| Scoreboard |  |
 |
 |
 |
 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rating/Share: Adults 18-49 | 1.6/6 | 1.6/5 | 1.3/5 | 1.2/4 | 0.7/2 |
| Total Viewers (million) | 7.81 | 5.28 | 3.42 | 4.02 | 1.60 |
CBS won the night despite two out of its three shows being repeats. The results for Dollhouse should finally end any discussion of the show’s renewal prospects, unless DirecTV plans to save it in the same fashion it saved Friday Night Lights and there are at least a couple of reasons why that doesn’t seem likely for Dollhouse (it doesn’t have the 40+ 37 episodes under its belt with critical acclaim that FNL had before the first deal and it doesn’t match DirecTV’s “football exclusives” pattern).
Otherwise Dollhouse is done on FOX after it finishes its run. But this being the Internet I’ll have to endure hearing about how wrong I am probably at least until the upfront announcements of next year’s schedule in late May.
You can compare with previous Friday overnight reports.
Full details:
| Time | Net | Show | 18-49 Rating/Share | Viewers (Millons) |
| 8:00 | CBS | Ghost Whisperer (R) | 1.6/6 | 7.30 |
| ABC | Wife Swap | 1.5/6 | 4.62 | |
| FOX | Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles | 1.3/5 | 3.35 | |
| NBC | Howie Do It | 1.1/4 | 3.56 | |
| CW | Everybody Hates Chris | 0.6/2 | 1.79 | |
| 8:30 | CW | The Game | 0.8/3 | 1.86 |
| 9:00 | CBS | Flashpoint | 1.8/6 | 8.64 |
| ABC | Supernanny (R) | 1.4/5 | 4.55 | |
| FOX | Dollhouse | 1.4/5 | 3.49 | |
| NBC | Friday Night Lights | 1.2/4 | 3.61 | |
| CW | America’s Next Top Model (R) | 0.6/2 | 1.37 | |
| 10:00 | ABC | 20/20 | 1.8/6 | 6.67 |
| CBS | Numb3rs (R) | 1.6/5 | 7.50 | |
| NBC | Dateline | 1.4/5 | 4.89 |
Shows are sorted by 18-49 rating in each time slot.
Nielsen TV Ratings: ©2009 The Nielsen Company. All Rights Reserved. Source Marc Berman/Mediaweek.
Definitions:
Fast Affiliate Ratings: These first national ratings, including demographics, are available at approximately 11 AM (ET) the day after telecast, and are released to subscribing customers daily. These data, from the National People Meter sample, are strictly time-period information, based on the normal broadcast network feed, and include all programming on the affiliated stations, sometimes including network programming, sometimes not. The figures may include stations that did not air the entire network feed, as well as local news breaks or cutaways for local coverage or other programming. Fast Affiliate ratings are not as useful for live programs and are likely to differ significantly from the final results, because the data reflect normal broadcast feed patterns. For example, with a World Series game, Fast Affiliate Ratings would include whatever aired from 8-11PM on affiliates in the Pacific Time Zone, following the live football game, but not game coverage that begins at 5PM PT. The same would be true of Presidential debates as well as live award shows and breaking news reports.
Rating: Estimated percentage of the universe of TV households (or other specified group) tuned to a program in the average minute. Ratings are expressed as a percent.
Share (of Audience): The percent of households (or persons) using television who are tuned to a specific program, station or network in a specific area at a specific time. (See also, Rating, which represents tuning or viewing as a percent of the entire population being measured.)
Time Shifted Viewing – Program ratings for national sources are produced in three streams of data – Live, Live+Same Day (Live+SD) and Live+7 Day. Time shifted figures account for incremental viewing that takes place with DVRs which are currently in approximately 24.4% of all U.S. TV households. Live+Same Day (Live+SD) include viewing during the same broadcast day as the original telecast, with a cut-off of 3:00AM local time when meters transmit daily viewing to Nielsen for processing. Live+7 Day ratings include incremental viewing that takes place during the 7 days following a telecast.
For more information see Numbers 101.
first!…..UGH I LOVE DOLLHOUSE but come on guys we GOTTA admit its done
wow tscc and dollhouse are definately done
Ugh! Maybe its good enough for a friday night. With DVR, its up to 4 -5 million.
And SCC is season finale next week? How? Its not geting canned? If its not than DH wont either….?
What? TSCC went down again? Last nights ep was so good. these numbers must be wrong.
Yeah, about the only thing Dollhouse fans can say this week is that it beat FNL in the demos.
Ok, tell me if I’m wrong…but arent those Dollhouse numbers GOOD? Look at all the friday nights shows… its all in the 1’s for 18-49 category. Its not just dollhouse thats on the bubble?
