| Scoreboard |  |
 |
 |
 |
 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Total Viewers (million) | 10.20 | 5.18 | 4.68 | 4.13 | 1.88 |
| Rating/Share: Adults 18-49 | 2.2/7 | 1.6/5 | 1.5/5 | 1.4/4 | 0.7/2 |
Update: We used Marc Berman’s numbers (he was first) but other sites, including James Hibberd are reporting different numbers than what Berman provided. From James Hibberd:
“Wasn’t planning to post yet another story on Fox’s “Terminator” and “Dollhouse” ratings, but I figure an item is only fair given what happened last night. For the first time, both shows went up.
“Terminator” (3.5 million, 1.2/4) went up 20% for last night’s “Today is the Day Part 1? (which at these viewing levels translates to a couple tenths). “Dollhouse” (4.3 million, 1.6/5) went up one tenth – 7%. “
I have changed the numbers in the table to reflect Hibberd’s accounting for Dollhouse and TSCC.
As usual CBS won Friday night led by Ghost Whisperer, but Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles bounced higher from last week and Dollhouse was up in total viewers versus last week though flat in terms and up 1/10th of a point in 18-49 viewers. What’s any of that mean? Probably not much really, but it should keep the internets buzzing for at least another week.
Flashpoint failed to deliver a 2.0 at 9pm, and Numb3rs just made the 2.0 threshold. Even though Numb3rs had almost identical total viewing last week it was down ~13% among 18-49 year olds.
The news magazines 20/20 and Dateline must not have been that interesting last night.
Previous Friday overnight reports are available for comparison
Full details:
| Time | Net | Show | Viewers (Millons) | 18-49 Rating/Share |
| 8:00 | CBS | Ghost Whisperer | 11.1 | 2.6/9 |
| ABC | Wife Swap | 4.5 | 1.4/5 | |
| NBC | Howie Do It | 4.3 | 1.3/5 | |
| FOX | Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles | 3.5 | 1.2/4 | |
| CW | Everybody Hates Chris | 1.8 | 0.7/2 | |
| 8:30 | CW | The Game | 2.07 | 0.8/3 |
| 9:00 | CBS | Flashpoint | 9.4 | 1.9/6 |
| ABC | Supernanny | 5.6 | 1.7/5 | |
| NBC | Friday Night Lights | 4.4 | 1.5/5 | |
| FOX | Dollhouse | 4.3 | 1.6/5 | |
| CW | America’s Next Top Model (R) | 1.9 | 0.7/2 | |
| 10:00 | CBS | Numb3rs | 10.1 | 2.0/6 |
| ABC | 20/20 | 5.2 | 1.6/5 | |
| NBC | Dateline | 4.7 | 1.5/5 |
Shows are sorted by viewers in each time slot.
Nielsen TV Ratings: ©2009 The Nielsen Company. All Rights Reserved. Source Marc Berman/Mediaweek.
Definitions:
Fast Affiliate Ratings: These first national ratings, including demographics, are available at approximately 11 AM (ET) the day after telecast, and are released to subscribing customers daily. These data, from the National People Meter sample, are strictly time-period information, based on the normal broadcast network feed, and include all programming on the affiliated stations, sometimes including network programming, sometimes not. The figures may include stations that did not air the entire network feed, as well as local news breaks or cutaways for local coverage or other programming. Fast Affiliate ratings are not as useful for live programs and are likely to differ significantly from the final results, because the data reflect normal broadcast feed patterns. For example, with a World Series game, Fast Affiliate Ratings would include whatever aired from 8-11PM on affiliates in the Pacific Time Zone, following the live football game, but not game coverage that begins at 5PM PT. The same would be true of Presidential debates as well as live award shows and breaking news reports.
Rating: Estimated percentage of the universe of TV households (or other specified group) tuned to a program in the average minute. Ratings are expressed as a percent.
Share (of Audience): The percent of households (or persons) using television who are tuned to a specific program, station or network in a specific area at a specific time. (See also, Rating, which represents tuning or viewing as a percent of the entire population being measured.)
Time Shifted Viewing – Program ratings for national sources are produced in three streams of data – Live, Live+Same Day (Live+SD) and Live+7 Day. Time shifted figures account for incremental viewing that takes place with DVRs which are currently in approximately 24.4% of all U.S. TV households. Live+Same Day (Live+SD) include viewing during the same broadcast day as the original telecast, with a cut-off of 3:00AM local time when meters transmit daily viewing to Nielsen for processing. Live+7 Day ratings include incremental viewing that takes place during the 7 days following a telecast.
For more information see Numbers 101.
I was really hoping Dollhouse would fall to 1.3 just to see how Nick C. spins it as still renewable.
Me too!
Hell yeah! Great for Ghost Whisperer. That episode was AMAZING!!!
nbc bounced up in the demo. still, when i look at them and abc, i just cant help but thinking, mediocre, mediocre, mediocre. all three hours are just blah. neither net is trying. at least you could argue fox tried.
If there’s such a thing as a Friday night hit, Ghost Whisperer is it. I’m surprised none of the posters has said, Move GW to Wed night, scuttle the would be comedy block and make Wed nite on CBS ” Weird Must-See Seance TV!!! “
Wow ! FNL did amazing this week ! Is it a season high ?
Also glad for Dollhouse and TSCC.
“Hell yeah! Great for Ghost Whisperer. That episode was AMAZING!!!”
I’m still not feeling the “Jim/Sam” story arc…
I really wish they would somehow undo what they did this season but I have to admit the writers got exactly what they wanted; higher ratings and tons of attention for the show.
So ultimately they probably think they did the right thing regardless of what the fans say.
That’s good numbers for Ghost Whisperer. Ghost Whisperer would have had higher numbers if it was not pre-empted in some places.
The next Ghost Whisperer episode 4.19 “Thrilled To Death” will definetly have high numbers due to Hilary Duff being on it.
I, too am looking forward to seeing how Nick C spins Dollhouse’s results this week. Should be good for a laugh. I’m guessing he references “insider information” at least 3 times, with a possibility of 5.
Majarvis, Holding steady at a 1.5 is easy to spin, especially since he already defended it at a 1.5 last week. It didn’t fall any more and since it’s supposed actually be watchable starting next week, it could (theoretically) grow.
I’m also looking forward to Richard Stephen Hack’s daily TSCC bashing about how horrible it was last night and that everyone is stupid for watching it.
wow sarah connor was up nearly a mil and up .4 in the demos. pity dollhouse didnt have such a rise it may have had a rise in viewers but its demos were the same
Dave, you know that your expectations for FNL are low when you describe an 18-49 demo rating of 1.5 as “amazing”.
TSCC jumped a million viewers from last week! No, I won’t get too excited, okay (at least not on here), but do you guys think the jump may have been due, as some suspected, to the Watchmen premiere (y’know, since it’s kind of the same audience)?
FOX still came in 4th for the night which is not an improvement from the gameshows.
Hi Robert have you the Half hour numbers for TSCC?
For the second friday the 13th the numbers seemed higher for Terminator and Dollhouse. But both shows are still gonna be axed.
watch out friday shows Hilary Duff is invading Ghost Whisperer and she ganna rock the ratings
I am wondering, what are the chances of everything (TSCC, FNL & Dollhouse) being up in viewers not holding up in finals, because some local markets got basketball instead? Or was that really minor occurence?
Dan, no, Dollhouse had higher ratings last Friday the 13th. It was 4.72 in viewers and 2.0 in the demo. (And TSCC was 1.4 in the demo, though it did go up very slightly in viewers.)
Is Hilary Duff at all relevant now?
Personally, rather than going down I wanted Dollhouse to magically double.
j, the only entertainment I get out of Dollhouse, after trying it for the first two weeks, is the comments in the Friday ratings thread. Going down would mean far more entertainment than going up.
Isnt the next episode of GW in April?
RJ, yes. The next two Fridays will be NCAA BBall. Julie, I won’t see any half hourly detail until Monday and by then everyone will have forgotten about it…
Next original GW is scheduled for 4/3/09.
Dont count Terminator the Sarah Connor Chronicles out any time soon! Both Dollhouse and Terminators ratings went up this week!
What’s the difference between “overnights” and “finals?”
i bet fox wasnt 4th in 18-35 year olds. fox probably took 2nd in the 18-35 demo
is this un-normal for The Game these numbers seem high for them
well robert i wont have forgotten so please post them on monday. Thanks.
Where has Deal or no Deal been?
That’s not been on at all in a while has it?
Sam, CW probably was benefiting from local affiliate coverage of NCAA conference tournaments. Those #s get included in the overnight numbers (read the fine print), but are stripped out in the finals.
i the cw should move everybody hates chris and the game to wednesdays at 9 and 9.30 and fridays should be reaper and a new show possibly vampire diaries
Jocor, Howie Mandel is not a robot! Can you expect him to blaze new creative trails in both Howie Do It? and Deal or No Deal at the same time?
Wait Hilary Duff is still popular? I didn’t realize we were in 2002.
anyway, decent numbers for most shows (compared to last week at least) so that should keep fans of them a bit quieter than they have been.
wasnt deal or no deal cancelled. i thought nbc decided not to continue with primetime episodes of deal or no deal. but they didnt rule out the odd special episode
@Noah, the difference is the overnight numbers (fast affiliate — see definition above) are preliminary. Typically they are quite close to final numbers, but there are things that cause changes like live events, things other than the program broadcast on an affiliate (if the local affiliate shows a football game on CW instead of Supernatural, the football game gets counted – this is fixed in the finals). And quite often these days you have programs that overlap into the next hour by 1 to 5 minutes. The overnights do not accurately account for that overlap, but the final numbers do.
Apparently, one of the DOND models said that the show has been on hiatus for 6 months and they don’t know if they’ll be back on the NBC schedule anytime soon.
hi i was just wondering im not from the us so can anyone tell me if during TSCC if terminator salvation trailers have started to air yet? since most people say the only reason TSCC is still on is because of the movie. anyway cheers Robert for the ratings results.
VERY GOOD RATINGS FOR CW!!!!!!!I THINK THE GAME HAS ITS SEASON HIGH!!
Could be worse for FOX. I think Terminator is a goner, but Dollhouse should get renewed.
Interesting to see TSCC spike so well. I expected it to be around 3.4 million at best, figuring that’s the people they lost from Watchmen.
Fox should have played that TSCC Wondercon trailer a few weeks ago, with some minor edits. It wasn’t out in the public enough to help save the series.
re: rick
I don’t think CW, or more correctly, Dawn would move Vampire Diaries to fridays if it gets picked up. If anything she’ll probably move the Thursday drama’s to either friday or sunday and pit it their or weds. I have no doubt in my mind she’ll pick up the 90210 and GG spin-offs. EHC and The Game might move to 7 and 7:30 on sundays, if they’re renewed.
Is it possible Summer’s Big Bang Theory appearance helped garner some viewers?
no deal or no deal has NOT been canceled
well if the cw air reaper and vampire diaries on fridays they might actually have a friday night lineup that performs well
Dollhouse finally stabilized. From now on, it will be up, up, and away!
Come on, people! I don’t expect Terminator to beat Ghost Whisperer, but not being able to beat Wife Swap and Howie Do It is pathetic. Why on earth are people choosing those shows over Terminator?
why hasnt anyone considered that tscc had a ratings spike thanks to summer glau’s guest spot on the big bang theory on monday. that was basically a 20min ad for tscc
I think the spike in numbers could end up as a trend, but I would not count on it.
It will be interesting to see how much of TSCC’s ratings bump was because those stations were actually showing hoops.
TSCC Strike Back!
Here’s to the nay-sayers! *mockingly raises a glass* >:)
The numbers are different in the James Hibberd’s report (Hollywood Reporter) :
“Wasn’t planning to post yet another story on Fox’s “Terminator” and “Dollhouse” ratings, but I figure an item is only fair given what happened last night. For the first time, both shows went up.
“Terminator” (3.5 million, 1.2/4) went up 20% for last night’s “Today is the Day Part 1″ (which at these viewing levels translates to a couple tenths). “Dollhouse” (4.3 million, 1.6/5) went up one tenth — 7%. ”
Same thing for the Orlando Sentinel :
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2009/03/cbs-again-outpaces-other-broadcasters-on-friday-night.html
YAAAY FOR DOLLHOUSE !
nbc is getting roughly the same ratings out of howie do it that they were out of DOND, and they dont have to give away any money! now that Deal is in syndication, i wonder if the primetime one is toast. it should be with its numbers.
Given the apparent pre-emptions in some areas I wouldn’t read too much into the increases for anything this week just yet. I guess we’ll see how things pan out.
Indeed, the difference in the Hibberd and Berman numbers are mysterious. Could be just typos, but we won’t know until Monday when we get data from our non-online sources.
The bigger mystery is why the Nielsen publishing empire pays multiple people to do the exact same thing
That it produces different results isn’t nearly as mysterious!
The next new episode of Ghost Whisperer is April 10, 2009 NOT April 3. Hilary Duff is in the April 10, 2009 episode.
Phew, I just woke up from a dream (nightmare!) where TSCC dropped to .9 and was this being pulled from FOX immediately (and Robert actually made a sad post about it!
) and I was freakin’ out… Then I woke up again thinking that was just a dream and checked the site only to see that same dreadful article… Turns out I was STILL dreaming. And now I’ve woken up… Again… First not sure what was real… Pretty sure this is reality. 
The problem with the CW airing Reaper on Fridays at 8pm is that Ghost Whisperer is on the same time. I think the same kind of viewers watch both shows. They could air a Smallville Repeat as the Lead-in.
Rachel, imagine two post apocalyptic realities. One where 10,000 nuclear warheads are detonated and machines rule the earth. Another where only 5,000 nuclear warheads were detonated and machines ruled the earth.
I don’t view the second reality as ANY better. But I know a lot of TSCC fans would declare that reality twice as good somehow.
People are crazy.
Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles was awesome. In fact, the next episode is going to be even more exciting with even more buzz.
A lot of things were hurting TSCC in the past few weeks:: Watchmen release, International release, sports games, Colleges going on spring break and everyone being on buses or airplanes on Friday…
The upcoming weeks are going to benefit TSCC:: Summer Glau appearance on Big Bang, Exciting teasers of a more action packed last few episodes, internet buzz that is ripping apart the other shows (yes the internet is heavily promoting TSCC, more so than any other show, even more than Dollhouse), and more trailers of Terminator: Salvation. The international audience of TSCC is vastly growing as well.
Trust me, Renewing TSCC would be the best investment for Fox. I like Dollhouse, but even great fans of the creator know its not his best work. I hope they both get renewed though, what else would they put on Friday anyway…
Robert: I never said that these ratings are great by any means. I just prefer to look on the bright side when possible. Might as well start practicing now cause i’m really gonna need it in that apocalyptic future, right?
re: shem
reaper and ghost wisperer dont share much audience as ghost wisperer id a sappy girly show and reaper has a mostly male audience.
ghost wisperer doesnt really appeal to the male audience
Jonathon, even assuming that Berman’s numbers are right, it’s still Fox’s worst show. How is renewing the worst show on a network a sound investment?
