell even 4 million copies. TV shows that do “well,” sell 1 million copies. I’m sure DOLL HOUSE will likely do that.
Also DOLL HOUSE will end up 2nd over all for the night or 1st in the C3 ratings. Why a show would need a 2.5 when even new episodes of GHOST WHISPERER don’t pull that I’m not sure. FOX is looking for 1.7 to 2.2 and right now it’s on the low end.
BTW, TSCC is now canceled. Warner will be looking for alternative sites for the show to continue if it is to continue. Today, FOX is going to air the rest of the episodes, but they’ve decided to not pick up a 3rd season.
lisa, Yes, it does. The Thursday, Friday, and Sunday shows on CBS will be preempted for March 19-22 and 26-29. The finals will be April 4th and 6th (Saturday and Monday)
“NCAA March Madness is the college basketball tournament that happens (go figure) every March. Games will be aired Thursday through Sunday for two weeks, then Saturday and Sunday the next week.”
I cant wait! It’s one of the best sports events after The Super Bowl and the World Series (if the Yankees are in it)
RJ, I don’t agree with you. I think that with a 2.0 it would be renewed with no problem.
“Why a show would need a 2.5 when even new episodes of GHOST WHISPERER don’t pull that I’m not sure. FOX is looking for 1.7 to 2.2 and right now it’s on the low end.”
Ghost Whisperer has pulled close if not over a 2.5 quite a lot this season. Why would FOX want a 1.7 if thats what Dont Forget the Lyrics pulled? If FOX really wanted Dollhouse to work they wouldnt of dumped in on Fridays. After the 13 episodes (or earlier) Dollhouse will never be on the airwaves again. End of story.
“RJ, I don’t agree with you. I think that with a 2.0 it would be renewed with no problem.”
I doubt it. With the price of the show, FOX could place the game shows in the timeslot for the same results, or they could air repeats of Bones and House with the same results. Dollhouse is going to be cancelled.
Could we please get another name for Dollhouse? DH makes me think of my Desperate Housewives LOL
As for Dollhouse, I’ve never watched it, but what I don’t understand is why is there so much animosity towards it? If you don’t watch it then why does it’s ratings affect you?
Everybody likes different shows so why must this big war erupt over a show that you don’t even watch?
20/20 is doing pretty good this season. ABC should keep the lineup they have since it is cheap and the ratings are pretty good from 9-11pm. 8pm could be stronger, but last night was a repeat, so I’ll let it pass.
RJ, oh I see you think DFL pulled a 1.7 on average. You’re wrong. The previous FOX Friday shows drop in the C3 rankings, and I believe you’ll find their LIVE + SD average is around 1.45 or so. DOLLHOUSE is 1.85. So it’s above the average and TSCC is below the average. So with the game shows dropping in C3s, and DOLLHOUSE improving it shows a larger difference in ratings.
As it is I was told DOLLHOUSE is going to turn a profit for FOX, so with that knowledge the show is more likely for renewal if it can hold up in ratings.
RJ, they did air repeats of HOUSE and LIE TO ME and they pulled low to mid 1s. Also DOLLHOUSE is extremely cheap to make. I get a kick out of you stretching things. The show is now “expensive,” and DONT FORGET THE LYRICS got similar ratings! Neither is true. Again, FOX says DOLLHOUSE is set to make a profit, so that means even a 2.0 would renew, but likely a 1.9 or 1.8. The 1.7 is definitely on the extreme low end.
“There is 4 million people that watch the show, plus maybe 1.5 million that DVR it. Thats only 5.5 million DVD’s IF EVERYBODY BUYS IT! I bet there wont even be a DVD, and if there is, it wont sell many units.”
Not sure on the logic here.
If you’re arguing that only people who watched the series buy the DVD’s Family Guy and Firefly (two Fox shows by the way) both say hello, since both of those shows found new audiences on DVD, FG to the degree that it was cancelled and then brought back partly on the strength of DVD sales. On top of that have you ever sat down and done the maths on DVD sales? The second season of Heroes (which is 13 episodes like Dollhouse will be) is going for $25 on Amazon so lets say that Dollhouse retails for $25-30 when its released.
On that assumption if it sells 500,000 copies thats anywhere between $12.5 – $15 million. Obviously not all of that goes into Fox’s pocket but since its a Fox production a fair percentage of it will. Whilst a million DVD’s sold is anywhere between the region $25 – $30 million.
And for the record if by some astonishing never going to happen miracle Dollhouse sells 4 – 5 million DVD’s in the US then I will bet my house on Fox bringing it back for a second season, since that would add up to more than $100 million worth of DVD sales.
these #’s dont make saturdays look so bad.
“DOLLHOUSE is extremely cheap to make.”
An episode costs 1.5 million dollars to make. I doubt an episode of DFTL costs that much.