I look forward to saying haha to tvbythenumbers when sarah connor chronicles gets renewed. Dollhouse is bad.
i’m a die hard terminator fan, and even i’ll admit that its done.
but since it does well internationally and on DVD sales, i wouldn’t be surprised if warner bros produces a DVD movie to wrap the series all up and can be broken up into two additional episodes for syndication purposes. at least that’s what i hope…
“Ok, tell me if I’m wrong…but arent those Dollhouse numbers GOOD? Look at all the friday nights shows… its all in the 1’s for 18-49 category. Its not just dollhouse thats on the bubble?”
The numbers are bad for starting above a 2.0 demo (2.1 I think). The show has just completley collapsed. ABC is reality which is cheap, so the 1.5-1.8 is acceptable. CBS was mostly repeats. NBC is just a failure as is the CW.
Fox should air WWE Smackdown on Friday instead My Network, WWE Smackdown could bring in strong rating for FOX.
Anan, you’re wrong.
Everything else last night was either in repeats or much cheaper than Dollhouse or TSCC, either because it’s reality or the price is shared (Flashpoint and Friday Night Lights.) So while everything else can survive (even though not all of them necessarily will) with these numbers, Dollhouse and TSCC cannot.
Not good for Dollhouse, not at all.
At least move it to a new freaking time slot and give it a CHANCE. Damn.
The only upside of these awful numbers is Dollhouse is going down 2. Worst Show ever!!
Robert, you’re not even bothering anymore to try to convince people that TSCC is done.
I’m still wondering why the “World Series” example refers to “the live football game.”
But Dollhouse was a 1.3/4 in the demo last week. This week it’s a 1.4/5 in the demo. Thats UP! See? It’s trending UP now! As long as it ticks up about 0.1/1 each week…or every two weeks…or twice more at some point to pull it to 1.6/7 or so in the demo, Dollhouse will be fine.
“Fox should air WWE Smackdown on Friday instead My Network, WWE Smackdown could bring in strong rating for FOX.”
FOX can’t just air WWE Smackdown because its on its sister network MyNetworkTV. Although, it is possible that MNTV could come in third place for the night if Smackdown had a strong rating! (Third in demo, fourth in viewers)
“But Dollhouse was a 1.3/4 in the demo last week. This week it’s a 1.4/5 in the demo. Thats UP! See? It’s trending UP now! As long as it ticks up about 0.1/1 each week”
In finals last week it went up to a 1.4, so its even.
But RJ, the finals for this week are not posted here. The finals might tick up just as the early overnights did
“But RJ, the finals for this week are not posted here. The finals might tick up just as the early overnights did.”
Let’s take a look at this. Dollhouse fans blamed the NCAA for low ratings last week (which had over a 3.0 demo). If its even this week, whats the excuse? Power outage? New movie? GIVE ME A BREAK!
I think Dollhouse was good yesterday. I would rather Fox cancel Lie to Me and keep Dollhouse.
mmm
“it doesn’t have 40+ episodes under its belt with critical acclaim”
FNL didn’t have 40+ episodes under its belt when the Direct TV deal was made. It was 37 or, more likely, less.
Moving the time slot for Dollhouse wont help. People just dont like it. TSCC is dead too, despite the advertising that says its just a “Season Finale”. TSCC might get some kind of TV movie type thing to tie up the loose ends since it supposedly ends on a cliffhanger. SCI-FI could do it cheaply – watch any SCI-FI produced movie to get an idea of what that might be like.
Is it just me or did all shows got lower numbers last night? FNL was very low and that’s a shame cause last nights episode was absolutely marvelous with the state finals ……. anywayz who cares now ….. DirecTV has already saved the day
….. Life is soo good after that news ……. Doll House is a lame and boring show ….. It’s good to see it’s having lower ratings …….. i hope there comes a decision for fox when the have to choose either DH or TSCC and they choose TSCC cause that’s much better than this doll house crap …….
ps. I’m surprised there is no ranting about chuck today cause it seems to be in discussion everyday
“I would rather Fox cancel Lie to Me and keep Dollhouse.”
Dollhouse is gone either way. Lie to Me is on the bubble.
Good catch Mike, I didn’t factor in the strike-shortened season. I’ll fix it.
Mike, it was 37, but 37 is a hell of a lot closer to 40+ than 13.
Well there were some new movies last night – Fast and Furious for one. BTW, RJ, I have never watched Dollhouse. I’m just making ridiculous predictions bases on one blip in the numbers, in order to support the fantasies such as “Dollhouse will be fine because Joss Whedon created it,” “Dollhouse will be fine because FOX won’t make another Firefly mistake,” yadda yadda yadda.
Ouch. What has happened with Whedon’s “vision”? As for TSCC, can we start a “Stop Josh Friedman” movement, like the one with Uwe Boll?
Seriously, the guy did such a horrid job with a popular franchise.