I think the Reaper vs. Ghost Whiperer point is fairly moot anyway, since I can’t see The CW moving Reaper from the Idol spot if they bring it back for another season, seriously what else are they going to throw to the wolves? In reality I think that might be Reaper fans best hope for a third season – Dawn won’t want to put any of ‘her shows’ in that Idol slot.
On a TSCC note if these numbers hold then this is far too little far too late.
Julia, not fair at all. I haven’t changed my view of the show having to level off and trend up. I said if it kept dropping it was in trouble, I said it could survive a 1.4 but only IF it trended back up later. The 1.5 seems to be the season low and it’s back to a 1.6. I don’t think that is trending back up because…
I think WATCHMEN hurt both shows, and I think that is all these numbers really mean compared to last week. So that might mean that TSCC has finally bottomed out at 1.2 (not good) and DOLLHOUSE at 1.6. We’ll have to see now if DOLLHOUSE can rebound.
The CW numbers were definitely affected again (and for the last time) by NCAA BBAll.
Then again the NCAA Tourney may affect TSCC and DOLLHOUSE next week. Unlike WATCHMEN I don’t think they share the same target demo so hard to say. I’ll ask about and find out if a drop is expected from it.
Still DOLLHOUSE is not doing better in my mind. I think it’s just showing it leveled off. However leveling off at 1.6 is better than leveling off at 1.5. Is it renewable? Not yet. However it’s not in a bad spot. If it does in fact get better in quality (and having seen another episode how can it not?) and that does relate to good word of mouth, it MAY have a shot. It needs to trend back up. So a 1.7 is needed. I expect some more 1.5s though. I think it will huddle around 1.5 and 1.6 for weeks. We’ll see how that affects the future of FOX not giving us game shows.
I’m hoping DOLLHOUSE gets renewed and paired with an actually decent show (compared to TSCC AND DOLLHOUSE) to show that Fridays can offer decent entertainment. That or that DOLLHOUSE actually gets decent. It went from barely average in my minds to just awful to barely average. Those better episodes can’t get here soon enough.
Nick, maybe you can answer a question about the “better” episodes: have any panels,etc., thought the upcoming episodes were better than what we’ve seen so far or is Fox just trying to spin us?
“…paired with an actually decent show (compared to TSCC…”
Oh no you di’nt.
Nick, why not just hope that FOX puts TWO actually decent shows on Friday?
I really hope Dollhouse gets better. Fringe got a lot better after the 1st few episodes.
At the risk of being cruel, it seems to me that the majority of Gost Whisperer’s viewers must be clones of the wiped personalities from Dollhouse. Yes, I’m biased. Yes, I revel in my biasity (I have had that word copyrighted. Any use without permission will result in legal action).
“Then again the NCAA Tourney may affect TSCC and DOLLHOUSE next week. Unlike WATCHMEN I don’t think they share the same target demo so hard to say.”
But Dollhouse does share a target demo with BSG, which has its two hour finale next week, starting at 9PM, Dollhouse’s slot. FOX will absolutely be expecting a drop next week.
Fox will expect a drop because Dollhouse is going against that ratings juggernaut known as Battlestar Galactica? Are we really expecting BSG’s numbers to go through the roof for its finale next week?
XD i think it hilarious that you guys are thinking that a 1.6 show is a sound investment!
BTW the watchmen excuse seems kinda moot -> 25.1 mill$$$ on the Friday
Flashpoint was good last night,but it wont be back for 2 weeks.. Still i don t see what the big deal over a 1.9 is considering they lead their timeslot.
Trust me, TSCC is one of Fox’s most successful shows. It is it’s most popular show on its website as reported by internet tracking tools. It will also get boosted by Terminator: Salvation and hence it’s a very good investment.
Remember, Firefly barely had an audience, it had crap ratings, and it’s episodes were displayed in bad order and the show got canceled–but it became one of the most successful sci-fi shows and even got a movie even though it never even completed 1 season. You can’t rely on Neilsen ratings all the time, it’s very inaccurate, they don’t even measure 1% of the population. It could be mere coincidence that a lot of the people who have the Neilsen boxes are older audiences.
I watched all the shows, I watched Dollhouse with great expectations, I was let down. I watched Fringe, with really high expectations, I liked it, but I wasn’t extremely happy. If you’re out here, saying how you don’t like TSCC or don’t think it will be successful, you haven’t watched all the episodes and aren’t seeing the numbers I am.
“Fox will expect a drop because Dollhouse is going against that ratings juggernaut known as Battlestar Galactica? Are we really expecting BSG’s numbers to go through the roof for its finale next week?”
Misses the point entirely.
The audiences overlap. BSG starts at 9PM next week, not 10PM, and so anyone who currently watches Dollhouse at 9 and then BSG at 10 most likely is going to be skipping Dollhouse live to watch BSG live, which will lower Dollhouse’s live ratings.
Jonathan, I do not trust you because you are wrong. Your wish for something to be true won’t make it true, and you continually stating something that isn’t true won’t make it true either.
We are seeing the numbers and they are not good. Even with a week’s worth of DVR viewing it doesn’t do as well as Cops and America’s Most Wanted.
The numbers you are seeing must only exist in your imagination.
LOL at ratings juggernaut BSG.
“Trust me, TSCC is one of Fox’s most successful shows.”
No, just no. There isn’t much else to say.
In my defence Robert I was at least being sarcastic with the ratings juggernaut comment.
And b!X I didn’t miss your point I just don’t agree with it – I don’t BSG is a big enough show to be worrying anyone regardless of the audience overlap. Will Dollhouse see a drop next week because of the BSG finale? Maybe but unless the entire BSG audience is watching Dollhouse every week I’m not buying that as an excuse.
“It could be mere coincidence that a lot of the people who have the Neilsen boxes are older audiences.”
This is really not true. Look, I get that the system is not flawless, but it’s a statistically sound methodology Nielsen employs here and this “OMG, Nielsen is so outdated, the worst rated shows are actually the most succesful ones” is mostly an internet meme that clueless people repeat ad nauseum.
There are some legit concerns with Nielsen’s ability to keep up with new media or to aptly reach college dorms or to always represent niche markets correctly, but it’s a well-crafted sample size in regards to age, gender, income, whathaveyou. Saying that TSCC does badly in ratings, because Nielsen only gives boxes to old people is as amusing as saying 90210 does badly, because Nielsen only counts male viewers. It’s also equally as wrong.
Alex, I was appreciating your sarcasm. And no, I don’t think it will go through the roof though it wouldn’t surprise me if it got back to the levels of the 4.5 season premiere (~2.1M).
Robert, why is it so difficult for you, and others like you, to factor into your conclusions that TSCC is a long term investment that absolutely will pay off with a third season?
Yes, the ratings alone demand it be cancelled. But a show like this has so many other factors contributing to its survival that other shows simply don’t have. So technically, TSCC should be cancelled… were it any other show. But being what it is, and the popularity it doubtlessly has (Nielsons not withstanding), this show has a chance to survive.
I think, no matter what you say here, TSCC’s chances for renewal are still in the 50/50 margin. It honestly could go either way, and FOX’s decision will be based on whether they’re willing to invest in a long term project. Given the success that Terminator Salvation promises, this show could become a goldmine in the third season.
And for those who say that the film won’t affect the show, I have this to say:
After the film “101 Dalmatians” was released, there was a worldwide clamor for people wanting to buy/adopt dalmatian puppies. This may not apply to a film like TS, but you can be sure that fans of that movie will check out the show and likely stay as loyal viewers.
But like I said: 50/50 chances at the moment.
We’ll just have to wait until May 19th to find out what’s happening to the show.
On a TSCC note, I assume that there’s a TSCC season 1 DVD set avaliable, right? How did that do? I’d say that would be a pretty good indication of how succesful the show is away from neilsen numbers. I’m assuming at this point that since none of the TSCC fans have ever really brought up DVD sales that the sales weren’t through the roof…
Veran, why is it not clear to you that a scripted show that pulls a 1.2 adults 18-49 rating doesn’t pay off for anyone on *broadcast* television?
On a second TSCC note – why do people cling to the notion that the fourth Terminator movie is going to save the show?
Lets for a moment assume that T4 is a huge hit and that people are now interested in the Terminator franchise again so they decide to check out the Terminator show on Fox, do you really think TSCC is going to scratch the same itch as the movie does? It may or may not be a well written show but it doesn’t have much in the way of overlap with the new film.
Veran, let me ask you a question. My understanding is that TSCC has little to do with the actual movies. Same universe, totally different story. And TSCC’s audience has shrunk on a pretty steady basis since it first premiered last year. So why would fans of a movie be more loyal to a show that has little to do with that movie than people who set out to watch that show?
And Robert I’m prepared to be proved wrong but I think your BSG prediction for next week is optimistic.
“Trust me, TSCC is one of Fox’s most successful shows. ”
Sorry, this made me laugh out loud. I’m a bad man.
Alex, I don’t think b!X is saying it’s an excuse (these ratings for Dollhouse are not excusable), I’m thinking he’s saying it’s a reason why it might rate better next week.
BSG gets about 1.5 mil viewers on average, but a good, good portion of that will be 18-49 sci-fi geeks. You know, nearly all of them. That’s a chunk of DOLLHOUSE’s audience. It’s not like it’s a one off special event of BSG, either – it’s the series finale. People will watch it live, and DVR Dollhouse. I expect the 18-49 demo to take a bit of a hit.
With regards to Terminator, by the way – I believe FOX’s upfronts are scheduled for BEFORE THE MOVIE EVEN COMES OUT.
I meant “why it might NOT rate better” above.
Did I or did I not say that ratings for Dollhouse would go up, up, up!? Answer: yes, yes I did! Go me! And I also said that when ratings went up, I’d have an epic poem! I call the poem, “Dollhouse Has the Best Numbers So Far Of Any Original Scripted Friday Night Programming for FOX in a Decade!” Here’s the beginning!
Props to my main man Joss Whedon, for despite a lousy lead-in,
His show’s finally succeedin’, the ratings are no longer bleedin’!
Thank you, oh Eliza Dushku, for your front side and your tush, too!
Critics may think you’re made of wood. But I think you’re pretty darn good!
Justice, Vanished, Jezebel James– These are some of the marquee names
Of FOX Friday night shows more lame In the scripted shows ratings game!
Jonny Zero started its 18-49 score at 2.2; Then it hit the floor!
(“That could happen here,” you might be thinking, but if so, then you’ve been drinking!
No, Dollhouse will not be sinking! Oh, and Dollhouse is not stinking!)
6 years ago, John Doe started at
4.3, but then you knew that! Add in DVRs and Dollhouse is flat!
Dollhouse’s ratings are so much better! Disagree and you’ll get a letter!
Plus Dushku looks good in a sweater! Even better when she’s wetter!
Dollhouse! Dollhouse!! Dollhouse!!! Dollhouse!!!!
Gossi, I can see Dollhouse ratings going down one tick attributable to BSG. Much more than that I won’t buy.
Brace yourselves, Dollhouse fans. The numbers will almost certainly drop next week due to the early start (at least on the east coast, though I don’t know about the rest of the country) of the BSG series finale.
But gossi if Dollhouse’s numbers drop next week that’s exactly what the excuse will be – It was competing with BSG, which is and of itself an hilarious statement on many levels.
I agree with the basic concept that there’s an audience overlap between Dollhouse and BSG and that the BSG finale next week might hit Dollhouse’s numbers but I don’t think anyone can count that as a credible reason for a drop. This is after all BSG a show notorious for pulling bad numbers vs. its hype and press. If Dollhouse can’t hold its own against that then its in worse trouble then it looks.
EDIT – I’m with Julia on the Dollhouse vs. BSG numbers for next week.
Alex, I’m not deny people will wheel out excuses for Dollhouse regardless. Because fans do. They always do. It’s like the people saying the Terminator movie will save the series, when the decision (and announcement at the upfronts!) will be before the movie even comes out. Denial with fans: I call it the Fanial effect.
I do thing, though, Dollhouse will take a small 18-49 hit, along with a spike in DVR usage, next week. And there’s absolutely a reason why, as we’ve covered.
I’ve seen bits of episodes forward from where we are now and read ahead script wise, and I honestly don’t know which way the ratings will go. The show gets better; if you’re paying attention and are invested. If you’re not invested or you aren’t paying attention, you aren’t going to have a clue what’s happening in Dollhouse very shortly as it disappears down it’s own mythologyhole.
@Robert: There are many answers to that, the most prominent being that this is a clever show in a den of idiots, to be perfectly blunt. The show itself is not to be faulted for this. To be fair though, there were some creative decisions/directions that may have turned off the average viewer (Sarah-centric episodes), but these pale in comparison to how much this show has been messed around by scheduling decisions, strikes, and movie releases.
Honestly, this show has had more than its share of bad luck. Give it a break.
@Julia: TSCC is more character driven than the films. You couldn’t make a show that’s basically T2 every week. It’s impossible. Arguably, there has been mistakes with the second season, but Season 3 will very likely be retooled by the writers to better reflect the core themes of the films, which will attract the movie fans.
@Gossi: Yes, the decision will be officially announced by May 19th, but that doesn’t mean that FOX won’t predict T4’s success and add it to their decision for renewal or cancellation.
Veran I’m sorry but the success or otherwise of T4 isn’t going to play into Fox’s decision to not pick up a third season of TSCC. If TSCC were on the bubble then its possible (although I still think unlikely) that Fox might take the movie into account but the show isn’t on the bubble, its gone. Frankly you should be thankful Fox are letting it finish its run at this point and enjoy the final episodes.
I will point out that I’m a TSCC fan, and I think it’s done. Numbers wise. If you’re looking at numbers, detach all emotion – it’s just business.
“On a TSCC note, I assume that there’s a TSCC season 1 DVD set avaliable, right? How did that do?”
I just took a couple of minutes to snoop through the DVD sales charts at the-numbers.com to figure this out and TSCC was only in the TOP 30 DVDs for two weeks, in which it sold about 100,000 units. Looking at other releases at approx. the same time, this puts it well ahead of Pushing Daisies or The Big Bang Theory, about en par with NCIS and at maybe half of what House or Dexter moved. I guess, that can’t really be called too bad, but it’s probably not enough to argue the DVD sales are making up for all the money the show isn’t making on actual TV.
After having had massively high expectations for Dollhouse’s quality, and then after having dumped all over it here when I was just as massively disappointed by the pilot, I have to admit that stopping the drop is at least some small measure of good news. You cannot trend up until you actually stop dropping down, so Dollhouse has at least hit Step One.
The other thing I have to mention is that last night’s episode was actually good. It wasn’t great, but it was good. If I were not such a Whedon fanatic, then I would have dumped this show after the second week. But after a pretty decent episode last week, this week was actually good. If those had been the first two episodes, then I would have actually been excited about this show and where it was going.