Dont Forget the Lyrics airing on 1/23/09 (most recent) pulled in 6.07 million viewers and a 1.7/5 demo. Better numbers then Dollhouse, and cheaper to make.
Cool, I don’t necessarily view more comments on posts as a great thing. somebody coming to the post for the first time, would a.) not likely read all the comments and b.) if they did they would see a lot of the same thing over and over again. Also # of comments don’t always reflect how many times a post has been read, though this post has been read a lot, especially for a Saturday (usually the second slowest day of the week, Sunday is usually the slowest).
Holly, thanks for your help as always.
Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader on 9/5/08 at 9pm (special airing) pulled in 8.57 million viewers and a 2.2/7 demo.
Steve Jeffers, sso many excellent points tody not that you needed to, but thanks. After the sickening office exchange between the woman and the guy purchasing their services, my tv went C L I C K!
Yes, some of the acting is not the greatest but the creepy content is what really breaches social and moral codes. I can see the Terminatior show hanging around but Dollhouse leaves about as bad of a taste in your mouth as the foul mouthed rants of Gordon Ramsey in Hell’s Kitchen.
We came to an agreement in my house about that show when I asked my girl how would she feel if every morning that she got up to go to work she knew that in all likelihood she was going to be cursed out, humiliated, and bullied all day long. When she finally acknowledged that YES she would have to go to HR and file a grivance, we took that show off our dvr recording schedule. We both learned a valuable lesson from those two programs. You can watch a show thinking this is what I want to see. Then after it’s over, on the inside you feel disturbed and miserable and you wonder why. Who needs such afflicted tv? It’s certainly one block we won’t be revisiting.
I wonder, does the moral skeeviness that Matt2 mentioned have any impact on the ad sales? I know some reality shows don’t score the best ad prices despite high ratings, because there’s some notion of not wanting to have your brand associated with them. Dollhouse did get some feminist backlash.
Then again, if advertisers want to target males 18-34 skeeviness is probably their best bet. My high opinions of humanity, let me show you them.
It would depend on the (moral) objection, how vocal the objections are and I suspect the network.
I would for example guess that Fox can probably get away with more in that department than CBS or ABC could purely because of the public perceptions of the networks. And in some cases I’d be tempted to suggest that some degree of controversy can help a show, Gossip Girl probably wouldn’t be hurt by abstinence groups demanding a buyout for example, in fact it might very well help the show out to some degree at this point.
At least Fox will air the remaining episodes of TSCC. I hope Warner can find it a new home.
RJ, so what? You can point to their season highs. What about their averages? What about their C3 high of 1.5?
If FOX was expecting more than a 2.0 (18-49) for Dollhouse, why would they stick it on Friday and pair it with TSCC (a show that was barely getting a 2.0 on Monday)?
It’s to bad with the all the promos for action and adventure with the sexy female terminator promised for TSCC the episodes that showed had little of any of those.
Nick C, you cannot really tout averages to RJ yet. Two airings cannot make an “average” for Dollhouse. If the C3 ratings continue to go well for Dollhouse, *then* you can point fingers about season highs versus averages. For all we know, we have seen the Dollhouse season high too.
Another thought came to mind in the X-Files comparison. Your comparison is based on the notion that overall quality of X-Files improved toward the end of the first season, and that notion is pretty much shared across the board. I support that idea. I loved The X-Files. A major high point of the show, IMHO, was the chemistry of Mulder and Scully as played by Duchovny and Anderson. With all due respect, Eliza Dushku is no Gillian Anderson. And how will Echo build chemistry with anyone, when her very being is wiped out and reprogrammed for every mission? Combine lack of chemistry with the skeeviness factor (previous comments), and I am having trouble seeing how the Dollhouse concept can be an audience-builder, the way X-Files was. Men and women alike loved X-Files. As an 18-49 year old woman, I cannot see myself growing attached to Dollhouse in the same way. It’s still very early in the game, so I could be wrong. At this very early stage, though, I’m just not seeing much growth potential here.
On another note, it is a shame that more people did not take interest in FNL. Kyle Chandler and Connie Britton are heartbreakingly beautiful together, and the young supporting cast has come along very well. If no DirecTV deal comes through, if this is truly the final season of FNL, then here’s hoping a world of opportunities comes around for Peter Berg, Chandler, Britton, Kitch, Porter, and all the rest whose names escape me at the moment.
“What about their C3 high of 1.5?”
What the heck is C3? I know the numbers I posted were finals, but I have no idea what C3 is.
Dont Forget The Lyrics Averages:
5.20 million viewers (excluding repeats)
1.6 demo in the 18-49 year olds (excluding repeats)
First Two Episodes of Dont Forget The Lyrics:
5.47 million viewers
1.6 demo in the 18-49 year olds
Dollhouse Averages:
4.46 million viewers
1.9 demo in the 18-49 year olds
Dollhouse, IMO, will drop again next week, thus the average will drop even further.