Anywho, I just catch Dollhouse on Hulu on the weekends so I’m not watching 17 minutes of commercials. My Fox affiliate’s digital transmitter is still down too.
Did anyone think last summer, before Flashpoint’s first episode premiered, that the show could kill Dollhouse? Flashpoint was supposed to be a summer show and Dollhouse was supposed to be the Next Hot Thing.
RJ, is Lie to Me really on the bubble? It’s doing very well in the Renew/Cancel Index. It had one bad week last week, but IMHO it’s too early to tell if it’s a bubble show or not.
That is surprising to say the least. I imagine TSCC’s DVR numbers will probably rocket up by like 50% or something, but that only matters if they matter to renewal decisions. Damn, what the hell is happening to Friday night television?
“RJ, is Lie to Me really on the bubble? It’s doing very well in the Renew/Cancel Index. It had one bad week last week, but IMHO it’s too early to tell if it’s a bubble show or not.”
Well FOX did pull it for a week in favor of a new Bones episode. Plus it went from a 3.1 demo to a 2.6 demo from one episode to the next. I don’t know what FOX is thinking, but I’m guessing its on the bubble now.
I am a die hard Dollhouse fan and I look forward every week to watch a new episode but I cant lie, I just have to say that I really think Fox is going to cancel it BUT I also think that there is a very good chance that Sci Fi Channel will pick it up for a 2nd season because they are going to air the episodes in the UK so there is a good chance for them to pick it up next season in the US.
Lie to Me is not on the bubble. The only FOX show on the bubble is Dollhouse and it is probably gonna be canceled. Which is a pity, btw, because the show is getting really good.
RJ, an 18-49 demo of 2.6 for Lie To Me doesn’t put it on the bubble yet. That’s still 96% of Fox’s pre-Idol average. But any more declines and it’s bubbleicious!
This week’s featured “Dollhouse” deus ex machina: Automatically activated sedative. That’s creatively inexcusable – like Matrix Revolutions.
I decided to see (since writing it off at the first episode) this train wreck of a show for myself since the “good” episodes are now airing.
“Dollhouse” isn’t even going down despite good quality. What an awful episode. Is everyone sure that the episodes after #6 are the mythical “good” episodes? This one failed on fundamentals, despite some obvious Whedon touches (e.g., “I like pancakes.” “We’re all going to die.”) that showed his involvement even though someone else got a sole writing credit for the episode.
For those who think a tick up in the demo means a turnaround, check out the trend that includes last night:
1 Dollhouse 2.0/6 4.73
2 Dollhouse 1.7/5 4.22
3 Dollhouse 1.6/5 4.13
4 Dollhouse 1.5/5 3.55
5 Dollhouse 1.6/5 4.30
6 Dollhouse 1.5/5 4.13
7 Dollhouse 1.3/4 3.87
8 Dollhouse 1.4/5 3.49
After seeing last night’s episode that is supposedly one of the “good” ones, I don’t think one can even argue saving this show on quality grounds.
Poor quality + poorly watched = Canceled
Only hardcore grokking Whedonites will be sticking with this show – and there obviously is not many of them.
Where’s all the crazy Dollhouse fans? Their posts are my saturday morning entertainment, and there’s none to be found
Dan, Eliza is in a talent holding deal with 20th Century Fox, so Sci-Fi can’t pick up the show.
Dollhouse did trend up very slightly this week vs. last week but that’s still nowhere near enough to save it at this point. I don’t think its impossible that Dollhouse will be back next year (it is impossible TSCC will be back) but its going to take something astonishing to turn things around at this point and I’m not holding my breath on that happening.
As I said last week short of a miracle Dollhouse is done – when you can’t beat a repeating Supernanny or CBS line-up then its time to throw in the towel.
I recall seeing somewhere, though, that the PVR and Hulu numbers for Dollhouse are strong.
And c’mon — the episode wasn’t that bad. And doesn’t TV need more shows like this instead of all the reality crap?
Both Buffy and Angel started off slowly (and, admittedly, kind of poorly, quality-wise) in their first seasons but then took off in their second — I’m hoping Dollhouse gets a chance to hopefully do that too.
Alex, the overnights were slightly off last week due to March Madness – the revised final Dollhouse score was 1.4, so it’s the same as last week.
Dollhouse’s last few episodes have been great (and I will maintain that the first half of the season was good), but yeah…looks like it’ll have Wonderfalls’ fate. But I hope Joss at least tells fans in painstaking detail what his five-year plan was for the show, since he has said he has one.
wow last night’s episode of dollhouse was great! it was one of the best hour of television i ever seen for a long time!!!! it was all a joke?? poor echo, when i saw her felt on the ground i though ‘what the hell is going on??’. and vicktor and sierra were so cute!! november too. so they left the actives lives outside to satisfy their needs: good idea joss, a kingy experience but it was so great! im really sad for the audience because i know a lot of my friend which download it. you can not put a show with a young audience on friday at nine. who’s watching it? it’s not my problem because usually i left home over ten, but its me, not all the america. i hope fox is airing all the episodes until may 22, and next time they show like this, to put it after american idol!! or before, its the same
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7221/terminatorratings.jpg
Dollhouse + TSCC Ratings analysis, (season 2 of TSCC).