It sucks that the show took five weeks to get to this point, but that’s life in the big city.
Next week is the infamous “sixth episode,” which everyone and his brother associated with the show has been pumping up as being the point when the show takes a huge step up in quality. After last night, I am now actually a little excited to see it. If the episode is really that good, and if the ratings can tick up another tenth, instead of going right back down again, then Nick C is right and Dollhouse has a real shot at renewal.
Put it this way, who actually thought Dollhouse would even stay steady this week, let alone tick up a tenth? I sure didn’t. So if it could actually get back up to a 2.0 by the end of the season, then, based on everything that has been reported about its low cost element, I would be willing to bet that it will get renewed.
And let me tell you, that was something I would never have believed after the pilot.
Still, it has to get there first. I will be willing to give it a small break next week. BSG may be ratings anemic, but it does share the exact same audience with DH. We are only talking one or two hundred thousand people here. It’s not crazy to think a show like BSG can siphon off a couple of hundred grand worth of viwers for what is, after all, the series finale.
So if it drops next week, fine, but if it doesn’t come right back up to a 1.7 or higher the next week, kiss it goodbye. Going up a tick one week can be a fluke, so it really needs to repeat that performance within the next two weeks before anyone can honestly call it a trend. And please, people, don’t give us a lot of crap about NCCA Hoops. That’s not remotely the same demo. If Dollhouse cannot stand up to college basketball, then Dollhouse is even more D.O.A. than it has looked for the past month.
Still, what a strange television landscape we have now, where we are even talking about a 2.0 being a good reason for keeping any show. Broadcast television is really in the toilet.
gossi, you are correct. Fox TV upfront is May 18. The verdict on TSCC will be announced no later than that date. Terminator: Salvation premieres May 21.
wow. those that are saying terminator has a chance must not understand the whole… y’now… ratings system. terminaot fans: nobody is saying that terminator will be cancelled because the ratings are bad. they are saying that because the ratings are SO BAD that it’s fox’s LOWEST RATED SCRIPTED SHOW! in fact it was the lowest rated scripted show of the week among all four main networks! the #1 lowest! last place! nbc’s reality disaster The Chopping Block schooled it in the demo! it lost in head to head competition with 1 new and one repeat episode of howie do it for crying out loud!
YAYA CONGRATS TO TERMINATOR AND DOLLHOUSE. I LOVE BOTH SHOWS AND ALWAYS MAKE SURE IM HOME TO WATCH AND SUPPORT THEM!!! I HOPE THE #s GO EVEN HIGHER. THEY DESERVE SO MUCH BETTER THEN WHAT THEY GET…:)
i think flashpoint won’t be renewed next season.. it had really pour rating and lower audience than GH & NBRS, IT’S THE WORST NEW CBS SHOW!. i think cbs should keep cold case and put it on friday after GH, they have similar audience, and maybe it will get more than 12 million. im so sorry for friday nigh light, it must be cancelled, it’s terrible..
If anybody wants any hilarity, the final episode of Dollhouse airs 3 days before the FOX upfronts.
If Flashpoint is anywhere near as cheap as rumored, it should be renewed and stay an off-season show. Or while everyone else is scrambling to fix their Fridays, CBS could try opening up Saturdays again. IDK, it’s not actually doing horribly, especially with the amount of people trying to spin the numbers Dollhouse and TSCC get as good, but it’s not really cutting it in that time slot for CBS.
Julia, I know Network TV execs, and I know Kevin (and Pete) … if they give up on DOLLHOUSE chances are they’ll be back to planning more ARE YOU SMARTER THAN A FIFTH GRADER? for next season. The game shows will win out, and we may get a pilot there, but it will be in the same situation as DOLLHOUSE, one they originally felt good about but then said “WTF is this?!?”
So by not giving up on DOLLHOUSE it will mean they’ll pair it up with something to enhance Fridays. Something that will do better than TSCC (not hard) or PB (which will do better than TSCC) and also give DOLLHOUSE a stronger lead in. I’m under the impression that DOLLHOUSE gets above average soon which for me is a statement of high praise. So it could be that next year Friday has something decent on it to go along with CBS.
liza, you can’t compare Flashpoint to other new CBS shows. It’s on Fridays and so far, it’s winning the timeslot.
latest episode of Terminator:SSC is the second in the Amazon.com best sellers after BSG in Video on demand:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/digital-video/ref=pd_dp_ts_atv_1
it sells better than dolllhouse, the office, house.. etc
So, why people pay money to watch this “LOWEST RATED SCRIPTED SHOW!”.
either these people or nielsen numbers must be wrong!!
I thick TSCC deserves better.
let me now attempt to convey two extremely important reasons why the fact that t4 is coming out will have absolutely zero good affect on tscc getting renewed. 1) what if terminator 4 bombs. i know what you are thinking “impossible!!” well, the last one did $150 mil as a forth of july movie, which is good, but certainly not great as far as summer movies go. REGARDLESS, do you really think fox is going to risk this kind of a commitment on the chance that t4 MAY do well? i wouldn’t be so sure. “but i know it’s gonna be huge! it looks awesome! and besides, christian bale is in it and he was just in dark knight and that made $600 mil! it’s a sure thing!” ok then, 2) lets just ASSUME that terminator 4 is a box office SMASH. huge. so what? we all know that hype is much bigger before an event than after. the fact is that tscc goes off the air over a month before t4 hits theaters, and, if it were to return, wouldnt air a season premiere until 3-4 months AFTER t4 hits theaters. there is a chance that t4 might actually be on dvd before the show would hypothetically return! almost any “t4 buzz” would be long gone.
People aren’t thinking this through entirely on ratings for next week. On one hand you have the NCAA tourney. Which will steal some viewers from DOLLHOUSE AND BSG. On the other hand you have CBS’ normal viewers who don’t like basketball. Some portion of them are going to watch something else.
I haven’t watched BSG since season 2, but I’ll tune in for the finale… on my DVR. I’ll be watching basketball.
Nick C, isn’t Pete, like, a goner?
Robert, the movie matters in the sense that Warner paid FOX off to make sure that TSCC isn’t pulled early. They don’t want bad PR about the brand before the movie comes out. Bad ratings are bad ratings, but a pulled show is worse and gets attention.
Hagi — downloads on Amazon are probably less than 1/10th as many as they are on iTunes. On iTunes, it only takes less than 25,000 downloads to be #1, so on Amazon, that may be less than 2500, either way it’s definitely less than 25,000.
gossi, Pete is the new guy.
Gossi, Peter Liguori out, Peter Rice in. Pete lives on!
Nick, I buy that, but I don’t but predictions for a blockbuster having any bearing whatsoever on renewal prospects. It doesn’t even seem like Warner Bros is that high on the series in terms of promoting the movie. It’s not like they paid FOX to hold a few episodes back for May. It will go off the air more than a month before the movie comes out.
Nick C has a good point. A canceled show is news to *FAR* more people than low ratings. Almost no one knows what ratings are. (as we push that boulder up the hill!) Everyone who watches the show would know if it was pulled from the line up. (although based on the comment dates on some of our older canceled show threads, it takes a very long time for some people to realize it).
Note to idizzle: Every journalist who was working on a ” TV is for idiots and the Nielsens are rigged ” in the 1960’s and 1970’s did their research, opened their J-school level book on statistics and figured out that the Nielsen samples ARE scientific, just as you say. You can hate the taste of the public, you can hate the Lowest Common Denominater principle, you can hate moneygrubbing ad and sales mentalities which ruin ” art for art’s sake,” etc, but the Nielsens’ samples give the TV corporations what they want, who give the sponsors what they want, who give all of us … what we get. I enjoy the Saturday morning Fights on this site regarding Friday night TV because clearly the model that says ” nerds ” stay home on Friday night is true. Nerds meaning scifi and fantasy fans.( Maybe you can translate nerdy girls – the ones who were supposed to watch that hideous Blossom-Full House-TGIF virginal drivel – into Goths or just New Agers who like Hewitt in her role in GW.) The demo numbers for GW prove women 18-49 like this show. If any place existed, or if the market existed in the eyes of major sponsors, for opinions about Scifi Channels original giant grasshopper movies or reruns of middle-level horror flicks to flourish, I’ll bet it would turn out some of the same people who feel passionately about Sarah Connor, Heroes, Dollhouse etc would be posting there. Friday night seems to be the best place for the nets to try historically low-rated scifi and fantasy shows, just as Sci is using Saturday afternoons when the jocks are watching or playing sports to try low-budget horror and Lifetime and even TNT use the Superbowl to program movies that appeal more to women. It would be interesting if someday major sponsors cared enough about the cable demo – still way behind the nets share of the demo – to make basic cable ratings headline news the way network ratings have bbeen for the past thirty years.
Nick, I didn’t know you meant that Peter. You may want to say their surnames at the moment!
***NOTE SPOILER ABOUT T4 IN THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH***
Robert, I agree, but the movie in this sense had an affect on the show. If the movie is a success it may have an affect on SCI FI. Lets be honest the Brand has been tarnished since T3. TSCC isn’t helping it. T4 is either a hit or a huge miss. I’m betting on a miss, when fans find out that John Conner is dead, and replaced by a Skin Job/Terminator they’re likely to jump ship. The brand could be forever killed. All praise McG!
I’m a fan of TSCC but one lovely barometer of its lack of success is the fact that in the UK/Irish market which is pretty much the biggest market for US imports its shown on the tiny Virgin1.
I’m sorry if it was a juggernaut of success it would be on Channel 4, BBC, UTV or Sky One. Tis sad but True *cue Metallica*
CBS would save T:SCC if it went through a makeover so extreme, not even Ty Pennington could conceive of it.
Imagine this: Terminator: Sarah: Plain and Tall
a) Somewhere out West, mid 1870’s. Sarah is all alone on her farm, way out in the middle of nowhere.
b) Instead of evil guys like Snideley Whiplash, or the gang from Rio Bravo, think Terminators…
c) …and they’re after Sarah because she’s the distant ancestor to Sarah Connor (Sarah Chalke).
d) But Sarah is also the distant ancestor to a bloke named MacGyver…
e) …which explains why she’s oh so handy with farm implements…
f) …and she falls in love with Artemis Gordon (Kevin Kline), and has his child…
g) …needless to say, James West (Will Smith) is there too…
h) …and romance, wittiness, and many hilarious and explosive battles will ensue…
i) …and CBS would get a 15 share and a 4.0 demo, and live happily ever after
gossi, my bad, I didn’t know the other Peter well, but I know Pete Rice. Pete is one of the few good guys in an industry full of the opposite. He is very quick to pull the plug on mediocrity too. He has pulled the plugs on movies while they’re shooting for all the right reasons. He has kept us from having to witness really bad things.
Bill, one problem,though:Fox HAS to cancel TSCC before T4 starts,since their renewals are announced a couple of days before T4 opens.So, are they going to wait until the last minute or cancel it a few weeks before T4 opens?
Nick C, that’s a fucking huge spoiler dude.
Michael, they just won’t renew it, they may say “we’re still considering options on TSCC,” but most likely it won’t even be mentioned.
gossi, yeah we can only hope they’ve changed the script since I last read it. Then I won’t have spoiled anything.
McG gets exec. producer credits on Chuck and Supernatural. On a guess, I’d probably like TSCC better if he had one there too.
Michael, if you read my comment above, the Fox TV upfront is 3 days before Terminator: Salvation opens. TSCC will not be on the announced fall schedule. Fox may or may not say anything about it. Regardless, the movie will open and any noise about what might or might not happen to TSCC will be lost in the movie premiere marketing. Once the movie opens, the fate of TSCC will be meaningless to its prospects.
Those holding out hope that TSCC will return *next* season because it’s either good for the Terminator:Salvation movie or vice versa are really kidding themselves.
Robert, as a TV Show Producer McG is actually rather good. He stables good talent and he leaves them alone. As a movie Director and producer he’s scary. We’re talking CHARLIES ANGELS and his SUPERMAN project with JJ Abrams where the origin of SUPERMAN is totally rewritten (Krypton no longer explodes, etc) and the horrible REVENGE OF THE NERDS remake that if I’m not mistaken Pete killed when he was at FOX Atomic. Throw in TERMINATOR SALVATION and you have to scratch your head. I’m not sure if the TERMINATOR meets BLADE RUNNER movie will work or not, so far I’m thinking not.
Bill, plus it will be lost in all the other canceled programs from the other networks. That will make sure it’s not singled out like it would be if it was canceled last week and taken off the air.
Please correct me if i am wrong but TSSC has good (or at least reasonable) numbers at itunes, dvd sales, amazon Vod, Fox on demand, hulu, overseas etc… but its numbers are bad only for nielsen rating system (except dvr rate).
you may say that those numbers do not mean anything. However, imho, these numbers indicate that TSCC is a good show, people has interest on this show and it adds value to commercials supporting this show.
I think TSCC deserves better.
I suggest everyone to watch remaining four episodes of season two.. They will be awesome…
thank you
Hagi, TSCC does have good iTunes numbers. But good iTunes numbers mean less than 25,000 downloads per episode can still get you the #1 spot. It’s just not a big enough deal.
combined with Hulu, On Demand, etc, it doesn’t wind up being enough to save it. Throwing DVR #s in doesn’t wind up enough to make it viable either. From what I hear, its DVD sales were not great.
Thank you for explaining
If this is the last season, at least we have four great episodes to watch. I suggest everyone do not miss those eps. shows having quality must be rewarded.
This summer…
Imagine a world where robots rule the world and use Bermanesque logic!
Robot: I like that show. Therefore it is a winner.
In this bleak future, broadcast networks only air cult hits, and former television fans are forced to hide out of doors!…
Former Tv Fan: Every since the Joss Whedon Network went to all Dollhouse Fridays, i’ve been forced to get fresh air. This is tyranny!
… and rogue robots terminate everyone who stands in the way of the shows they are programmed to protect, especially if they work for the evil Neilsen Corp!…
Bermanator: Your logic does not agree with my interests.
Neilsen Employee: But your show is tanking…
Bermanator: You must be BERMANATED!
On May 21st get ready for…
BERMANATOR 4: Rise of the Low Ratings!
“I think TSCC deserves better.”
It certainly does. These days with reality shows you can’t judge a show’s quality solely on it’s audience number. There are a lot of, ’simple-minded’ people out there who just aren’t able or don’t want to take the time to indulge in a ‘thinking show’. As time goes on, it seems more and more mindless drivel is coming on TV.
Of course, having the authors on this site sworn to burying TSCC doesn’t help those who haven’t seen it and want to know what it’s about.
Fox just doesn’t know how to properly cultivate shows anymore. They screwed Futurama, Family Guy (before Cartoon Network made it a goldmine), and Dark Angel just to name a few.