RJ, C3, or sometimes written C+3, are the commercial ratings within 3 days of airdate. Pretty much all the ratings on our site and anywhere else for that matter, except items specifically about commercial ratings, are *program* ratings. We’d love to get regular access to commercial ratings but we have so far been unsuccessful in doing so. If you look in our archives in the TV advertising category, there are a few items specifically about C+3 ratings.
for your information EJ, Ghost Whisperer averages between 2.5 – 2.9 in demos this season……. and between 9-11 million viewers.
FOX will let dollhouse go a little longer, just to say “sorry” to Whedon for Firefly. They know they screwed up with that, but Dollhouse isn’t near the caliber of Firefly, and Eliza D just isn’t a good enough actress to pull off an incredibly hard and dynamic role like Echo. It’s a fun show, and Joss is never HORRIBLE, but it won’t last more than 2 seasons at most. Go make more Firefly episodes, Joss…
First of all, I find all of you who are whining about Terminator a little ridiculous. That show is a pathetic, sorry excuse for television and it should have been cancelled a long time ago. The only good things about that show are Summer Glau, the crazy redhead Irish robot chick and Agent Ellison. The script is HORRID. Oh, oh, it’s so painful to watch a show with so much potential suck so hardcore. I want to like it, but the writers don’t want me to. They need to fire ALL the writers, because they don’t have the talent to keep make this show mildly interesting. They prefer to write melodramatic garbage where >>>nothing ever happens<<<<.
Let me give you a sample of some of the atrocious dialogue from last week’s episode, where they find some dead cows next to a pond:
Cameron: “What do you think’s killing them?”
Random Guy: “Stupid people with guns.”
Cameron: “No bullet wounds.”
Random girl “What are you, Dr. Quinn, medicine woman?”
WHAT?! How is that snarky comment supposed to be in any way relevant? You don’t have to be a doctor – hell, you don’t have to anything more than just short of clinically retarded – to surmise that the cows were not shot by the fact that THERE ARE NO BULLET WOUNDS. Who writes this crap?
Then there’s another line in the show where John Henry says to crazy redhead Irish robot chick:
JH: “… You’re not human.”
CRIRC: “Excuse me?”
JH: “You’re made of metal. Not the same metal as I am, but metal”
CRIRC: “How can you tell?”
JH: “I looked into your eyes. There’s nothing there.”
Really? That’s what a robot would say? I know eyes are windows to the soul and everything, but a robot can tell another robot is made of metal by looking into its eyes? Are you kidding me? That sounds like something a human would say, or maybe a Cylon, and Terminators are nothing like Cylons. They don’t have emotions (although it seems Cameron has some very basic ones), and John Henry is a very basic one. He could have said something like “Your body is still. It doesn’t vibrate like a normal human’s does.” Of course, not the way I just wrote it there, because I’m not a good writer, but I think you get my point. Something robotic, and amusing because it’s robotic. Sort of like the way Cameron used to speak in season one (except John Henry’s AI is more basic).
And there’s so much Dollhouse bashing. And Joss Whedon bashing. Okay, I’ll give you that the pilot episode was bad(the one that was FORCED to be refilmed by Fox, and had some pointless “cool” action sequences UNCHARACTERISTIC of Whedon), but the second episode was so much better. I was watching it and all I could think was: Why wasn’t this the pilot? It revealed more, and was more interesting – but I bet Fox didn’t want to overwhelm people, and they wanted more PEW PEW and VROOM VROOM. Viewers tuned out because it wasn’t very good last week, but will a better episode attract more people next week? And this was definitely a better episode.
For everyone who already liked Dollhouse and wants to get people hooked on the show, DO NOT show them the first episode. Let them start from the second.
Dollhouse will be great if Joss Whedon has a chance to make it great. I hope the ratings go up… enough to get it pushed to another night. With Battlestar Galactica coming to a close, and most other shows sucking hardcore, I need something really awesome. I don’t want another one of Whedon’s shows cancelled…
Okay first off the second episode of dollhouse was waaay better than the first! (As everyone is saying so LISTEN!!) It introduced more storylines and had a heap more potential. So lets give it a chance people -we’re only 2 episodes in!
And Terminator is a good show. Yes, the last few episodes haven’t had it’s characteristic action and explosios, but that’s because these are different types of episodes. All shows have types of episodes like “action” or “character development” or “storyline introductions or development”. It’s just a fact. You can’t only have one type. There are always episodes you don’t like. That just makes the awesome ones more awesome! I personally think they are setting up the story for an epic and crazy season 2 (and unfortunately and likely series) ending. I predict another week of a ‘talky’ episode and then a bunch of action…so tune in and up the ratings!
Anyway that’s my rant.
I just read all 257 comments for this post and I have no idea why.