These are all based on TVbyTheNumber/MarcBerman numbers…
It’s fairly obvious that both shows are consistent in their numbers… But things keep happening causing drops in numbers, and they are not TSCC/Dollhouse writing teams’ fault. Although Dollhouse has the advantage of lead in and the recent episode ratings seem to indicate it is the writing team’s fault.
As for TSCC, I dunno, I guess action packed awesome episodes that are now more close to the actual storyline just drive away fans according to the numbers… Either that or Marc Berman is making a lot of typos… Or Nielsen accuracy is 50%< or a bug in the Nielsen system is causing random fluctuations. Or maybe, Monsters VS Aliens and TSCC/Dollhouse are the exact same fans (wouldn’t make sense).
Furthermore… I thought last night’s Dollhouse episode was the best… finally something actual is going on… I was sick of seeing stupid dolls.
I love Dollhouse, but I would fall over in shock if it came back next season. It is done.
ho Gossi you really wrong. eliza’s deal with fox is over in july, so if scy-fy or sy-fy want to pick up Dollhouse, They Can! if the cast and the creator are agree..
Why do wednesdays ratings include the 18-34 and this one doesn’t? Just curious.
ON TSSC’s RATINGS
Ok. First of all there is a 4.48M decrease in total viewers in 8-9 pm slot. last week total viewers were 25.1 M, this week 20.62 M. last week TSSC has 3.83M total viewers so 3.83/25.1=0.152, this week 3.35/20.62=0.162.. So there is a slight increase in the rate of viewers among total viewers of that time slot. If you normalize numbers of this week to last weeks, than tssc’s total numbers will slightly more than 4M.(25.1*0.162=4.07)..
Thus, there was a drop in total viewers this week and this affected total numbers of all shows… TSSC’s this week numbers are not worser than last week’s numbers, relatively
JustTunedIn: for Sunday night through Thursday data we see that information the next morning and include it in the overnight report. Unfortunately I won’t see that information for last night until Monday morning. we don’t see Friday night and Saturday night data at that level until Monday.
The chances for a DOLLHOUSE renewal are certainly VERY slim right now, indeed.
But I don’t think that FOX will decide against it before the first post-PRISON-BREAK-airing — I’d say, that’s the only realistic chance DH has to pick up any measurable amount of new viewers – and FOX knows that, too.
It at least seems kinda stable atm, if only on a little higher level…
And TSSC and DH stil beats NBC’s shows in demo (both were new not repeats.) Howie do it’s demo number is wrong, it should be 1.1/4 according to mediaweek
Thanks for the explanation Robert. Can you update to post those numbers on Monday?
Re: drop in viewers. I can understand that fewer people will be watching tv on fridays now that the weather in the northern states is starting to get nicer (and the sun stays up later).
hagi, that 1.4 for Howie Do It definitely should’ve been a 1.1, and has been fixed. But comparing more expensive scripted programming to very cheap unscripted programming at 8pm on NBC, and subsidized by DirecTV programming at 9pm doesn’t make for very worthwhile comparisons in my opinion.
JustTunedIn, based on readership the post will get Monday morning and beyond, it’s not worth the trouble, sorry.
I agree with hagi… # of total viewers is down… if we compared with the same numbers as last week, TSCC would be at 4 mil + now…
JustTunedIn, Friday [and Saturday] is a dead slot in American TV – so, no 18-34 here.
I wish that, for just one week, you would post the ratings for Friday night and not give us your typical “Dollhouse is DEFINITELY done!” and “There’s NO WAY Terminator is coming back!” analysis.
Jason, if the shows did amazing ratings you would see that. Since it’s a TV ratings website.
hagi, that a hard-core accomplishment. fox is gonna fill the airwaves with “WE FINALLY BEAT HOWIE DO-IT!(Just LIKE 95% of friday television)”
hagi, are you aware that a REPEAT of Supernanny tied with Dollhouse? there’s no way Dollhouse is coming back.
is it time to start fighting for dollhouse or not yet ? , i don’t understand the absolute hate for this series , try just to give it a chance it will impress you guys!!!!
Even if it’s bad , why are people this much happy to see it fall ?
hagi, jonathan, that analysis just plain wrong, you didn’t take into account cable viewers who are >50% of primetime audiences.