@Nick C: That “spoiler” was from an early script that McG has since scrapped in favour of a better one. He made a public statement that debunked the possibility of it being in the final script. I believe Christian Bale also commented on this idea being cast away.
In regards to TSCC, I still maintain that it has a 50/50 chance for renewal.
If not, then I’m sure another network will pick it up.
WB gets enough from the show’s overseas success to keep it running.
Overseas success? In it UK it airs on Virgin1. I haven’t checked the viewing figures, but Virgin’s penetration is next to nothing here.
This is just a sincere question since I don’t know anything about the subject: How is Hibberd more reliable than Berman?
Veran, that might be. However, the trailer had the setup of skin jobs in it that was exactly like the same script. “He doesn’t know he’s a machine!” The punchline was that Conner was one as well.
Great if they ditched it, but both those people were well on board when that script existed. If they’ve altered it, they have. I wouldn’t be surprised, it’s a bonehead move to keep it that way.
gossi, you get the quote of the week on here: “Virgin’s penetration,” ….
Nick C, Marcus Wright has a past and a purpose, but that original script was re-written by both McG and Bale. Now unless John somehow becomes a machine like Marcus, but not Marcus wearing his face, then that might work. I’m skeptical about the fans’ reaction to that though.
TSCC is broadcast all over the world, from Britain to France to Germany to Brazil. WB have said it’s very popular overseas, so I have to wonder why the US aren’t so fond of it.
Here’s a question: isn’t TSCC still making a lot of money for FOX?
Cassie, I think it’s likely that because there are several media outlets reporting the same numbers are Hibberd, Robert and Bill decided to go with those numbers.
Julia,
Thanks for explaining it
Did I not say that Joss’s Biggest Fan would rally to his defenses and in the process forsake any and all decent human interaction to prove with his immaculate, Excalibur wit that we are all lesser human beings than him because we believed that a show might actually get good? Answer: I did. *In the future*.
I mean, really people. You might as well just give up on Dollhouse. The ratings are a lost cause. That temporary bump? You’re just passing through the eye of Hurricane Canceled. Prepare for a rollercoaster ride into mediocrity, you stupid cows, because my man Joss’s Biggest Fan is not only clairvoyant, he can be clairvoyant while rapping. And if that doesn’t make you quake in your pathetic little armchairs, then clearly your opinion isn’t valid and you don’t deserved what little respect Joss’s Biggest Fan might offer you should you bow at his feet.
There isn’t a person more talented or more deserving of our respect and hopeless, blind devotion to what some call his megalomania (but what I call “divine truth”). This is a man who against all odds has the sheer force of conviction to not only conjure up the words to describe these great atrocities committed by Joss Whedon but to do something as galling and prophetic as to types them into a computer and submit his comment to all you dumb, mouth-breathing troglodytes who still cling to those antiquated notions of trust, hope and faith. He is such a firm believer in his cause it is awe inspiring to see him fight in the face of reasoned analysis by experts and blasphemous numbers that don’t support his cause.
His words and actions are my Scripture and they have profoundly transformed me from a callow, vicious human being to a callow, vicious human being with a zealous cause thrust upon me by a higher being more callow and vicious than I. And for that I am eternally grateful.
I don’t expect that Joss’ Biggest Fan respond to this personally. For a plebe like me to expect that would be to grovel at the feet of a god whose skin can only be described as a porcelain sheen.
And I mean, even Jesus still has to live with his mother.
When do the Friday Night Smackdown ratings come in??
Cassie, both are usually very reliable with the numbers. The instances where there were differences like this are extremely rare.
Dylan, we don’t get MyNet ratings on an overnight basis, but I typically post Smackdown ratings on Tuesday when we get them via the weekly ratings.
Dan says:
“‘I think TSCC deserves better.’
“It certainly does. These days with reality shows you can’t judge a show’s quality solely on it’s audience number. There are a lot of, ’simple-minded’ people out there who just aren’t able or don’t want to take the time to indulge in a ‘thinking show’. ”
Dan, before calling people “simple-minded,” you might want to note that the argument is transitive–there’s no shortage of people in my neck of the woods who are entirely unimpressed by the magic box with the moving pictures itself, and soap operas about killer robots don’t exactly wind up at the top of the compost heap through this lens.
Just wanted to chime in on T:TSCC’s “overseas success”: It does TERRIBLE in Germany… After the first few episodes were shown in prime time(8PM), the show was quickly shoved off into a late night slot on Friday because of the abysmal ratings. The remaining episodes of season one are now shown at around 12AM/1AM on Friday night. That’s certainly no success story! So neither in the UK, nor in Germany (two of the biggest European markets for US TV productions), is the show even close to being a success…
Its amazing how Flashpoint keeps getting negative remarks.
‘It FAILED to earn a 2.0???”
Since min Jan, it’s ratings are almost double of
anything else in it’s time slot.
And it’s either the 2nd or 3rd most watched show on Friday.
Something about it being Canadian upsets the writer here?
tscc is dead end of (i like it but its dead)
dollhouse still has a chance but it will have to finish the season with about 5m viewers and a 2.0+ in the demo or it will be dead too
“TSCC is broadcast all over the world, from Britain to France to Germany to Brazil. WB have said it’s very popular overseas, so I have to wonder why the US aren’t so fond of it.”
Yeah, because Warner Brothers would just come out and say it does abysmally all over the world, no one wants to watch this shit, we paid FOX to keep it on their air. Seriously? ABC said Castle was a huge success and I have some swampland on the market if you’d like.
You guys are so pessimistic it pisses me off. It’s like you want good shows to die.
Bad shows get canceled, not good ones. Cops and America’s Most Wanted get a better rating because they have been on for so long, that they have a steady growing fan base from years.
“Bad shows get canceled, not good ones.”
Good shows get cancelled all the time. Not everybody shows up for a fun party. It’s life, it’s TV.
Jonathan, We just report the numbers and let folks know what they mean based on historical patterns. As for “Bad” shows being canceled and not “good” ones. To over simplify, shows with “bad” ratings get canceled, shows with “good” ratings do not. For what they cost and when they air, Cops and AMW get great ratings.
I’ve said some of this elsewhere. Think about the premise of TSCC. Everything takes place between the end of T2 and the beginning of T3. Content-wise, the series can’t change anything already established in the Franchise canon. So, it can run in a fairly elastic way. We could have four eps that cover two years, or twelve that all take place in the same week. It would work just fine.
Warner Bros. has a vested interest in the success of both TSCC and Terminator:Salvation. Which is the bigger investment? T:Salvation. So, in my jaded way, I tend to think TSCC is intended to provide a kind of advance press to keep the franchise in the public mind until the machinery (no pun intended) for T:Salvation got off the ground. The purpose of TSCC is to boost T4, not the other way around.
So on the one hand, I’m thinking no one will want the series to suck any oxygen from T4, and I agree with Nick C that there won’t be an announcement that goes beyond it being on the table, in an indefinite way. On the other, if the movie generates enthusiasm, and there’s still cash on the table that a third season of TSCC could garner for the production companies, there will be a late decision to have an S3, and it will probably join the line up in January of 2010 as opposed to the Fall.
Either way, in addition to ratings, a second determining factor in renewal is whether TSCC remains useful in the larger scheme of the Terminator Franchise. No one knows yet.
Here comes the new part: My two cents in the discussion about over the air ratings versus other media of consumption. Yes, absolutely, internet consumption of whatever kind is not as profitable right now as having viewers in their seats in front of the television when the show airs. That may not be true in five years. This show may just possibly be an early example of why. Also, just maybe, those off-air methods of consumption (and the reasons behind them) are being noticed by decision makers.
So, yes, if all things were as they have always been, TSCC would be toast, would be croûtons, in fact. Things are not as they have always been (economy, upcoming major movie, appearance of new media, changing viewing patterns),and it carries with it some unusual factors, so maybe it isn’t.
Dianne, thank you for your impartial take on the situation. It’s refreshing to see someone who actually takes a logical approach to arguing the point for TSCC, while not ignoring the faults in its situation. The fact that everything you just said, while it does not guarantee us a third season, it does give me hope that we will.
Veran, maybe I’m reading Dianne’s comment wrong, but I don’t see any hope there unless you are still clinging to the hope that anyone (other than the fans) thinks a successful movie will translate to move viewers. She still thinks new media won’t make any money right now, and the comment about economic times seems to mean the opposite of what it should. Current economic climate means fat will be cut. So no TSCC.
(Also, I doubt it’s impartial.)
I’m sorry for Terminator fans, but Terminator is dead. It’s not only dead, it’s also buried.
Many good shows get canceled. This year I will lose one of my favorites: Life. It sucks, but it’s life.
Bill: And remember, Cops and AMW were the first shows Fox had, if I recall – they’re an institution there…
…plus AMW has caught over 1000 crooks now…
…so it’s going to take a nuclear disaster (more than Robert’s 5,000 detonated warheads, and less than 10,000), for FOX to even consider canceling them on Saturdays.
“Overseas success? In it UK it airs on Virgin1. I haven’t checked the viewing figures, but Virgin’s penetration is next to nothing here.”
For the record Virgin1 reaches more homes than Sky1.
To be completely honest I don’t know whether that actually translates to more viewers although I would off the top of my head say that Sky probably has a better daily and weekly average but that doesn’t mean that Virgin isn’t pulling comparable numbers with at least some of their shows. As it stands I don’t see anywhere near enough numbers for either channel to tell you. What I can say is the 95% of the Sky1 line-up isn’t watched by anywhere near as many people as a lot of people think it is.
To be honest though there really isn’t that much difference between which UK broadcaster the US shows are on with the possible exception of the BBC.
As for BSG next week competing with Dollhouse, a lot of west coast viewers on HD cable get an east coast Sci-Fi feed which means a 6pm start. That’s when I’ll be watching (well, delayed for 30 mins so I can catch up via Tivo and skip ads) as will a lot of other BSGeeks out west. BSG will have some impact on Dollhouse, but not as much as some might think.
You’re saying Terminator is dead and nothing about Dollhouse you have got to be kidding me… If Terminator is canceled, Dollhouse will be canceled as well, they both require a budget and they both are successful, but of course, not as much as some networks want–so yeah, they may be canceled, but don’t expect for one minute that dollhouse miraculously survives if TSCC cannot.
And yes Terminator: Salvation would translate into more viewers for the show. How do you think people discover new shows? They see something related, they see a commercial, they tune into the show by accident, or they see a link to it.
Like I said you guys are pessimists, calling something dead before it’s dead just hurts you. You can say it’s not in a good spot, and is in danger, but calling it dead is simply childish. You don’t know the budget, the profit, the advertiser fees to judge that.
On the internet TSCC is a success, perhaps the low ratings is because of the inaccuracy of Neilsen ratings, or more likely because people are downloading more than in the past. There were also a lot of factors that contributed to TSCC’s low ratings. Don’t go out there telling me the show is losing ratings because of it’s writing, it has powerful writing, it’s losing ratings because of bad placement in the schedule, breaks, movies etc.
Was it just a magical coincidence that TSCC had so much ratings in Season 1 and a lot of buzz? One or two bad episodes don’t result in massive drops in ratings either.
As for the future of TSCC, whether there will be a Season 3, it’s definitely possible, the president of Fox entertainment himself has said that advertisers really liked the show and that it was too early to tell whether they would or would not get another season.
TSCC had higher ratings in season 1 because it aired during the strike and competed against reruns…
“TSCC had higher ratings in season 1 because it aired during the strike and competed against reruns…”
We were also on a better night with plenty of promotion to get the word around.
The promotion for this season has been so lacking it’s disgraceful and insulting.
Here’s the some-confirmed some-guessed hopefully-true schedule for the rest of ‘Fox Friday’:
March 20 @ 8PM – Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles S01E19 “Today is the Day (Part 2)”
March 20 @ 9PM – Dollhouse S01E06 “Man On The Street”
March 27 @ 9PM – Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles S01E20 “To The Lighthouse”
March 27 @ 9PM – Dollhouse S01E07 “Echoes”
April 03 @ 8PM – Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles S01E21 “Adam Raised a Cain”
April 03 @ 9PM – Dollhouse S01E08 “Needs”
April 10 @ 9PM – Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles S01E22 “Born to Run” (Season Finale)
April 10 @ 9PM – Dollhouse S01E09 “Haunted”
April 17 @ 8PM – Prison Break S04E17 “The Mother Lode”
April 17 @ 9PM – Prison Break S04E18 “VS.”
April 24 @ 8PM – Prison Break S04E19 “Son of a Bitch”
April 24 @ 9PM – Dollhouse S01E10 “Four Engagements”
May 01 @ 8PM – Prison Break S04E20 “Dominoes”
May 01 @ 9PM – Dollhouse S01E11 “Briar Rose”
May 08 @ 8PM – Prison Break S04E21 “Rate of Exchange”
May 08 @ 9PM – Dollhouse S01E12 “Omega”
May 15 @ 8PM – Dollhouse S01E13 “Epitaph One” (Season Finale)
May 15 @ 9PM – Prison Break S04E22 “Killing Your Number”
May 22 @ 8PM – Prison Break S04E23 “The Old Ball and Chain” (Series Finale Part 1)
May 22 @ 9PM – Prison Break S04E24 “Free” (Series Finale Part 2)
Sorry for 2 mistakes as I wrote 9PM for the same show twice
Veran: “To be fair though, there were some creative decisions/directions that may have turned off the average viewer (Sarah-centric episodes), but these pale in comparison to how much this show has been messed around by scheduling decisions, strikes, and movie releases.”
That’s an assumption on your part. From the comments I’ve seen on TV Web sites, the wider audience simply doesn’t like the show precisely because of issues of overemphasis on it being a “family drama” and the wallowing in psychoanalysis of Sarah Connor (and to a lesser degree, John Connor).
Besides which, there was very little “messing around”. The strike affected everybody – TSCC was lucky in that they got in nine very good episodes with a decent season finale.
In season two, there was very little rescheduling more than one would expect due to sports, and the ratings sucked almost from the beginning. The bottom line there is that the show’s concept and execution (NOT meaning the acting, writing, etc., which were all top notch) simply could not compete against Monday Night Football and Dancing With The Stars. A better visioned show might have done so, which, again, as I’ve said repeatedly, is WHY Fox put it on Mondays – because it was TERMINATOR! It had the only chance a TV show could have to beat MNF and DWTS.
But it failed. That speaks for itself.
Veran: “TSCC is more character driven than the films. You couldn’t make a show that’s basically T2 every week. It’s impossible.”
Irrelevant. There’s no reason a character driven show can’t have plenty of action. And action isn’t even the main issue. What is needed is momentum, suspense, tension, a sense of moving forward to bigger conflicts and resolutions of other conflicts, and pushing the envelope in terms of the concepts involved in the series – none of which occurred for the most part in the first 17 episodes of season 2.
Veran: “Arguably, there has been mistakes with the second season, but Season 3 will very likely be retooled by the writers to better reflect the core themes of the films, which will attract the movie fans.”