For the record, i’m with most people here, I don’t see how Fox could justify buying new episodes of Dollhouse next year when they could just air repeats of House and Bones and get the same numbers, maybe even better numbers.
hem… so you don’t like the show but have a debate bout it?? why you take care of the show if you do not watch? if the show get 5 million and 2.2 on fiday in its first season with all these critics, it will be renewed surely. it’s the same story of other scy-fii show such as buffy or dark angel (that was on friday!!). FOX won’t repeat the same mistake to both joss and eliza. if if they cancel the show, it would be the second for joss (firefly) and third for eliza (tru calling, nurses), and they will never see them again and in any ways. so yeah they won’t cancel the show at it’s first season. if sarah connor its arrived to the second complete seson after last years numbers when it dropped from 18 to 13 to 10 to 8 to 6 million on friday in 5 episodes with all that goos promotion, they will renew dollhouse nfor next year. this discussion is closed. now take care of the show you love and not dollhouse. mike we can call dollhouse DLH. do you like it?
sorry i meant that tscc was on monday last year..
Nick C, I’ve read elsewhere that the C3 Ratings are not available after one week (e.g. here: http://www.mediapost.com/publications/index.cfm?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=88030 .)
How come you already know them for Dollhouse?
The C3 numbers aren’t available to networks yet, as far as I’m aware. Media Week (I checked) say they take longer.
“if the show get 5 million and 2.2 on fiday in its first season with all these critics, it will be renewed surely.”
I’m pretty sure the critics hate Dollhouse.
“so yeah they won’t cancel the show at it’s first season.”
Yes they will.
“if sarah connor its arrived to the second complete seson after last years numbers when it dropped from 18 to 13 to 10 to 8 to 6 million on friday in 5 episodes with all that goos promotion, they will renew dollhouse nfor next year.”
FOX most likely renewed SCC for promotion for the new Terminator movie. Neither will come back next year.
every joss’ show had problem when they began. buffy season 1 gained 3-4 milion at first but incremented during season 2 arriving to more than 5 milion. it was on WB.. dollhouse needs time to develop its storyline. the ‘’sarah connor bullshit” is just over, i hope fox wio’t renew that crappy show. bad script bad acting bad bad bad bda bad bad bad BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD!!
ZOMG, did someone just croak out the same old tired “Cheers” comparison? “Cheers” was a low-rated show for exactly 3 months. During which time, it trended upwards. NBC stuck “Gimme a Break!” in front of it in January ‘83 and it wasn’t particularly low-rated after that. And then it received 13 Emmy nominations over the summer and exploded. And then the programming genius Tony Thomopoulos cancelled “Too Close for Comfort” — the #6th ranked show on TV in the ‘81-’82 season and the first show to actually keep all of the “Three’s Company” lead-in — for no discernible reason and replaced it with a totally-retooled (and totally-unwatchable) “9 to 5,” which sent ABC’s Thursday lineup into the basement and helped send “Cheers” on its way to hitdom. More importantly, when it hit the air in ‘82, NBC had all of about 3 Top 30 hits — two of which were fading, the third of which, much like “Cheers,” was a critical darling that was one of the lowest-rated shows on TV the year before. More importantly than that, NBC clearly loved the show and believed in it. Most importantly of all, it was actually good.
“Dullhouse” is not good.
“Dullhouse” is not a critical darling.
“Dullhouse” is not trending upwards.
“Dullhouse” will not be receiving 13 Emmy nominations this summer.
“Dullhouse” will never have a successful show placed in front of it.
Because FOX clearly doesn’t love “Dullhouse” or believe in it.
Because FOX has more hit shows (many of which are actually good, unlike “Dullhouse”) this season than they’ve had in just about any season.
And people think FOX cares more about “Dullhouse” than they do about THOSE shows? Unbelievable. You guys need to lay off the grape-flavored Whedon Aid.
Chris, I get full weeklies about 3 days after a week. At the beginning it was taking 15 days. That wasn’t fast enough for the people I work for. It was sped up a little, and then we invested in a faster service for ourselves. So I generally scan over them on Wednesdays or Thursdays. This last week due to the holiday I didn’t get them until later.
Riff Rafferty, did Dollhouse run over your dog? Seems like it.
Riff, so you’re saying CHEERS ended its first 3 months as the least watched show on TV and remained on the air? That was the only point. I was saying sometimes Networks gamble. So yeah, it’s a comparable situation in that sense. Obviously, the show isn’t CHEERS. Duh.
It is however much like THE X-FILES, both FOX, both FOX Friday Death Slots, both bad overalls, both decent demos JUST for the night, both received mediocre critical review on the pilots, both increased quality by seasons end (and I’ve seen some future episodes, and it does get better, but I hear it gets even better than that). There was NO reason to renew THE X-FILES besides a gut feeling. None.
gossi, the C3 comes out in 2 forms. Expedited, and normal. If your company wants expedited they must enter negotiations with Nielsen. The numbers aren’t “final,” kind of like how overnights aren’t final. I believe what they do is the take the LIVE + 3 numbers for the week and using their computers enter a formula in for when commercials “normally,” take place. Then a prelim C3 goes out the doors. These usually have FRINGE at a + .5 or so. When the finals come out it is usually + .25 or so (because the formula thinks the regular show is a commercial on the prelim, but not when they check the times for individual shows). So because I knew the trend I applied it to DOLLHOUSE when I got the prelim and divided the plus it got by 2.