If you want to know what % of a TV viewing demo currently watching TV was watching a particular show all you need to is look at the share. Last night TSCC’s 18-49 share was a 5 (meaning 5% of that demo watching TV was watching TSCC), last week it was a 5, the week before it was a 5. The same.
jason… what exactly do you think the point of this site is? an overoptimistic fanboy haven?
i dont think anything, even 7 million viewers would save either of these shows
BTW it was raing here last night so that probally why ratings were down. after all, Idaho greatly effect tv markets
Yes Robert, but this is tvbynumbers and i am comparing numbers…
And yes those shows may be cheap compared to TSSC and DH (i do not know exact costs).. But can those cheap shows is more profitable than those supposedly expensive scripted shows? I do not think so.. because you cannot earn money from howie do it or Smarter than 5th something on internet (amazon, itunes sales, hulu, Fod commercials) and strong dvd sales? Who would buy a dvd of howie do it anyway?
I have the same opinion: Either Fox will air some show which aims Ghost whisperers viewers, or renew both scifi shows. It will not be more profitable to air smarter than … or similar shows and cancels TSSC( and DH).. Both shows have different type of viewers than reality shows, It will not be a wise movement to lose those kind of viewers for Fox..
there’s so much rounding with the way we see the demo rating/share numbers that it’s not possible to make any definitive conclusions on this week’s viewing versus last week’s without seeing this week’s HUT/PUT versus last week’s, but unfortunately we won’t see last night’s to make that comparison until Monday either.
Robert’s rounding caveat applies to my comment above on share, but it’s much more likely the demo audience share was flat, than not.
I was told FOX was going to wait until PRISON BREAK was back to gauge the fate of DOLLHOUSE. They seem to think that PRISON BREAK will have more of a lead in. We’ll have to wait and see.
The 1.4 isn’t good. I said before dropping to a 1.4 is canceled territory and I stick by it. However, FOX isn’t going to make their decision yet. Still I don’t see the show trending back up to safer 1.6 and 1.7 territory. If it does then you’ll have questions. Right now, there is no trend up, so it says canceled.
everyone please stop im a HUGE!!! HUGE!!! Dollhouse fan but have the respect to say its done
Hagi, we know that iTunes sales probably amount to about ~$50,000 per new episode (and that’s before iTunes gets its cut!). Unfortunately not enough ads run on Hulu where even if one million extra viewers were watching a week it would help a lot (perhaps $100,000 per episode). And a million people per week are not watching that way.
DVD is the critical component. Obviously, if TSCC and Dollhouse were going to sell a million copies of each season’s DVD, the discussion is over and those shows will be more profitable. But TSCC didn’t sell a million DVDs.
I don’t know how many DVDs TSCC sold. But even if it sold 200,000 for season 1 at $20, over the course of the season, purely based on a cost of production and revenues (not necessarily cost to the network, in this case, FOX) Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader is likely to be more profitable. Even though nobody downloads it from iTunes, even though few would watch it on Hulu and even though nobody buys DVDs of it.
Do you guys get the 18-34 info for the shows last night?
I think that FOX should at least try pairing Dollhouse up with either Bones and House and see what happens
Chicc_o, a lot of people have trouble with a show whose premise involves rapists getting away with it every week.
“I think that FOX should at least try pairing Dollhouse up with either Bones and House and see what happens”
Why would they do that now? They are not going to waste a powerful lead in for a show that cant even get 4 million viewers and a 1.5 demo. If it would have stayed at a 2.0 demo for a few weeks when it premiered, it might have happened. FOX is not changing around their lineup for a crappy show now.
What the hell, there’s no way that can be the TSCC’s numbers. The show last night was incredible. I’m so sick of mindless crap like Supernanny and Wipe Swap getting better ratings. The human intelligence as a whole in going in the toilet.
Anyway, Fox and WB have those numbers that we do not have, and they will decide about the fate of this (fantastic, imho) show in a month (if not already). Will you guys miss us?
djm, I don’t think the site should be “an overoptimistic fanboy haven.” Did I say or even indicate that anywhere? Don’t think so. I also don’t think the writer of the article should employ the same repetitive, tired “analysis” week to week as a kind of throwaway commentary to the shows’ performances. Hearing the writer simply state his opinion over and over again that one or both the shows are doomed takes zero talent. If you’re just going to state the same opinion repeatedly instead of actually working to provide an in-depth analysis of the numbers in relation to the time slot, the competition’s demos, statements from Fox executives related to the shows, etc., then just post the numbers and let people draw their own conclusions from them and keep the opinions to separate articles (which have also been featured from time to time).
Jason, If the numbers were any different, the analysis would be too.
it would be great if next season fox will pair dollhouse with bones on wednesday at nine! hell’s kithchen the same number of dollhouse before bones as its lead-in
I think that Dollhouse was Amazing last night.
But i cant help but to wonder, why people are not watching it!
I thought maybe fox calling it an “event” would have made a difference.
“The awaking”, guess not :/
I sure hope it sticks around, but it looks grim.