There’s no evidence of that anywhere except in one comment from Thomas Dekker that season 3 would like like “an all-new show”. There is no evidence whatsoever that Josh Friedman thinks he did anything wrong with season 2. None as of WonderCon a couple Sundays ago. He just barely managed to hint that he was cognizant of the criticism of the pacing of the overall story arc and the individual episodes. Barely. But he made excuses for that which were just lame.
Friedman doesn’t get it. His vision of Terminator is nothing like Cameron’s or McG’s.
McG had a Terminator: Salvation panel at WonderCon. He ran that panel like the showman he is. The trailers show a movie that is very likely going to be a major blockbuster, even if Nick C is right about the ending (and McG said the ending might piss people off in an interview.)
Compare that to the TSCC panel, which was more of a wake. Josh simply didn’t evidence any energy at all for his own show.
And poor Summer Glau wasn’t at all happy about where her character OR the show ended up, that was clear from her response to my question which was precisely about that.
The ratings bounce we saw this week might well have been due to there being no major movie release this week and/or possibly related to some degree by Summer’s guest appearance on Big Bang Theory. But I think the most reasonable explanation is that last week’s episode – with the death of a major character – finally convinced a few more people to watch this week’s episode. This week’s episode was not much better than last week if at all. Next week may be better. If next week’s ratings are higher, it will be because of the cumulative effect of this week’s and last week’s higher quality.
I didn’t like last week’s episode because of the continuing damage done to the Cameron character. However, my preferences don’t reflect the wider audience or the hardcore fans. So I can understand how last week’s episode may have attracted additional viewers to this week’s episode, explaining the bounce.
But that leaves only four episodes. No way those four episodes are going to bounce the show up to the ratings it needs to survive. There’s simply been too much damage.
It will be nice if TSCC ends on a decent high note, with some redemption of the characters Friedman has abused all season. But I’m not holding my breath. As I’ve said before, I can longer trust Josh Friedman to do right by this show. He’s going to have to prove he has a clue by season’s end.
And even then, it’s not likely to resurrect the show for a third season.
“I don’t think CW, or more correctly, Dawn would move Vampire Diaries to fridays if it gets picked up. If anything she’ll probably move the Thursday drama’s to either friday or sunday and pit it their or weds. I have no doubt in my mind she’ll pick up the 90210 and GG spin-offs. EHC and The Game might move to 7 and 7:30 on sundays, if they’re renewed.”
I don’t see the CW moving the Thursday lineup — nothing else in their show stable can stand up to the Thursday competition. If the CW has Vampire Diaries or other fantasy type shows, why would they want to air them in direct competition with SciFi, Fox and worse, CBS?
That should be “I can no longer trust”.
Prison Break will be as tiring as ever.Who even watches tv on Friday night anyway.The only good thing is Jennifer’s show is doing well though.
“You’re saying Terminator is dead and nothing about Dollhouse you have got to be kidding me”
Are you new? There’s been doom and gloom about Dollhouse everywhere. I believe it’s pretty much how the thread here started off today. Maybe there is some more hope that Dollhouse might eventually trend up, because it’s a new show that has not yet been sampled and rejected by large audiences, but I can pretty much name the people/person who says it’s going to get renewed at current numbers off the top of my head.
Jonathan in reality a lot of people have been proclaiming that Dollhouse is dead although personally I don’t currently agree with that assessment. However the reason people aren’t proclaiming Dollhouse’s death with the degree of certainty that they are TSCC is because they’re two different shows with completely different circumstances surrounding them.
TSCC is a show that’s spent the year bleeding viewers and massively underperforming people’s expectations for it and I’m talking purely about its numbers and not the quality of the episodes. Then when it somehow got brought back for a back nine and shipped to Friday’s it managed to continue underperforming despite the massively lowered bar of airing Friday nights. You can blame its scheduling or promotion but I don’t personally believe either of those are true, you don’t bleed viewers because the scheduling is bad or the promotion isn’t good enough – people who watched last week don’t suddenly forget the show is on they just decide they don’t want to watch it.
In contrast to that Dollhouse is a brand new show and whilst its bled viewers for its first four episode this week the number has levelled off and there are hopes that the improving episode quality will lead to good word of mouth and an upward trend for the final episodes. At this stage its possible that Dollhouse comes back for a second season. A 0.05 increase in its 18-49 for each of its remaining episodes would take it just short a 2.0, which I think most people suspect would get it renewed. Whether that increase happens is another question but its much easier to imagine a scenario where that happens than the out and out miracle TSCC would need to come back for a third season.
And once again the movie isn’t going to make a single bit of difference to the future of the show.
Firstly the fact that the movie is released after Fox’s up fronts is a pretty big problem. Secondly I’m not entirely sure I understand the logic behind ‘people went to see Terminator 4 so they’ll tune into this show despite it having no real connection to the movie’. None of the actors are the same and the storylines aren’t connected plus there’s a world of difference between watching a mindless action movie and watching a TV show every week. More to the point who the hell is still going to care about Terminator 4 when a potential third season of TSCC starts? Its not like they’d be launching at the same time.
Also lets not forget that this isn’t the first Terminator movie – there have been three others its not like people aren’t aware of the Terminator franchise. Also surely this ‘T4 effect’ should already be being felt by TSCC? Trailers and hype for the movie has started.
But hey since we seem to think summer blockbusters are going to make a TV show more viable, should I start pitching a Star Trek revival?
I suggest renaming this website to the Dollhouse/TSCC Cancellation Countdown.
Bring on Virtuality and Sienna Guillory, just don’t send it to Fridays to start. I’m also almost entirely caught up with Fring, so I’ll have something to watch when the aforementioned are canned.
I feel bad for Summer Glau, she finally got some screen time this season.
The CW could air Sun:7PM OTH 8PM 90210 9PM: Melrose Mon: 8PM:GG 9PM:GG spinoff Tue 8PM: SUPERNATURAL 9PM:Vampire Diaries WED 8PM:ATW 9PM:EHC/GAME THU 8PM:SMALLVILLE 9PM:REAPER FRI: 2 new Dramas or old MGM movies
Also TSCC had better ratings last year because FOX aired the 1st 4 episodes over a 2 night event and was done airing the show in about a month or so, also FOx advertised the heck out of it, it was anticipated by everybody that liked the movies, so it got plenty of eyes, also the 1st 9 episodes moved at adescent pace, with alot more action thn this year, in the 2nd part of season 2 why did they air 3 or 4 episodes in a row that had nothing to do w/ the overal ark and did nothing more than drive the audience away.
Also in Foxes defense, they aired this show w/ few repeats on the same night up untill a month ago.
Ta
hmmm… I used to like Buffy back in the day, and I really liked Firefly. But I’ve seen two episodes of Dollhouse and it’s as been dull as watching paint dry. The Whedon shows I’ve seen previously always had humour and witty dialogue, this has neither in my opinion.
Few things I wanted to mention real quickly.
- Nick C: You’ve lost any kind of “inside” credit from me personally after mentioning that OLD as DIRT rumor that has been found to be false.
- Ratings. I still don’t understand the logics of the columnists here. You criticize the small numbers that itunes, hulu, and amazon report, yet gloat with your > 1% statistical Nielsen data.
The Nielsen data has been LOCKED in since its “random” viewership decided what shows they were going to watch this season. People don’t switch shows midway + into the season, they tryout shows at the start and stick with them. The Nielsen data is objectifiable because there’s a HIGH probability that the majority of users haven’t EVEN SEEN ONE SEGMENT of T:SCC. If somehow these “random” people were forced to at least watch every show three times, the data might be able to better represent what people are watching because every show had got a fair chance to represent itself.
I understand the business model surrounding the numbers, and I’m not suggesting that the show will not be cancelled, but at the same time I’m willing to bet money that this show is doing better than Nielsen is capable of reporting.
@gossi: “Virgin’s penetration is next to nothing”
Hee.
This isn’t the show we fought for Veran. I’m sorry, but it’s just not. Friedman took the promise of Samson and Delilah and utterly wrecked it with Riley and John’s continuing stupidity. And what could he possibly have been thinking when he decided to treat Cameron so poorly this season? If he has a story to tell, why does the plot take months to move inches? Why did he waste so much screen time on useless, throwaway characters instead of focusing on what we cared about? Could he have alienated the viewers any more thoroughly if he tried? He didn’t know what he was doing and needs to go back to movies.
In light of the fact that he’s shown no sign of learning from his massive screw ups, I just can’t join you in asking for a season 3. Sorry.
Wow The Game did really well. I disagree with Robert that basketball gave the show an extra boost. If you look at the numbers for the last original episode of the Game you will see that the numbers are pretty similar. Also, the spike that takes place for The Game that took place at 8:30 when it went over 2 million would make no sense if it was a basketball game. The numbers would be more consistent, if not gradually getting better or worse. If the numbers for “The Game” continue to increase it can help its chances of getting renewed.
Statseter, Bill and I are not emotional about our analysis. We try to understand the way things work and then apply it. Nielsen numbers are extremely important in terms of TV advertising sales, and it is the primary data used for setting ad rates.
TV advertising sales is the predominant revenue generator. By comparison the revenue generated via iTunes, Hulu etc is still very small (and in many cases a complete rounding error). That’s just how it is right now. Online may play a bigger factor with revenue over time, and when it does, we’ll look at it differently.
As for Nielsen, no offense but after 18 months of this, it’s just an old and tired discussion. Nielsen *is* the data that affects TV advertising sales. TV advertising sales is how the networks make most of their money, so today, the Nielsen numbers are hugely important. That’s just the way it is.
@Eddie, we’ll know on Tuesday. I’m sticking w/B-Ball theory, but we’ll see. The last new episode of the Game was a while ago and it was ~1.8 million, and the last new episode of EHC did about ~1.4 million. I would chalk up 8:30p being higher than 8p to more people watching TV at 8:30p — something that seems to be consistent regardless of what is airing.
This week’s ep of “Dollhouse” was phenomenal, IMHO the best to date. I’m glad the ratings have improved, hopefully the DVR numbers show a similar increase. I’m really hopeful for this show.
If you’ve ever followed a Whedon show, you know he takes a few eps to get the ball rolling. I wasn’t a fan of Firefly until “Our Mrs. Reynolds”, which got me hook line and sinker. I didn’t become a raving fan of Angel until the 5th episode “Rm w/a Vu”, and Buffy’s first season was VERY hit and miss, with moments of genius like “The Puppet Show” and “Angel” getting interrupted by “The Pack”.
Joss has yet to let me down, and I’m really quite pleased with how Dollhouse has progressed. I can’t wait to see where they go with Echo’s continual gain of consciousness.
In short, call me a zealous fan, but I have reasons for my fan-girling: over ten years of watching the M.E. team deliver solid entertainment.
Statseter iTunes, Hulu etc. are dismissed as having any real effect on a shows future because as of right now they don’t. Whilst the networks may (or may not) see online viewing a potentially growing revenue stream right now the money that comes from airing on those sites isn’t enough to make a difference so the networks don’t take it into account especially not for shows doing as badly as TSCC is.
If TSCC were on the bubble then its success away from nielsens might mean something but even then its a long shot, especially given that DVD sales (a revenue stream away from nielsens that can make a difference) were so unnote worthy for season 1. But its worth remembering that success is measured in very different terms in online viewing, if you were to combine all of TSCC’s ’success’ on iTunes, Hulu and Amazon I doubt you’d get 30,000 extra viewers and that assumes that no one is repeating viewing on something like Hulu.
“People don’t switch shows midway + into the season, they tryout shows at the start and stick with them. The Nielsen data is objectifiable because there’s a HIGH probability that the majority of users haven’t EVEN SEEN ONE SEGMENT of T:SCC.”
Wow, you really don’t understand statistical random sampling, do you. These Nielsen viewers are supposed to stick to their normal viewing habits, they are supposed to behave like your average American TV viewer, who tries out shows at the start and then sticks with them. They are not the freaking Academy and they are not required to watch every show at least once.
As for the probability that a majority of them has never seen one segment of TSCC, if it is reasonably near the probability that your average American has never seen one segment of it, then A+ job, Nielsen Media Research.
At the risk of talking, without sarcasm, about something other than Dollhouse or TSCC on Friday nights:
1) Is this the best FNL has done in a while? Is it creeping up a tick or two? Here’s hoping the Ausiello gossip works out to be fact, and we get at least 26 more episodes of FNL
2) Flashpoint, while still tops in the timeslot, isn’t holding onto the “magic 2.0.” It’s not been faring well in the R/C Index. Is the low price tag enough justification for CBS to continue it on Fridays? Could they move it? Summer series only? Or will Flashpoint be gone by 2010? Interesting situation for CBS, indeed.
3) I wouldn’t say that 20/20 was not “interesting” last night. With John Stossel running the hour (nice occasional blips of fellow Libertarian-leaning personality Drew Carey IMHO), last night catered to a more specific crowd than a standard news magazine episode.
I wonder if everyone who watches SARAH CHRONICLES from this blog was a Neilson home and Neilson homes represent so many homes (is it 97,000 viewers?) and there looks to be a lot of us – then wouldn’t the CHRONICLES be much higher in ratings?
Neilson is flawed
I think Flashpoint is still on the CBS schedule during 2010, whether its where it is now or moved to the summer isn’t something I want to guess. I think it might be worth them trying something else on Friday’s at 9 but and maybe putting Flashpoint on Saturday’s or during the summer. As things stand though if Flashpoint is anywhere near as cheap as is reported then its a no lose situation for CBS to keep it around.
If you’re going to go around bashing it, at least get the spelling right. NIELSEN
Alex, I think there are probably many more than 30,000 who watch TSCC via Hulu (people like FREE!). How many, I can’t say. But even if it’s 500,000 and even if Hulu commercials are 2x as expensive, there are ~1/8th as many commercials so that would be roughly like adding 125,000 equivalent TV viewers from a revenue perspective. In that scenario, it’s not nothing, just nothing to get excited about.
statseter, really? It has been proven false? It was a legit script provided to me by the producer of the movie. It was months before shooting. Yes, they could have changed the ending. That doesn’t make the script I read “false,” it means it’s dated. If they didn’t change the ending they’re idiots. However I thought they were idiots. I lost total interest in the project from having read the script. The latest trailer btw, had all the same dialogue from that script. So if they changed anything it wasn’t enough. While the end was bad the rest wasn’t good either.
Robert, I’ve heard that it and DOLLHOUSE are basically making enough off HULU to pay for one episode of DOLLHOUSE and nearly 2 episodes of TSCC (because it has more episodes available). So it’s not nothing, but as you said it’s not anything to get excited about either.
if you’re saying Dollhouse is on a run rate to make $~2 million in revenue from Hulu that is in line w/my TSCC example of revenue/episode. They’d need ~$150K per Hulu episode to hit $2 million, only ~$115K if it is $1.5M/episode to produce.
I think TSCC is toast. I just can’t see a scenario where Fox would leap into it for season 2.