True Final C3s won’t be available for another 5 or 6 days for last week. The prelim is accurate when you know show trends though.
Wow. 270 posts about a Friday night show from Fox. Going fast and noticing the usual suspects or the cute avatars(?) etc, I’d say 1. I never liked Buffy but it had a cult following. By definition a cult is a timing thing. 2. I still maintain Whedon et al will fight for the show to be on long enough to get dumped on SciFi in their looooooong afternoon ” marathon ” setup – well, it won’t have enough episodes for a marathon, but it will show up,klike shows I never heard of like Jeremiah, Sentinal etc. SciFi is a good cable success story; they throw stuff at the wall and see if it sticks; a kind of holding pattern until the next Battlestar Galactica or even that British one with the hideous special effects which had a little of a niche for a while. Does Whedon have enough clout to fight effectively for the show the way some of the fans are? After all, fans of a show don’t care which channel its on as long as it isn’t on at 2 AM sandwiched between infomercials.
Nick C, quick correction:
CHEERS was the least watched show ONCE – its first episode. It was low-rated for three months – but only once was it 77th out of 77.
As for the X-Files comparison – I see the business angle but I still have trouble seeing the quality/critical acclaim ever happening with Dollhouse. That “gut feeling” has a lot to do with chemistry; David Duchovny and Gillian Anderson had great chemistry. There was an intangible chemsistry with the full cast and crew, IMHO, but especially with the leads. Back when the X-Files was on the air, I recall reading something where Gillian Anderson noted her own surprise at landing the Agent Scully role. In her mind, she wasn’t tall, blonde, or “hot” enough
Eliza Dushku doesn’t have that same “hot” issue, but as I said before – Dushku is no Anderson. And Dollhouse has no Duchovny. And how can chemistry be written into characters who, by definition, do not have personas of their own? Fox can feel free to gamble with Dollhouse, since they know Whedon is capable of an engrossing, enjoyable series. They have no need to gamble, though, and there’s absolutely no reason that Fox cannot gamble on something else entirely.
Ricardo, it ran over my dog, ate my cat, raped my wife, killed my child, robbed my house, levelled my village, and then threw up my cat all over my new Berluti shoes.
Nick, it ended up as the least watched prime-time broadcast-network show for all of about one week. I’m pretty sure it didn’t accomplish that feat that often — at least not while “Bring ‘Em Back Alive” was on. Of course, they didn’t have to give “Cheers” more than 3 months — and if it had gotten the kind of critical reception “Dullhouse” has, they wouldn’t have. NBC put on a bunch of flops the next fall and dumped most of them by Christmas. Why? Because Brandon Tartikoff and Grant Tinker didn’t believe in them and the critics didn’t like them. Is there an Echo in here?
Clutz, I think they tried to show chemistry in the episode where they do the back story with Boyd her handler. They show how he can care about her despite her lack of personality. However, my point about X-FILES is only that it built up a large enough audience over the summer and some heavy promotion for the season 2 premier.
If DOLLHOUSE can boost their ratings similar to X-FILES did between Season 1 and Season 2, then DOLLHOUSE will be a “hit,” for FOX on Fridays.
FOX doesn’t have to gamble. They can go back to game shows that aren’t getting the same premiums that DOLLHOUSE gets and don’t sell on DVD and don’t sell as high as DOLLHOUSE sold to Sky One. DOLLHOUSE is already set to go in the black. It’s relatively cheap for an hour long drama at $1.5M per.
It just needs to keep a steady demo that finishes in the top 3 or 4 for the night on Friday. They’re doing that currently.
Then they “gamble,” on a show that is likely to keep in the black for season 2, and hope it gets the boost they want to make it the number 1 show in the demo on Friday Nights.
TSCC is an awesome show – one of the best shows on television. It doesn’t cater to the lowest commonn denominator, which is why it suffers in the ratings. I wouldn’t right it off just yet.
Riff, the critical response to DOLLHOUSE isn’t bad. It’s not good, but it’s not bad. Metacritic says it’s “Yellow,” and “Slightly Above Average,” so it’s not bad.
I’m tired of Networks acting like Friday is a place they throw crap to die. There is no reason we can’t have good TV on a Friday night. I mean NUMB3RS isn’t bad, but for the most part Friday is a crapfest. So I’d like to see DOLLHOUSE succeed enough to make Friday a more watchable night in the future. Shows having “success,” for a friday night may make all this reality crap and game shows go away. I mean USA has PSYCH and MONK. Neither are my cup of tea, but point is we need something to succeed for them to throw something better up.