I’d love to see TSCC come back for a third season; it’s got a huge amount of promise, a dedicated fan-base and a mythology that’s compelling. Plus, some of the new story-lines (The T-1001 that is raising Weaver’s daughter, John-Henry and his ‘brother’, the recurring glitch in Cameron’s system, etc.) and I really like the way they aren’t afraid to kill major characters and the fact that they do it without a 3 week lead-in that everyone can see coming.
Dollhouse is absolute dreck… typical Whedon nonsense involving a 90-lb waif of a girl who just happens to be a human wrecking ball who goes through 200-lb men like they aren’t even there. I just hope that after this latest failure, the studios realise he is a one-trick pony whose only truly inventive, creative flash of brilliance was FIREFLY.
I may be alone here but I find the whole ‘only idiots watch reality television’ argument incredibly short sighted and I find it incredibly annoying that angry fans use it as a knee jerk reaction to explain their shows low ratings – why on earth do you need a high IQ to watch Terminator? Or Dollhouse? They’re both fundamentally very simple and base level shows that doesn’t require much in the way of cerebral effort from their audience, which is true for the vast majority of scripted television.
What so many people fail to grasp is that reality television is successful because it does what scripted shows repeatedly fail to do – create engaging characters with fulfilling story arcs. American Idol is a monster hit because the producers cast it and edit it together brilliantly and allow the audience to instantly forge relationships with the contestants, I can point to several hundred scripted shows that don’t even come close to touching American Idol in terms of presenting characters, their motivations and their desires. On top of that Idol has this brilliant life changing concept at its heart, you pluck a complete nobody from obscurity and make them the biggest star in the country even if its only for a few weeks. Its essentially the American dream played out on prime time television.
Something like Supernanny meanwhile is essentially just a procedural. It doesn’t require any more or less intelligence to watch Supernanny than it would CSI, The Mentalist, House or Life because for all intensive purposes it’s the exact same format – brilliant central character solves a case of the week.
It amazes me how many people fail to grasp that reality television is such a success because it takes everything that scripted shows do and uses real people instead of actors.
I think they should have 24 lead into TSCC, and House lead into Dollhouse, I assure you ratings would be higher than that crappy show Fringe.
The only reason Fringe has had its success is simply because American Idol leads into Fringe, that’s it. People learn about shows, they like it, and they stick to it. This is why… Dollhouse and TSCC BOTH relatively new shows perform badly, especially when you put it on Fridays, it starts to lose to unscripted shows, because no one has heard about them.
Everyday I meet people who have never heard of either show… Oh but they know who’s winning on American Idol for sure! And they’ve heard of Fringe, and don’t think it’s that great.
If Networks want to judge accuracy, they should do opinion polls through pollsters of all their shows, with levels from 1-20 (how would you rate this and this show?). It would be a lot more accurate than using Nielsen data.
Robert: I think the friday threads get looked at for more days than the other threads. There were still a lot of new posts on monday for last friday’s thread. Since so much of the discussion re dollhouse and T:TSCC has to do with the audience type compared to Super Nanny and Wife Swap I don’t see how it would hurt.
Otherwise, is there another website where this data would be posted more routinely?
I love TSCC and as much as i’d like another season, looking at the numbers i accepted the truth and will enjoy next weeks episode which will be the series finale. The Death of Derek also helped a bit since he was my favorite character besides Cameron and with him gone the series died a bit for me.
As for Dollhouse: i do watch it, but it’s nothing special for me. It’s somewhat interesting but so far im not really hooked up with it. I expected more from a Joss Whedon show. At least i won’t be sad if it’s getting cancelled aswell.
I’m not sure you can even use the “no one knew about it” excuse for Dollhouse (which was talked about non-stop by entertainment news). You definitely CANNOT use it for TSCC. Remember, this launched after a major football game and had pretty good numbers last season. It dropped viewers throughout this fall on Monday before being moved to Friday. People knew about the show, they just didn’t care.
As for Alex, your analysis is the biggest BS I read.
How can you connect with random characters that don’t at all relate with you? They are singing, you’re out here studying for a degree in ___ or already have a job as a _____ and these young kids are out there singing, some not so great, others OK. They all have dreams, but why should we care about everyones dreams…
American Idol is successful because of the science of sociology, network timing, and celebrities… If it was all about “characters” and how “effective editing” American Idol does…
Then we would see a heartfelt show about Cancer patients and their hopes and dreams of doing this or that for the first time. And a show like that would have ratings skyrocketing… It doesn’t, because no one cares about people’s dreams/feelings etc unless they relate directly to them or have a compelling storyline with a lot of feeling.
The Office is successful because of sociology too. People tell each other about how funny the show is. Some shows skyrocket because of this. Some songs skyrocket in the charts because of this phenomenon. It has nothing to do with skill, otherwise only Britney’s Amazing songs would be famous and not every single song she produces.