By the same ticket, I think “Dollhouse” is going to get a mini-nod. I can see Fox giving it the greenlight for a 13 ep second season, just like it received this year, or something similar.
Why? Because it’s numbers make it difficult to put up a full season starter, but Fox might be tempted to do split seasons of several shows; and this would be a fair choice. Plus, it would satisfy all of their development deal money with Dushku, and provide them dual sets of DVDs to issue out – something they know sell.
It’s often easier to cancel a show when it’s developed by another studio; while HIMYM on CBS isn’t going anywhere, the fact it’s being produced by Fox Studios means there is less fiscal interest on CBS’s part on plugging the bejesus out of it.
Fox owns Dollhouse lock, stock and barrel. It’s sales after it’s off the air all role back to the bottom line of Fox. Fox would love to see it as a property hang out long enough for them to get some continual flow of money. It’s also why sales via Itunes, Playstation Network, etc. all matter more then most, because it all goes back to the airing network.
Is Dollhouse safe? I don’t think so. I think it would take a consistent uptick for it to get a full season commit. But at this point, I think it has a very good possibility of getting a micro-commit (13 eps) etc.
Whilst I may have understated Hulu’s impact there’s a general overstatement of its impact that goes on. In January Hulu achieved 4.5 million unique visitors, which translated into 7.5 million unique views of all their videos combined. Those aren’t particularly impressive numbers especially when you take into account that as of January Hulu was streaming 232 million videos and the figures haven’t improved much from the more recent figures I’ve seen either.
Alex, while you’re right about HULU’s numbers they do have shows being viewed by a lot of people. HEROES gets around 500,000 viewers, and both DOLLHOUSE and TSCC are supposedly making around $125K an episode on HULU. No, it’s not great numbers, but it’s not abysmal either.
@Jonathan
You’re hilariously insane. I love it. Terminator is done. It’s just about as close to a “sure thing” as it possibly can be. There is no chance. Unless Fox execs take a liking to cocaine, which I doubt.
Just to add a note, I personally think Dollhouse has good potential. Just like TSCC, however, it all depends on where the show runner intends to take it over time.
In that respect, Joss Whedon has “street cred”. Josh Friedman has none whatsoever in the world of scripted TV shows – and even less after devastating the TV spinoff with the highest possibility of being a hit that anybody on Fox has ever seen.
I find Dollhouse to be engaging, reasonably smartly written, well directed, and with a plausible (well, as these things go) concept. I’m sure with some thought I can find some concept holes and holes in the episode plots, etc., just as I did with TSCC. But in general, after a mere five episodes, the show has been consistently entertaining, except for episode four, where I thought the whole “bodyguard who doesn’t know they’re a bodyguard” and a rock star who wears the same outfit most of the episode was a considerable bit of a stretch.
Clearly there is also an over-emphasis on half-baked babes in the show (hey, Hack, you say that as if it were a Bad Thing!). But then this Friday’s episode switched abruptly and made Echo a blind religious woman in hardly arousing garb.
In comparison to TSCC’s glacial pace, Dollhouse has moved its overall story arc right along in each episode. Joss Whedon has said, in contradiction to Josh Friedman’s remarks, that he sees nothing wrong with “firing everything right away” on the premise that the concept is sufficiently rich that “we can always reload.”
Friedman, on the other hand, emphasizing the “sadist” streak he displays in treating his characters, likes to dole things slowly – very slowly, claiming that if you put too many events in a series, the audience “devalues” events and it turns into a “soap opera”. How he figures any soap opera actually does things quickly is beyond me – soap operas are known for being watchable at annual intervals with no change in the story arc from last year! So how he figures a fast pace turns a show into a soap opera is a bit puzzling.
Despite Joss’s comments, I think we haven’t even begun to see what he has planned for Dollhouse so far. We’ve seen little to nothing of the “rogue Active” Alpha, for instance, just some back story from the other characters. New issues such as the Actives sexuality not being completely controlled are emerging in every episode.
As long as the plots stay reasonably inventive, I think the show will do well, provided enough viewers can be found who see the show for what it is – a sophisticated exploration of human personality disguised as a fantasy-action show.
Along with Fringe, the other show I like is Leverage, on TNT. While that show has more plot holes than TSCC will ever have, and glosses over more reality than even TSCC does, the characters are so engaging, the writing so clever, the cons so complicated, the episode pacing usually very fast, and the geek quotient so high that I have to ignore its excesses.
Plus Gina Bellman is hot, and I have a soft spot for Beth Reisgraf’s “Parker”.
This is my first post on this site. So please take it easy on me…Terminator was surprisingly good the first season. I actually enjoyed it and couldn’t wait for Season 2. A lot of action to off set the drama and backstory, which is what one should expect.
I don’t know what happened this year. I honestly quit watching after episode 11. The back story just was flat out boring, not well written. Definitely less action. After following the comments on here for a few weeks I decided to give it another shot. Granted the show is a little better, but will the numbers get it renewed No way. Look at Moonlight on CBS.
Every one says Fridays is where shows are put to die. I don’t know what happened but I remember when Fridays were the night to watch, anyone remember Dallas? I suspect the change was a result of cable programming.
Dollhouse. I just don’t know what to say. I had very high expectations, and was very disappointed. Hopefully Eliza’s comments about the shows quality getting better starting at episode 6 “after the network quit interfering” are true.If this is infact true, it is apparent to me that Joss and Fox should never work together. If you believe in the network messing with his shows which seems very possible. Firefly was canceled, but Joss took the movie version to Universal. If this is the case you would think Fox would just stay out of his way. Time will tell I guess……
nananananaaaaaaaaa nanananananaa……….. nanananananaaaaaaaaaaaa naaaaaaaa… nanananananaaaaaaaaaa nanananananaa…….. nanananananaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa naaaaaaaaaaaaa tan tan tan tan….. dollhouse recupera terreno!!!!!!!!!!!
I like TSCC and DOLLHOUSE
but both seem to be on the bubble as it were
can someone explain PLAINLY
why DVR recording dosent count towards the numbers and why it dosent help the shows?
What about online viewing like HULU?
Will Fox take that into account when thinking about renewing these shows?
should i be happy for the shows or not
im a lil confused
xxxgatorxxx, The root of the situation is that the nets haven’t figured out how to make money off of DVR and online viewing.
The way the networks make money is by selling ads. Advertisers primarily us the C3 ratings to decide prices, that includes all commercial viewing in the first three days (live and DVR). If DVR viewers aren’t watching the commercials, and most don’t, advertisers aren’t going to pay extra for them. Based on the C3 ratings we’ve seen here (Bill and Robert don’t get them often), the C3 numbers are roughly equal to the Live+SD numbers we get every day (usually less). For Dollhouse, the problem is lessened by the “Remote Free TV” experiment: with shorter commercial pods, fewer people skip over the ads. For TSCC, the problem is compounded by the fact that even with DVR viewing, the numbers are still horrible.
The nets do sell ads on legal online streaming (network websites, hulu, etc.), but so far they haven’t really made any money on it.
xxgatorxx, TSCC is NOT on the bubble. It’s gone. Just be glad they haven’t taken if off the air yet.
i was at my aunt’s house and she was watching ghost whisperer so i ended up seeing it for the first time but i could not believe how dumb it was
it has to be the worst show i’ve seen in like 5 years
Perhaps I’m confused, but it looks to me like the bump, such as it was, in Dollhouse’s numbers relative to last week come simply from the move of ABC’s 20/20 from 9 (opposite Dollhouse last week) to 10 (not opposite Dollhouse this week). Much weaker competition usually means an uptick.
20/20’s numbers were lower at 10 pm than at 9 pm because almost all shows are lower at 10 than at 9–that’s no surprise.
And relative to 2 weeks ago, every single 9 pm show is up in viewers by about the same amount as Dollhouse. Well, every show except SuperNanny, which was the one interrupted by 20/20. But Flashpoint and Friday Night Lights, both on at the same time as Dollhouse, also went up.
However, this is precisely why Share matters as well as Rating in the demo. If more people are watching television altogether, then it’s that “rising tide lifts all boats.” Only Share will tell you how you’re doing relative to your competition.
And in Share, it looks like Dollhouse was flat in the demo compared to 2 weeks ago. The only 9 pm gainer in share in the demo was CW with ANTM.
Maybe I’m missing it, but I’m not seeing any trend of any kind that would influence decisionmakers for either ads or the network. More viewers is always good, but flat against the competition is only good if you were out in front to begin with.
So 20/20 muscled in on 9 pm last week and pushed everybody else down. Went back to its home neighbourhood of 10 pm this week and overall viewers stayed up a bit (maybe a 20/20 halo effect) but everybody’s share went pretty much right back to where it was two weeks ago. Or am I confused?
Overnight numbers from two weeks ago are here:
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/02/28/friday-ratings-ghost-whisperer-dominates-tscc-and-dollhouse-continue-to-slide/13670#more-13670
While it’s true that 20/20 might have an influence on that, Dollhouse is now .3 behind Flashpoint in the demo, while it was .5 behind last week. .3 is a diff that they can probably fight away with C3 numbers (I don’t know, but Nick C probably has something to say about that), while .5 almost certainly is not. That means, this week Dollhouse has shot a leading the timeslot (and probably even going for 2nd place of the night), while last week it was never even close to that. That, for me, is kind of an uptick.
Now, if it can stay competitive for the weeks to come, is of course a different question. Next week, I don’t see it gaining in the demo. I see it at 1.4. The weeks after that will show us if there is an upwards trend.
Wisengrund,
Isn’t that .3 in the ratings and 1 in the share for the demo exactly where they were the week before the 20/20 move? So they already had those numbers once. And then if you skip over the 20/20 week, they stayed flat at that level.
I think the 20/20 week was an anomaly everyone, for every network, will recognise. But there’s no uptick trend relative to the week before the 20/20 special.
Is next week the Whedon-written episode? Or is that the week after? Whichever it is, I’d expect some minor uptick for that one, as it’s almost like a second premiere in terms of buzz.
For me, the real question is going to be what happens to the numbers the week AFTER the Whedon-written episode, when presumably both fans and critics will have a chance to talk it up if it really is a better show. I think the post-mythical-episode-trend is what any renewal decision will be based on. We’ll see.
“In that respect, Joss Whedon has “street cred”. Josh Friedman has none whatsoever in the world of scripted TV shows – and even less after devastating the TV spinoff with the highest possibility of being a hit that anybody on Fox has ever seen.”
Friedman has worked on a show other than TSCC? Because there’s no way you can mean TSCC when you say ‘the highest possibility of being a hit…’
Nick C: Until you actually state what it is you do that warrants you to be so close to “insider information”, anything you say will just be valued like everyone else posting on here; pure speculation.
Richard Steven Hack: No one reads your book-length garbage anymore. Save your time and stop typing. As soon as I see your name in the comments, I skip right over it.
Thanks for the answers Holly. Julia i havnt heard that i hope you are wrong
seems like networks give less and less time for a show to find its audence
sienfild xfiles even friends from what i understand did horrible in ratings until they found thier following
why do networks not give the shows a chance they paid for them to be made already…
xfiles being pertenent to this as it started as a friday night show with weak numbers and eventually became a juggernaut the network was throwing money at.
Why dont networks give the shows a chance-i mean they paid for em to be made right?
why not stick with them-did somthing change so they dont do it any more?or wore those flukes?
Statseter, your suggestion of forcing Nielsen members to watch every show on TV is plainly ridiculous. Normal viewers don’t do that so your idea would make the ratings less accurate than they really are…
Majarvis, I’ve said that about Nick C as well. He seems to have severe issues with the idea that he’s no more special than anyone else here and people will treat his posts with the same skepticism applied elsewhere.
Majarvis, I’m not going to “out,” myself. So keep dreaming. However, all my information supplied here has turned out accurate. So I’ll just go with that. People who care to research it realize I’m on the up and up.
Of course there has been a shake up at FOX, and Pete is notorious for pulling movies that didn’t meet his expected level of quality. So DOLLHOUSE if it really doesn’t get better is dead. He won’t put up with more of the crap they’ve aired (although some episodes weren’t crap).
Majarvis, also it’s hard to speculate that a show was “officially canceled,” hours before the media reported the shows were officially canceled. I’ve done that in the past on here (reported shows officially canceled and to be confirmed within hours). So that kind of speaks for itself.
No, it doesn’t make me more special than others. John just feels slighted by my existence. He has jealousy issues. I just post things on here that otherwise wouldn’t be knowledge available to others. It does not make me special. If I really thought the majority think I come here “to be special,” then I’d just quit posting. My information is solely for the fans to either lighten their worries or let them understand what is coming.
xxgatorxx, The whole “show X just needs time to find its audience” and references to XFiles does not apply to TSCC. Setting aside the reality that for every X-Files there are dozens more shows that failed to grow when given a similar chance, you can argue that a show with low but steady ratings could grow an audience if it were given more exposure. That is not the case for TSCC. It had lots of exposure and it had an audience. The problem isn’t that viewers never found TSCC, its that they found it and didn’t care enough to keep watching.
1. This notion that quantity is quality is, of course, utter screaming at the moon lunacy. By this logic Star Wars (utter juvenile mediocre crap, imo) is “better” than Citizen Kane or the mediocre Ghost Whisperer is superior to Dollhouse. They aren’t. This equation of quantity with quality is what you get in a culture where everything seems to be determined by the almighty dollar.
2. Battlestar Galactica is fortunate to be on a network that still knows what niche marketing is. The unfortunate thing about the nefarious merger of CBS and Warner (the CW) is the decline of niche marketing on network television and the triumph of the bigger is better mentality. Lest we forget BSG got horrible numbers when NBC ran the show in primetime.
3. Anyone know Dollhouse’s DVR and Hulu numbers?
4. Friday Night Lights and Dollhouse, ino, are two of the few really fine shows on US “free TV” (lol on the free).
Ronald, we post DVR Viewing numbers regularly. The Live+7 numbers aren’t real time (they lag by over 2 weeks) but you can find them, including info on Dollhouse, TSCC and Friday Night Lights under “DVR Viewing” in the top navigation.
thx for the reply holly
i disagree to some extent
there are more choice/channels
so the investment in time would needs to be a LONGER one
we are on six weeks and we are alredy saying dollhouse might be canceled
i mean 6 weeks isnt enough time? IS it?
and if u are talking TSCC the first season isnt enough time
considering the number of choices/channels now as there were in my previous examples of xfiles
look at firefly
ratings were dismal
enough that even on a friday night fox didnt show all the episodes it paid for..
canceliing it before all episodes were aired
howver it had enough of a following that a movie was made
and that broke and continues to break records
seriel shows have it harder than regular shows i read on another thread hereas the story continues and if the audience misses a few epoisodes they might lose key parts of the story
but wouldnt those shows NEED more time as an investment to find that audience?
i hate all my gd shows get canceled eventually and the fodder that is regular tv continues to thrive…
so basically if its not a bonifide hit out of the park,vested intrest by the studio that made it-or has a steady viewership it gets canceled..
look at numb3rs and NCIS
ncis was a major hit but a steady ride for years now its pulling decent numbers
do i have that all wrong?of course i do cant wait to hear why lol
You may have a point with Dollhouse, but 2 seasons (or one and a half, as the case may be) are more than enough to determine that TSCC is a ratings failure. How long do you expect networks to keep a show with nothing but the hope that someday it will finally catch on. At what point do they get to cut their losses and air something new?