Nick C, I agree that something needs to succeed, in addition to CBS anyway, on Friday nights. I just wish it were Friday Night Lights – already a million times better than Dollhouse will ever be, IMHO. And I am a much more of a sci-fi fan than a high school football fan
.
But if $1.5MM is cheap for a drama, relatively speaking, then maybe FNL does stand a chance…that’s about what the episodes cost, and DirecTV is paying a good portion of that (exactly how much was not published). Talk about chemistry – Kyle Chandler and Connie Britton are positively brilliant in that regard. I don’t ever remember seeing a longtime married couple with such devotion to each other in a TV drama before
. FNL is not dead last for the night – it’s outperforming Howe Do It in the 18-49 demo. I have no idea how FNL was doing in the C3’s, but it does very well in the Live+7’s – another million or so people are watching FNL via DVR. Not bad for repeats (about 600,000 people on average already saw FNL on DirecTV). Peter Berg is acclaimed in critics’ circles just as much as Joss Whedon is, if not more. It’s all adding up now…it is just as likely for DirecTV/NBC to provide a fourth season of FNL as it is for Fox to support Dollhouse. Thanks, you’ve given me hope! Go, Dillon Panthers, go!! 
Clutz if NBC’s latest 18-49 average is like 3.44mil and FNL just got like a 1.8mil in the 18-49 then that basically means it only had like 53% of NBC’s normal 18-49 which i don’t think NBC will be happy about: so unless DirectTV pay more (and it only got 0.6mil, alot for Direct TV?) pay more i don’t think NBC will renew.
Wow, 275 comments! That must be a record for this site! Dollhouse really has made some rating hurricane and it seems like Dollhouse is already making a cult following! At least for people who cares about ratings ( for example, I saw no buzz about Lipstick Jungle or whatever crappy show, that will be canceled)!
Wow so many posts , This surely must be a record at this site
Btw talking abt X-Files… season 1 was actually Critically acclaimed (it Won 2 Emmy awards in the first season and was nominated for many other awards category) but it had a small Cult Following which grew each season till the point where they were Pulling more than the CSI numbers (around season 3-6)
i dont think Dollhouse could or for that matter any shows could repeat the X-Files success or pull 16-18 Million figures in a Friday Night slot
i just wish dollhouse would hurry up and be canceled so we can get another Dr. Horrible Sing Along Blog
what a sad, sad world we live in. more people watched a rerun of wife swap than terminator.
god help us all…
LOST, that’s funny. X-FILES was nominated for two Emmys and won one. Won for title sequence, and nom for theme (music). It was critically panned for the most part when it debuted. The pilot was bad. The show wasn’t good at the start, but it did GET good by the end of the first season. I guarantee you that DOLLHOUSE will at least get a set design nomination if not the win. The critics changed their mind on X-FILES in the last leg of the first season. That may well happen with DOLLHOUSE, it happened with Whedon’s previous efforts. How many critics panned FIREFLY only to say they were wrong later?
Jimmy, he can do that blog when ever he wants. DOLLHOUSE won’t slow him down. I’m sure he wants to make dozens and dozens of more dollars.
clutz, I agree FNL is a much better show than DOLLHOUSE. Peter Berg is a great guy, but not a great writer. He is a bad actor. He is an above average Director. He is however a great guy in a business where that is a rarity. FNL however is critically acclaimed and still gets no viewers. NBC also doesn’t promote it well at all, and I think they keep it on for the critics. DIRECTV said they liked the numbers they got for FNL so they may help bring it back. I understand from NBC that even with its crap ratings it makes money thanks to DIRECTV and DVD.
A) Joss Whedon does not really have bad luck- he was the creator of two phenomenally successful series, another which was cancelled but was so well received they made a film out it, and bonafide a web phenomenon. I think he’s doing okay.
B) TERMINATOR WON’T GET CANCELLED! Why? Because one of the biggest films of the summer is a TERMINATOR movie. All Fox need to do is ride out this season, renew it and in the 3rd season promos show the future Terminator world that everyone will be dying to see, cos the odds are its gonna be a massive movie a little bit of future action is what people are gonna tune in for. All Fox’ll need to is give the audience what they want, maybe schedule it early in the season to get more reflected glory, or later in the season when there’s dvd buzz. Easy. Even FOX aren’t stupid enough to cancel the Terminator SHOW when a Terminator MOVIE is going to do half its publicity for it.
It’s got Christian Bale in it, for goodness’s sake.
Nass, I’m pretty sure that Terminator lasts through its run this season. There’s no chance at all it comes back next season.
Naas, FOX notified Warner that they should shop the show around. It’s not coming back.
I’m not convinced tbh.