If what you said was true, St. Anger would not have been #1 on the billboard.
Jonathan opinion polls wouldn’t prove to be more accurate at all for several reasons.
1 – It isn’t a gauge of how many people are actually watching the show. People often forget that Nielsen numbers are not a mark of the quality (or lack thereof) of a show but just how many people watch it. Scoring a huge Nielsen number doesn’t something is a fantastically well written show it just means a lot of people watched it and in reality that’s really all networks care about. If a shows terrible but it scores a 4.0 then its not going anywhere.
2 – Unless you’re going to force everybody you poll to watch at least one episode of every show on television it doesn’t solve the problem of people not knowing about a show. If you were to ring up a 100 people and poll them on the Fox line-up right now more people will still have heard of Fringe and rate it higher than Dollhouse.
3 – Quality is massively subjective. I’ve only seen a handful of episodes of Fringe but personally I’d probably rate it as a better show than Dollhouse right now primarily because Fringe has from what I’ve seen been relatively consistent whilst Dollhouse has produced some of the worst television this season.
4 – Why do advertisers care if the people who watch a show love it or not? A 1.4 is still a 1.4 whether all the people watching would rate it higher than Fringe. Advertising isn’t sold on the basis of quality its sold on the basis of how many people are watching. Dollhouse’s problem is that even for a Friday not enough people watch it no matter how you measure the audience that’s going to be the case.
Holly you’re wrong, the show didn’t drop much after it’s premiere… Only about a mil, that’s pretty stable… Compare that to the 18 mil to 11 mil drop for TSCC in Season 1 (the pilot wasn’t that great, so it was an acceptable drop, and it happens to a lot of pilots).
TSCC was relatively stable for a long time, until a 3 week break in the middle of Season 2, there was a significant average drop… Then finally the 2 month break + Friday move, there was also a significant average drop…
However, TSCC never bled viewers on average, in fact, it was moved/vacationed each time, right as it was gaining lots of viewers.
“I think they should have 24 lead into TSCC, and House lead into Dollhouse, I assure you ratings would be higher than that crappy show Fringe.”
Give me a break! They are not going to do it. TSCC had its chance when it started with 18 million viewers, obviously they hated it. Dollhouse is just pure crap.
Holly is right, and it’s about the numbers, not the words. If the numbers had been different the commentary would’ve been different.
Alex, I agree completely. Of course I’m an idiot who currently is watching TWO reality shows. I’ve been a Hell’s Kitchen regular viewer since season two and for the first time in many years, because I caught it on the on-demand while the first 4 episodes were still there, I’ve been watching Survivor: Tocantins and have really enjoyed it.
Also Fringe received a similar 4.5 mil drop as TSCC did after pilot. TSCC dropped more because I believe like you said, it was after a football game, it wasn’t the sci-fi audience…
well I still belive that dollhouse wikk be upwith prison break lead in, in two weeks
The final three episodes of Pushing Daisies will begin airing on Saturday, May 30th at 10pm. Goode Family premieres at 9pm in May following Wipeout.
RJ it has nothing to do with hate… people just don’t watch shows because they are good, they watch shows if it fits their whole interests… House is successful because it relates to exactly the 18-49 as a whole…
TSCC only fits 18-34 at best… DH is the same. Which is a weakness because such viewers don’t usually have Nielsen boxes either.
Some people just like sci-fi in the movies only… I know many like that who won’t even TRY TSCC or Dollhouse simply because they are too busy or don’t want to get hooked on a show even if its good. Yet the same guy watches Cops and sports all day…
Jonathan, “only fits 18-34 at best… DH is the same. Which is a weakness because such viewers don’t usually have Nielsen boxes either.”
No.
Insert all caveats on Nielsen fallibility here, but not representing an age demo like that with their sample is not one of them.
“TSCC only fits 18-34 at best”
I fall in that group, and I think T:SCC is stupid.
“people just don’t watch shows because they are good, they watch shows if it fits their whole interests”
Since the Terminator movies are popular, the television series should be as well. It just shows you people hate it.
18-34 don’t like TV. The people I know who graduated college in the last, say, 4 years did not sign up cable TV service when they graduated. The techies are used to their computer as a primary TV, and the others just watch DVDs and play video games. Live TV is like email, it’s for old people.
Kyle, you do realize that MOST shows do better in the 18-34 demo than Dollhouse and TSCC,don’t you?
haha tv is not for old people i enjoy watching tv and i am 26
What I don’t understand is why networks don’t consider household income and spending habits when determining whether to cancel a show.
Mike, they definitely take it into account, allthough it’s likely a secondary factor vs. size of a show’s adult demo audience. What made you think they didn’t?