What records did Serenity break? My understanding is that the box office response was rather mediocre.
I’m not sure what your point is with NCIS and Numb3rs, so I can’t really respond.
Serenity would not have been profitable without DVD sales. DVD sales made it a success, but box office alone did not.
Record-breaking success or made-some-profit success?
I would guess the latter. But I don’t know.
FYI: In some viewing areas, Flashpoint and Numb3rs were preempted by college basketball games.
If they do renew Dollhouse, they should pair it with Fringe on Wednesday Nights next Fall and then on Thursday Nights when Idol premieres.
yes dvd and dvr records
made profit
would have been worth keeping
you mention TSCC but it was moved from monday to friday
how do u keep an audnince or grow one whenthe show is moved?
To fridays no less where number of viewers will be smaller as ppl go out
even i DVR the show and i love it
and of course as u told me above they dont count my viewing lol
i know iknow im part of the problem lolz
above i ment
ncis hasnt been a success til recntly
doing steady/average in ratings
but it was kept and now is doing well
now its found an audince
also nowdays 13 episodes is what a studio orders=used to be up to 30
right?
i think what u are saying is that is enough time 13 weeks
and im saying i dont think it is especially for a seriel show
with all the choices viewers have these days-seems to me networks should be sticking with shows and banking on quality rather than quantity and let a show find an audince
back the horse they bet on so to speak
seems these days they shoot a shotgun and hope to hit the target
Kathie, really? What areas? I think people are confusing CW with CBS. CBS has CBS SPORTS which did not have basketball Friday Night. CW networks can sign with local affiliate sports networks to air games. MTN can as well. So can FOX stations. CBS stations though to my knowledge don’t have that option (and neither do ABC or NBC).
marty118,
Yes, next week is the Whedon-penned episode and yes, I totally agree that the ratings AFTER that episode will be the ones that will determine the fate of the show.
NCIS has grown recently, but it was never a failure. It always had high viewership and decent demos. CBS didn’t keep it for 5 years while it was failing hoping that it would finally become a success in the 6th year, they kept it because it was doing well.
You might have a point if TSCC had been a success on Monday only to see a huge drop when it moved, but it was moved to Friday because it was failing on Monday.
So, I guess I and five million other people was the only people watching John Stossel’s special on the stimulus package on 20/20?
Anybody with me?
“Kathie, really? What areas? I think people are confusing CW with CBS. CBS has CBS SPORTS which did not have basketball Friday Night.”
For what it’s worth, a cursory search will turn up such items as this: http://www.wtvr.com/Global/story.asp?S=7493990
‘Due to the ACC Basketball Tournament coverage on CBS 6 [WTVR], Friday’s (March 13, 2009) CBS 6 Primetime Programming including Ghost Whisperer, Flashpoint and Numbers will be available beginning Sunday, March 15, 2009 at 1:35AM.’
well by that
would xfiles been a hit now?
or sienfild?
Gator TSCC has been bleeding viewers *all* year – it isn’t The X-Files or Seinfeld and I’m pretty sure that if either of those shows had hit a 1.0 they would have been axed as well.
Fox would be insane to take the risk that a show that has dropped from 3.0+ to a 1.0 is going to build an audience because there’s absolutely nothing there to suggest that’s going to happen. And whilst critics haven’t buried the show it doesn’t even have the advantage that Seinfeld in particular had in that critics loved it and the word of mouth was excellent. There just isn’t word of mouth for Terminator there’s absolutely no reason to think its going to trend upwards.
Right now the only reason people aren’t proclaiming that Dollhouse isn’t dead is because it *might* trend upward with the rest of its run and that combined with good word of mouth for the improving episode quality could save it. As it is no one in their right mind thinks TSCC is going to turn itself around now. It just doesn’t happen. Shows don’t drop this low and rebuild their audience. Modest or on the bubble shows can do it but 1.0 shows don’t.
Nick C: Because of responses like that, I will continue to doubt you have any real connections to the industry and simply get luck in your guesses. You have a 50/50 chance of being right or wrong, and you’ve been lucky to be right more than 50 percent of the time. Just because you’ve predicted a show to be canceled hours before the official word is given is, again, just luck.
Serenity had a $39 million production budget (that’s without promotion costs) and made about $38 million worldwide in ticket sales. The hard to promote hard R Sin City in the same year had about the same production cost, and made more than 4 times as much money in ticket sales. Which is why Robert Rodriguez keeps getting financing to make movies and Whedon doesn’t. Serenity made less money in ticket sales than Aeon Flux and Elizabethtown. I suppose that’s “a record” of a sort, but not the sort that calls for sequels.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=serenity.htm
What Firefly did was sell a lot more DVDs than expected. That helped push the greenlight decision on the movie. Which didn’t sell many tickets, but did OK in DVD sales.
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117901954.html?categoryid=13&cs=1
But all that means is that a low-rated television show that did well on DVD turned into a film…that did OK on DVD. Not in theatres.
The Firefly/Serenity experience didn’t change anyone’s mind about what ratings mean in terms of long-term profits. I’ll be surprised if Dollhouse does, either.
Sure, everyone was hoping for a Star Trek story (the original movie, which wasn’t a critical success, made 3 times its production costs, and launched a franchise of 10 profitable films so far). But it didn’t happen.
Network execs are very aware of both the Star Trek story and the Firefly story, and the lessons to be learned from each. That’s why Moonlight isn’t still on the air.
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2007/11/18/moonlight-ratings-2007-2008/1820
ok i stand corrected
still dont think 1 3 wks is long enough to proclaim a hit or a miss
especiallly moving the night
my own opinion
thx for the linksbtw
hard to see the shows u like get canceled
guess someone is watching those..
Gator, are you still talking about TSCC? Because it will have had 22 episodes this season by the time it finishes its run. It’s already aired 18.
How would the upcoming movie generate a situation that makes TSCC look like a potential money maker? A possible scenario:
T4 happens to be a smash hit with extended strong box office. Public appetite turns out to be consistently strong enough that T1-T3 are re-released with additional Whatevers, maybe there’s merchandising, and then all that’s over and the fans still want more. Where do they get more? By watching TSCC, because everything else is stuff they’ve already recently seen. It’s why people buy “Star Trek” paperbacks and read/write fan fic.
Anything short of this, and the movie’s performance (not release) has precisely zero impact on the fate of the TV show.
Two things make people lose objectivity about any particular show/movie/play they either like or don’t like. The first is confusing a show that suits their personal taste with a well-done production. The second is forgetting that no matter how well-done it is, or how much you like it, this is show ***business*** we’re talking about here.
Barring subsidies and other feats of accounting, at present TV shows survive or don’t because of the ratings for live viewing. If the advance publicity for the movie gets people to sit down and watch while the show airs live, then the movie’s release (not performance) will help.
Time alone will tell.
lolz
i suppose i am
no the convo evolved a little into
me not thinking 13 weeks is long enough to let a show find its audience
and that networks arent taking the time to find a gem these days
i realize=now-that i guess TSCC has had long enough
as you said i should be happy if they air ALL the episodes
but dollhouse isnt doing great and its on the bubble according to others
and its only 6 weeks in
i do appreciate the responses
especially by holly
i feel i have a better understanding about whats goin on
with decisions networks make on shows
not that i agree
again thx for listening and commenting on my crazy rantings
i guess im secretly hoping my shows will be one of those brerakout ones marty was talking about
Gator I think you’re mistaken to a degree at least.
If Dollhouse gets renewed it will be bacause Fox sees potential in its future in terms of growing its audience. Short of a miracle its hard to see it getting the kind of numbers that make it an obvious and instant choice for a second season. I would also say that I think that the networks get an unfair wrap when it comes to pulling shows too early.
Nick C. your posts have moved from funny to hilarious. I can’t imagine what anyone would be jealous of but it’s comments like that which prove my point that you want to feel special or superior. If that makes you feel good, by all means keep it up but don’t think everyone sees your comments as fried gold. You’ve never really posted anything that was a real scoop or that wasn’t already being discussed elsewhere. Most of it is just rumor and spin.
John T Folden, yawn. Keep trying. I suggest actually finding something I was wrong about. Wait, you can’t. So there for all you can do is sit around and act like a jealous child. That’s ok.
Once again, Nick C, just exactly what is it about you that anyone is supposed to be jealous of? LOL You just keep proving my points over and over…
Ok, let me put it to some of you naysayers… It’s not the Writing team of TSCC or the episodes, that are causing it’s downfall.
Let’s see, the show was even popular in the beginning of the season 2. Then breaks + constant schedule problems, caused it to bleed viewers… It wasn’t TSCC making a bad show, it was bad advertisement, bad scheduling, and bad timing too. It performed well for a while, and then once it moved to Friday, it started really dying, and that’s expected.
Viewers 000 Live+SD
6328 Sep 8-14 (Premiere 5th place)
5564 Sep 15-21 (8th)
5887 Sep 22-28 (9th)
5374 Sep 29-Oct5 (10th; I dunno midterms?)
6365 Oct 6-12 (7th; MLB NLCS games)
– break?? 2 weeks –
5024 Oct 20-26 (15th, blame the break)
– another 1 week break?? –
5168 Nov 3-9 (13th)
5153 Nov 10-16 (15th)
5094 Nov 17-23 (elections)
4571 Nov 24-30 (Thanksgiving)
5823 Dec 1-7
5250 Dec 8-14 (winter break exams)
5070 Dec 15-21 (winter break begins)
– season 2 continues later, 2 month break
– season 2 continues on Fridays 8 PM, few heard about it
3711 Feb 9-15 (show returns)
3862 Feb 16-22
3377 Feb 23-Mar 1
2897 Mar 2-8 (spring break, watchmen premiere, since its friday)
3500 Mar 13 (some colleges go on spring break, some return from)
As you can see, it kept a fairly good ~5.2-6.3 million viewers, until it was moved. 2-3 breaks caused it to drop ranking a lot. Then the move to Friday, dropped it another million+. If it builds up to lets say 4.5 million, or 5 million by season finale, I think it will bring on season 3…
Agree disagree??
Jonathon, few heard about the move to Friday? You’re insane! It was a marketing BLITZ. The same week it aired first on Friday, it had a commercial in EVERY OTHER COMMERCIAL BREAK FOR ALL FOX SHOWS. That means millions saw it on Sunday, millions more on Monday, and 20M+ viewers on Tuesday during AMERICAN IDOL.
It was heavily marketed. Anyone who tries to say the show wasn’t marketed is blind, deaf, and honestly ignorant.
The show failed due to the fans leaving the show. Blame it on the move to Friday if you want. I’ve heard too many people who watched the show claim it just went into the toilet in quality. It’s funny how that mirrors the bleeding of viewers. HEROES is the same thing. People say the quality has dropped, and wow what a surprise so have the viewing numbers.
The DVD set didn’t sell well. It didn’t sell bad, but it didn’t sell well. There is nothing to point to TSCC doing anything but digging its own grave.
Accept it. Move on. Enjoy the last 4 episodes.
I would just like to take this opportunity to note that the numbers for Jericho reruns have been royally screwed by the CW’s jacking them back and forth between 7:00 and 6:30 on Sundays, those miserable swine.
Alex, my point with the comment on Josh Friedman’s “street cred” above was to say that he hasn’t done any scripted series TV shows except TSCC – and TSCC had the POTENTIAL to be a hit – but he utterly failed to make it one.
TSCC could have been a huge hit if it had more or less followed the Terminator movie “formula”. Naturally, there would have had to be some obvious changes since there’s no way it could have had the huge special effects. But then T-1 didn’t have that many huge effects when it came out – T-2 was the one that spent money. For it’s budget, TSCC had good special effects – they just didn’t destroy ten or fifteen cop cars at once like T-2 did.
If TSCC had spent most of its time on the core “functions” of the Terminator concept – i.e., dodging killer robots and stopping Skynet, plus added in the exploration of the relationship between John Connor and the “good Terminator” like T-2 and T-3 did, and did so with sufficient action each week, along with good acting, clever writing, good direction, i.e., the “basics”, it could have done well.
Instead, Friedman turned it into a “family drama” focused on conflicts between Sarah and John Connor, plus an extended collapse into paranoid insanity on the part of Sarah Connor. The latter was even inconsistent – one week she’s hallucinating, the next she’s fine, followed by another bout of insanity. It made no sense and nobody cared except the hardcore Sarah fans who shared Friedman’s obsession with the character.
James Cameron put Sarah Connor in a mental hospital for PART of his film – not the WHOLE film. And once she was out, she didn’t keep tripping out.
The most liked character on the show, Cameron, the “good Terminator”, was provided with a glitch in episode one that made her fundamentally defective, then sidelined for most of the season in favor of Sarah (except for two excellent episodes that explored the character’s background and interaction with humans). Now the glitch has been declared “permanent”, which makes her almost useless unless it’s somehow “repaired” in the next four episodes.
Anybody familiar with the Terminator franchise can’t see anything of Terminator in this mess. Anybody just vaguely familiar with Terminator watching the show for the first time can’t understand it at all. So a lot of Terminator fans came, saw and left, while the wider audience never watched more than one episode.
This leaves only the hardcore Sarah Connor fans who see absolutely nothing wrong in what Friedman did, despite the fact that the end result is going to be cancellation.
Again, the show is most respects was perfectly fine – i.e., the “basics”, again. It was the overall story arc and the pacing that did it in.
And that’s quite fixable – IF Friedman would admit that and do it. But now it’s too late to start that in the last five episodes.
“If it builds up to lets say 4.5 million, or 5 million by season finale, I think it will bring on season 3…”
I don’t see how that would be possible. TSCC could break 4.5 million for the series finale, but that’s too late. If all the episodes on Fridays averaged 4.5 million then it’d could be back. Getting stomped on by “Howie Do It” every week will not renew a scripted program.
Out of curiosity, what were the DVR numbers like on Monday? On Fridays it bumps them up by 35% (so far).
Chad, you can look back at past DVR viewing using the link in the white nav bar at the top of the page.
The problem with blaming TSCC’s drop on scheduling issues is that pretty much every show has scheduling problems vs sports and specials at some point or another.
And blaming the drop on midterms? Please…
None of which matters anyway. The point of the producer of a show is that he is supposed to keep ratings up NO MATTER WHAT IS GOING ON – outside of thermonuclear war or a Presidential assassination or 9/11. In other words, the show is supposed to attract viewers regardless of the competition or external events.