And if so it’s not a smart move- people know about the show, just not enough are watching. The Terminator movie may whet their appetite for more terminator. If Fox play their cards, and this is dependant on the movie being as big as it should be, they could rescue Terminator. After all it is Terminator, the tv show and people DO know about it. They just need a push imo
actually if anything they might want to not renew it, but not cancel it and see how the movie plays out (and then if its good renew it really quickly XD )
Riff Rafferty: have you problem?? i mean psychological problem?? how can you hate this show?? ok u re angry but why?? it just raped your child and ate your wife and run over your mom or maybe it was your dog or your ass.. never mind! just if you do not like the show: kee… not watch!!
Nass, since you don’t buy into the numbers as much as we do, nothing we can say will convince you about TSCC until it isn’t on the schedule next year. Conversely, nothing will convince us otherwise until/unless FOX announces it has been renewed and will be back on the air next season. I’d be willing to bet quite a bit that will not happen. We’ll see.
I’m not so sure I’d make that bet Robert. After all, FOX did renew ‘Til Death…
In fact, I just may have to caveat everything concerning show cancellation with “After all, Fox did renew ‘Til Death”.
Holly, if TSCC was a 30 minute sitcom produced by SPT with over 50 episodes in the can, I would not be so willing to make the bet!
Come on, it would be easy to change TSCC into a 30-minute comedy. Just think of the possibilities!
I’d love to see that press release: “Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles and Dollhouse convert as FOX gives Friday night over to comedy. TSCC and Dollhouse will air as 30 minute sitcoms followed by two episodes of ‘Til Death!”
Nass, if people know about it and don’t want to watch it, the show has no hope. The standard line for fans of any show that has poor ratings is that people DON’T know about the show, and that the network is screwing the show over by not promoting it. You need to work on your complaints.
Nass said:
“It’s got Christian Bale in it, for goodness’s sake.”
It’s taking every ounce of restraint in my body not to go off on a profanity laced tyrade right now.
How about this press release: FOX develops a groundbreaking new 60 minute dramedy for Friday nights, something not even cable would do: “Terminator: Dollhouse ‘Til Death!”, with both Eliza Dushku and Summer Glau fending off Brad Garrett and Ed O’Neill with sticks, Tasers, .50 caliber machine guns, and whatever else they can lay their hands on – only to find that their own bodies are the source of Garrett and O’Neill’s obsession…
Post #300! w00t!
Good – only another two hundred thousand or so Dollhouse related posts to go on the entire Interwebs (of which, perhaps one thousand or so of those will be here) before we know next Friday’s demos :p
Nick C, What networks, if any, would be interested in picking up T:SCC?
I keep hearing that the show does well in that ratings internationally. This would give WB incentive to keep it on the air.
thecolours, well obviously Warners owns part of the CW and if they want they can probably put enough pressure for the show to be placed there. It was what Moonves thought of when he had UPN and WB merged. However Dawn is for some reason against picking up shows she didn’t green light originally. Which is all kinds of stupid. If the show could keep its audience it would be bigger than the “Brand,” shows on the CW.
However I think they’ll shop it to Universal’s brand station and SCI FI. Chances there are much lower for them to pick up new episodes though, but high for picking up the previous episodes. SCI FI has a horrid track record with their own stuff though so if they believe they can get 2M or so viewers out of it they might bite.
i’m a big sci fi fan and tried to get past the first 5 minutes of the first episode, but it looked like i was watching some teenage 90210 episode on crack.
perhaps the show triggered some fear or survival part of my brain.
had to quickly turn off..
horrible.
did you talk about dollhouse, tscc or both?
dollhouse.
terminator also gave off that vibe, but not as strong.
so many new shows are like that now, even the new doctor who is so messed up.
Thecolours – What are the international ratings for the show? Any idea? Your post has me curious.
Nick, passing on TSCC *won’t* be a bad call by Dawn, regardless of her reasons. I wouldn’t take it if I was running the CW and neither likely would you. It’s fine to day IF IT COULD HOLD ITS NUMBERS ON THE CW, but we both know that it would not.
I wouldn’t assume that a show that could only do 5.x million on Mondays and 3.x million on Fridays would fare very well on CW and neither would you. Passing is the best call she could make. If it had 7 million viewers on FOX and FOX was cancelling it anyway, that would be a different story.
Robert, I’d guess it would pull in about 2.5M and a 1.5. So… it would depend on what the costs were. It’s cheaper than 90210 right now.
I’d prefer something “new,” and you’re right I’d probably say no. However I’d be interested in looking at the numbers. It all depends on what Warner is offering. If Warner packages it right, yeah I’d likely take it if I was convinced it could pull at least a 2.2M and 1.3. I mean that is what they’re getting right now with the crap they have.
However under that hypothetical I’d be in charge of the CW, and I’d really be talking to JJ about producing a new STAR TREK series for me and green lighting a DC pilot as well as trying to find a “MARRIED WITH CHILDREN,” of today. Taking TSCC wouldn’t even be on the table.
NBC should just move Psych and Monk to the big network. They would probably out perform what they have now on Fridays.
Dawn is just a cold bit*h. she’s tryng to take down supernatural, the second big reason after smallville, by which CW is a ”big” nertwork. i hope sarah connor to end than to finish on that network!!!!!!!!
See the difference between X-files and Dollhouse in terms of ratings and sustainability is that X-files was actually good. RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE. Dollhouse is unfixable. The problems are rooted in the genes and the staff writers they hired aren’t good enough to fix those problems. Didn’t some of them work on Bionic Woman and I think one is related to Joss. Smart hiring Fox Execs! You deserve the bomb!!
Nick C. you are dreaming. Let’s assume Dollhouse and X-Files have the same ratings, which they don’t, X-Files was a hit all across the board, with critics and all viewers AND had strong word of mouth. And great writers. Dollhouse has none of that. And X-files first two episodes were awesome, with a clear pilot for where the show was heading. Dollhouse is a mess. How can you built a show from that? The problem is in the concept AND the execution. It’s unfixable.
“Riff Rafferty: have you problem?? i mean psychological problem?? how can you hate this show?? ok u re angry but why?? it just raped your child and ate your wife and run over your mom or maybe it was your dog or your ass.. never mind! just if you do not like the show: kee… not watch!!”
The funny thing is, this post is better-written than “Dullhouse.”
And, kee, I not watch. But then again, nokee else not watch, either. That’s why it’s a flop.
people we have to keep watching dollhouse before they pull it off the air the way they pulled off my beloved moonlightt. why do all the good shows have the worst luck, and crappy shows like ghost whisperer, numbers, and flashpoint get the luck????
“NBC should just move Psych and Monk to the big network. They would probably out perform what they have now on Fridays.”
When NBC repeated these on Sundays last year, the numbers were terrible.
Kim, X-FILES finished their first season 102nd out of 118. The pilot was universally PANNED by critics.
Yes, yes, the show got better. The ratings got better. The reviews got better. That is my entire point.
Clear Eyes, Full Hearts, Can’t Lose!
Oh shut up Anna, say what you want about Dollhouse, just Leave Ghost Whisperer out of it, obviously your jealous cause Dollhouse would be lucky to pull GW numbers…
WHOA theres no many comment in friday ratings!
In the final numbers TSCC was a “little” better than the numbers posted above. 3.86 million and 1.4/5 (18-49). Not that it matters much.
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=241555
1.4! Hey that’s… better… at least…
Dollhouse is aimed at younger, cool people, whom, let’s face it, are all out on Friday nights.
I think Fox should really take into account how many views it gets on its website as well before making any final decisions.
Also (forgive me if this is a stupid question, I’m a newbie to the ins-and-outs of ratings) is TiVO included in the Neilson numbers? Because a lot of people could also be recording it and watching it later.
Jackson says:
February 21st, 2009 at 9:46 am
I feel bad for Joss Whedon. The guy has the worst luck ever and can’t get a break. He’s a brillant guy and has a hardcore fanbase but his shows never last.
___
He’s had three: Buffy (7 seasons), Angel (5 seasons) and Firefly (1 seasons), thats quite good except for Firfly 8|
Hmmm. I added up the viewership for the Friday = 69.75m. Divide Dollhouse’s 4.22 by it and you get .06 – 6% not 5% like it says in the last column. This is actually UP from the week prior.
I am a Whedon fan, and do not agree with the comments of the person who called themselves JJ Abrams. It is very slick, and if the network gives it the whole season it will win more viewership. Besides if 4.22 million folks came to the place I work, we would be friggin ecstatic!!
Mike Keller, I’m not sure what data you have available to you that allowed you to add up EVERY SHOW ON TELEVISION including all local stations in local markets, and PBS overnight preliminary data. But if you’ll do a blog post summarizing all of the data for every show, every network, including local markets and PBS — I’ll happily link to it.
Mike Keller, you cannot calculate the share from the numbers in that table, First of all, the share is of adults 18-49, and the 4.22 million is viewers 2 and older. Second, the share is measured by Nielsen and includes all US adults 18-49 watching TV during that time period (1 hour in that case) including all broadcast *and* cable shows. The table above only includes the limited set of broadcast shows that are reported to us in the overnight fast affiliate report.
Edit: Robert, once again, ahead by seconds, but he did type fewer words. Brevity for the win!
yeah, but c’mon, I had most of a sentence in ALL CAPS, I won fair and square
on a totally different topic… how could CBS cancel a show that gets 8 million viewers on a rerun? I mean, that more viewers than 90% of ALL of NBC’s shows get for a new episode. Yeah I know that CBS get’s much larger numbers overall, but why change a show that seems to get decent numbers even with lots of repeats?
sorry for double post but….
I just realized I didn’t actually say what show I was referring to. XD
I was talking about flashpoint.
djm, I don’t think that Flashpoint will be canceled.