Again, the point of Fox putting it on Mondays was that it was the only show that could have had a chance of surviving there IF the show had lived up to the Terminator franchise reputation.
It didn’t. It’s that simple.
Episode one of season 2 was the sort of episode EVERY episode (or every two episodes, at least) should have been. If Josh had done that, he’d have kept his 6 million viewers, and it would be renewed.
The long, drawn-out, completely nonsensical “three dots” and ‘Blood Wall” sub-plots were what really killed the show. To some degree, that was partly Fox’s fault, since they mandated more “stand-alone” episodes. But you can do stand-alones and move along the overall story arc. Fringe does. Leverage does. Dollhouse does. Josh didn’t. He saved all that until the last four or five episodes of the entire season.
And even that may prove to be bad news. The whole Jesse “submarine” story – a TWO-PARTER no less! – may prove to be another waste of time exploring a character who the fans want to see killed sooner rather than later, just like the whole Riley subplot was a massive waste of time just to set up Cameron, the show’s most liked character, to be messed with at season’s end.
You have made some good points… But I think there has been plenty of action, plenty of terminator action, plenty of shooting at terminators, plenty of suspense and mystery. You’re right, a few episodes, there were some messing up, but that was still producing a consistent 5-6 million viewers. Only until this 1-2 break periods where no episodes aired, did 6 drop to 5 million. Only until Friday move, did they drop to 3.7 million, and only until Watchmen premiere, and spring break, did it drop down to 3 million.
It’s hard to keep a serialized storyline show, when the plot continues. No one can tune in half-way into season 2, and understand much of what’s going on, but that’s not the writing team, it’s the writing style they chose to tell the story.
24 on the other hand, has such a plot that keeps progressing, but they have action 90% of the time. TSCC has a story, but that’s the main point to the whole show, it’s not a terminator of the week show, and people even complained about that, until JF responded, and now they complain there’s not enough actions. It’s impossible to satisfy everyone I guess…
@Richard: Okay, so after getting hammered at the pub last night and then screwing my head back on this morning and reading your comments (whilst looking back on the entire second season), I find your points to be quite true. Season 2 was advertised as a bigger, better, more intense version of the first season. With the exception of a few episodes (Samson & Delilah, Allison From Palmdale, Goodbye To All That, The Tower Is Tall, Mr. Ferguson, Complications, Self Made Man, and Ourselves Alone) this season has not been what they promised.
On the other hand, your violent hate for Josh Friedman taints your objectivity.
The truth is that, as good as this season has been (and hopefully will be), it still wasn’t what we hoped for. And like you said; people on the wiki have trouble accepting that something is wrong with the entire season. I had trouble accepting it, but looking back I felt something “shift” with Automatic For The People. Something didn’t feel right about the show from there on, and that feeling only got worse with time.
I like to watch the season over and over, I’m that kind of obsessive person, but when I get to an episode like “Strange Things Happen At The One-Two Point” I find myself far from motivated. But do not mistake me; this season and its episodes have been good and well worth watching and repeating, but it just wasn’t what we were promised.
Now, I stand by my conviction that if FOX decides for some miraculous reason to renew TSCC for a third season, we’ll see an entirely new and far better show than we’ve seen before. You say Josh is an idiot. I say rewatch the first season and Samson & Delilah, then tell me he’s an idiot. Maybe he needs someone on his shoulder to help him with certain creative decisions, maybe not. I don’t want to slag the guy off because he is fully capable of making this show a phenomenon, and has proven that with past episodes.
I just think maybe he needs a little guidance, but cutting him out of this show would be a bad idea. Very bad idea. Maybe he can step down and take an advisory and writing capacity, as opposed to a position where he makes all the big decisions. Either way, I think this show should (and hopefully will) be retooled in the third season and brought back to the core themes of the films. It needs to be given a (forgive the pun) “reboot”.
So say what you will about Friedman, because it won’t subtract from the fact that this guy has the talent to bring us what we want from the show.
@Nick C: I have a hypothetical question for you.
I know TSCC will very likely have to find another network after Season 2, and I still believe it will (be it Sci-Fi or CW or wherever). But I still can’t help but wonder…
…if FOX were, to everyone’s surprise, greenlight a third season (despite the ratings); why would they do this and what would be the terms/requirements/conditions of this renewal? Would it be possible that FOX will greenlight a third season but bench it until January 2010, hoping that some distance from its earlier failures will give it a chance to bounce back?
Just humour me here, don’t throw some crappy “it won’t happen, so there” retort.
Serenity did more then ok on DVD , heck there are like 4 different versions of that movie available..even Blu-ray. The movie is a nice money maker now…sure it did bomb in the movie theaters but I would imagine there are 100 times as many fans of Firefly since that movie came out then before hand. Dollhouse is subpar so far though , I can’t disagree with most peoples opinions on it. TSCC is ok , it could have been real good with some more creative writers on board.
I don’t hate Josh Friedman, I just think he doesn’t get what Terminator is supposed to be. Either that, or he simply went overboard on his personal obsession with the Sarah Connor character.
I can’t psychoanalyze the guy (like everyone wants to do with me over the Net). I just have to go by what ended up on the screen.
Jonathan, the “Terminator of the Week” problem was not a problem of too much action. That was exactly what Josh said at WonderCon and he’s totally wrong. The problem was that it WAS “Terminator of the Week”, i.e, they were stand alone episodes that did nothing to move the story forward. It’s not an either/or situation. As I pointed out, Fringe has action just about every week and STILL manages to move the overall arc forward, and STILL manages to tell a story which is mostly stand-alone in the main plot.
TSCC did manage to slip in a little moving of the overall story arc in most episodes, so I’m not too dogmatic about that. But the pacing still wasn’t fast enough. Many episodes really did nothing.
The main criticism I had for MANY episodes was the utter inconsistency of the Connors making the search for “The Turk” a top priority in season one, and then IGNORING the entire problem for every episode after episode one. The whole “3 dots” thing simply derailed that. Sarah went chasing after nothing at all, while at least three direct methods to find Weaver and “The Turk” existed: 1) followup on the nuclear plant incident, 2) follow up on Dr. Sherman, and 3) follow Ellison around. Any of those would have been a logical thing for the Connors to do – if the writers weren’t trying to tell stand alone episodes mandated by Fox.
If Thomas Dekker said the whole “Blood Wall” concept irritated the writers themselves. But it’s clear that Josh was behind that because that was the way he managed to push his “Crazy Sarah” obsession. So we can’t blame Fox for how the stand alone edict was HANDLED.
Josh has repeatedly said that he doesn’t believe in moving the story along quickly. That was his fundamental mistake – along with his “Crazy Sarah” obsession.
Again, I believe most of the episodes were fine, more or less, in terms of acting, directing, writing (except where the writers simply ignored reality or dropped matters that should have been dealt with), effects, etc. The problem was entirely that the overall story arc went no where any hardcore Terminator fan wanted to go and where it did go it went at the pace of a glacier.
You just can’t do that with what is supposed to be a sci-fi action adventure show.
The only episodes that really worked were “S&D”, “Mr. Ferguson”, and “Allison”.
“Allison” was useful because of the Cameron background mostly, but the same information could have been conveyed in ten minutes. It was great solely because of Summer Glau’s Emmy-quality acting.
While the other episodes you cite weren’t AWFUL, they did nothing to move the story along. They also did little to explore the characters, except to make Sarah ever more unlikable, and did nothing for character development. A latter exception would be “Goodbye” where we did see a smattering of smarts and maturity from John Connor.
Even “Self-Made Man” wasn’t all that significant, except in terms of the character exploration of Cameron. But even that wasn’t all to the good, since it re-emphasized Josh’s obsession with abusing the character by making her seem “suicidal” which in my view made no sense at all. The entire Stark subplot has since been dropped. It was basically another “Blood Wall” stand alone (Stark’s name was on the “Blood Wall”), so it did nothing to move the story along. Again, it’s only value was in the well-acted performances of Summer and the fellow who played Eric.
Veran: I can’t understand why a network would greenlight a third season, then bench it for another six months. Other people are complaining that a couple weeks off dropped the ratings. And I have to believe the two month hiatus really didn’t help. How is six or nine months going to help?
The show is what it is. While we can give Friedman credit for doing a pretty good job in season one, we really don’t know how much of the decisions made were all his, how many also involved John Wirth and James Middleton, how many involved pressure from Fox execs, how much oversight of the writers led to missed chances, and what he originally intended to do with the series.
I have to go by what he said – that he had a plan for season two and he executed it. So I have to assume that most of the problems were the result of his plan. Specifically, that the direction most of the episodes took, the vastly overdone “Crazy Sarah” character development, the poor pacing, etc. are all on him.
In any event, he’s the show runner. The buck stops there.
He doesn’t have to be fired. He can simply say “mea culpa, we’ll do it differently next season” – and say HOW in a manner we – and the Fox execs – can believe in.
But again, as of two weeks ago at WonderCon, he wasn’t having any of that.
I have a stupid question: how do you calculate total numbers in your scoreboard. Do you (or whoever calculates these numbers) add total viever numbers per hour and and divide by two (for fox)? If this is so than your numbers do not match. Check this:
Terminator SSC 3.5
Dollhouse 4.3
Total 7.8
Av: 7.8/2= 3.9
your number in scoreboard above: 4.13
so either your av. number is wrong or the numbers for TSSC or Dollhouse (or both). Assuming your average and Dollhouse number is true than TSSC should have something 3.96.
Could you check these…
“I can’t understand why a network would greenlight a third season, then bench it for another six months. Other people are complaining that a couple weeks off dropped the ratings. And I have to believe the two month hiatus really didn’t help. How is six or nine months going to help?”
I don’t understand it either, but if FOX wants to keep the show close at hand but don’t want to immediately commit to another season, then why not wait until the January 2010 line-up?
In regards to how the wait would affect the audience and ratings; I assume it would allow the show to come back with a fresh start, putting all the failings of Season 2 in the past and allowing the show to start without that bad press dragging people’s expectations of it down. If the show can be presented in a different light, a better light, one that will appeal to a wider audience who want to see more of the original movie elements, then it should succeed where this season has failed.
Of course, I have no idea if this is a likely scenario. I’m sure Nick C will have something to say on the matter. Also, nobody besides those who actually work in the writer’s room or whatever can say that the blame belongs to one person alone. Neither your or me have any idea what happened behind those closed doors, or what pressures FOX may or may not have placed on Friedman that may or may not have narrowed his narrative options. Nobody knows, least of all you.
Hagi, you are right. I presume the number up there currently is from the first set of numbers Robert saw from Berman. Those were something like 3.9 for TSCC and 4.4 for Dollhouse, which averages to 4.15, so I guess no one updated it since then.
hagi, I think it was because he took the average from Marc Berman, who had 3.9 million viewers for TSCC, and the shows from James Hibberd, who had the 3.5 million. TVGuide agrees with Hibberd.
ok thanks.
How different sources can give different numbers if all numbers come from same company (nielsen)? maybe someone made a mistake.. anyway..
i have another stupid question. Isn’t it better if we have two (or more) independent companies measuring tv ratings…
Hagi, it probably would be better just to keep people from going on about how Nielsen isn’t fair and their favorite show which is about to be canceled is really the biggest show on TV, but no one is willing to pay for two sets of numbers. Therefore no one will do it.
Veran, Friedman has admitted that he wanted to focus on Sarah’s psychology, even though some people at Fox thought that was a bad idea. So,yeah,Friedman does deserve most of the blame.
Micheal, FOX also thought it was a good idea to bring in Riley five episodes earlier than originally planned. Was that a good idea? No.
They also told the writers to produce more stand-alone episodes. A good idea? No.
So to be honest, what motivation did Friedman have for listening to them this time?
Veran, actually those are not bad ideas themselves – HOW they were implemented is another matter entirely.
John, TSCC is a serialized show. Stand-alones are antithetical to a show like this. Stand-alones don’t do us any favours. This isn’t Bones.
Nick C,
You said: “The DVD set didn’t sell well. It didn’t sell bad, but it didn’t sell well. There is nothing to point to TSCC doing anything but digging its own grave.”
How many sets did it actually sell?
Anyone have the final numbers for Friday, 3/13/09?
“Episode one of season 2 was the sort of episode EVERY episode (or every two episodes, at least) should have been. If Josh had done that, he’d have kept his 6 million viewers, and it would be renewed.”
I have a theory that people tune in to watch week two because of what they saw in week one. Yet here, Ep. 2 was down about 500,000 viewers from Ep. 1, so the first episode of the season must not have been what those viewers were looking for.
But clearly, the thing that has hurt the live viewing numbers more than anything was the move to Friday night. I’d be interested in knowing if the numbers for the various online methods of viewing went up about the same time. Just curious.
Dianne, I tend to agree about people watching a second week what they watched last week.
TSCC’s season two first episode was pretty depressing for a new viewer, even if exciting for those who saw season one. That might have turned off some viewers.
And since it was a premiere, I think what happened is that people who hadn’t seen season one tuned in, didn’t know what was going on, and thus had no reason to watch episode two.
So I wouldn’t take that particular drop as indicative of anything in general. The problem with the show is the bleeding of viewers and the increase in critical comments even among more or less fans.
As for the Friday move, the problem again is that it was expected to lose numbers by that move, but then it kept bleeding numbers because the first four episodes of the back nine were extremely slow and did nothing to move the story along. So even more people who were not hardcore fans abandoned ship.
Everybody, even the hardcore fans, pretty much admit now that it was a bad mistake for Josh to continue the “Crazy Sarah” stuff after a two month hiatus. What they’re doing in the current episodes they should have done immediately on return from the hiatus. In fact, we were promised the back nine would be better – and the first four simply weren’t.
Worse, I think this whole “submarine” two parter will prove to be a mistake. While there is talk on the official writer’s blog about how submarine movies are always “cool”, this again reveals the detachment of the writers from the real world of “Terminator”. “Cool” isn’t important. We need story arc movement.
Had the submarine story been told a half dozen episodes ago, maybe after it was revealed why Jesse was here at all, that might have made some sense. Now it just wastes more screen time on back story when people want the current story moved along.
Not to mention that nobody really cares WHY Jesse is doing what she’s doing. She’s not a character that needs “development” – she’s a character that needs killing off. They need Derek to put a bullet in her and get on with it.
Good to see G W at the top…great show but cant seam to find a listing for it.
I’m frustrated with lack of viewing of Dollhouse. Its a good show that not getting enough ratings and they might cancel the show. Which make it hard to keep watching if you afraid the show will get cancel. When you think of this show think about Firefly. A good show that got cancel cause of lack of ratings. On a another note, it hard to keep watching your favorite shows when they get bounce around like ping balls that upset the rating and my viewing. I’m tv nut and proud of it. These stations need to get there act together. Cause one day instead of picking up a remote. People are going to start picking up a book. Least then they don’t have to worry about the book geeting cancel.