“How can you connect with random characters that don’t at all relate with you? They are singing, you’re out here studying for a degree in ___ or already have a job as a _____ and these young kids are out there singing, some not so great, others OK. They all have dreams, but why should we care about everyones dreams…”
Yet you think that people can relate to a character like Echo in Dollhouse? Someone who has their memories wiped at the end of every episode and has no real personality, desires or dreams of her own? Ultimately that’s Dollhouse’s real problem, not the misogynistic overtones, the air of prostitution or even that it airs on a Friday. The problem with the show is that the central character is by the design of the show a blank slate who the audience can’t forge a connection with because she’s completely different every week and if the audience doesn’t care about Echo/Caroline then we don’t care about the unconvincing FBI agents attempts to save her and bring down the Dollhouse.
Dollhouse is bleeding viewers for the same reason Heroes did – when the characters are different people every week the audience can’t connect with them and therefore don’t care what happens to them. You can get through hours of bad writing if you have characters that people care about and forge relationships with. Character continuity is incredibly important and American Idol (along with reality television in general) has that by the bucket load, which is why people will watch it.
Television is all about characters and the audience connecting with them.
“American Idol is successful because of the science of sociology, network timing, and celebrities… If it was all about “characters” and how “effective editing” American Idol does…”
For all intensive purposes American Idol is a scripted drama – and I don’t mean that in the sense its all heavily manufactured (although it is).
If you break Idol down it has all the elements that every and any successful scripted show needs and it does edit it all together brilliantly. In the space of thirty-sixty second sound bites the Idol production team tell us everything about someone who’s auditioning and instantly you decide whether you like them or want them to succeed. And the way judging panel is cast and presented is astonishingly brilliant.
I’m not an Idol fan but I can watch it and recognise it for the phenomenal achievement that it is because it is a phenomenal achievement. The truth is that the people who have a favourite Idol contestant are likely more attached to that contestant than they are with the vast majority of characters on scripted television. Reality television is successful because it uses the same conventions and devices as scripted television and in the case of American Idol it does it better than just about anything else on television.
“Then we would see a heartfelt show about Cancer patients and their hopes and dreams of doing this or that for the first time. And a show like that would have ratings skyrocketing… It doesn’t, because no one cares about people’s dreams/feelings etc unless they relate directly to them or have a compelling storyline with a lot of feeling.”
You’d see a successful cancer patient show if you cast it right with a good mix of people who have interesting stories to tell. Of course you’d also have to be able to deliver a happy ending at the end of it all, which would mean at least one person on the show getting the all clear. A huge part of the success of Idol is that every year there’s a happy ending for someone because every year someone wins and changes their life or their families lives.
Take a look at something like The Bachelor this year, which had a massive ratings resurgence because of the casting of The Bachelor. He had the tragic back story of having his heart broken on the show previously plus he was trying to find a mother for his son. The casting of The Bachelor this year was genius and that’s why the show worked so well and it’s the connection to the central character(s) that made the finale of the show all the more shocking. It was the last minute twist that nobody saw coming because they thought they knew these people.
“The Office is successful because of sociology too. People tell each other about how funny the show is. Some shows skyrocket because of this. Some songs skyrocket in the charts because of this phenomenon. It has nothing to do with skill, otherwise only Britney’s Amazing songs would be famous and not every single song she produces.”
You’re trying to compare music sales with television and they’re not strictly speaking compatible.
Although I will say this Britney Spears sells records because she’s Britney Spears and her fans love her. That’s the same basic concept that drives television of all kinds. What every show wants is a character that overrides the quality of the episodes just like the fact that Britney Spears over rides the quality of her music. House is a massively successful television show because that’s what they have, in Dr. House the producers have a character who will make audiences keep coming back even if the episode quality slips.
The same can be said for the cast of Friends. People would keep coming back for more there because of the characters. The Simpsons has faded in quality but because people still love Homer they keep coming back for more. Television is nothing if it doesn’t have the characters that people care about and want to see. Successful shows aren’t driven by their plots or mysteries they’re driven by their characters. Desperate Housewives is a prime example of this. The mystery isn’t important anymore and they largely recycle the same plots every year but people will keep coming back for more despite all that because they love the characters.
nomark1 I agree with you I think FOX should bring SmackDown over and air it on their network on friday nights since MyNetwork is turning into a rerun channel anyway I think WWE could keep a good solid number on FOX
Mike, They do. The nets get breakdowns based on gender, income, education level and other factors, but we don’t have regular access to those numbers, so we can’t really discuss them.
This sucks. Dollhouse was the first Whedon production I actually liked, and it’s joining the small category of Stuff Made By Joss Whedon That Wasn’t Astonishingly Successful, until now only occupied by one other TV show.
From what I can figure out, three things have killed it. An initial run of compromised episodes (if you hark back to the original definition of the word “Pilot” as applied to TV, they really felt like they were intended to be a kind of five part pilot, that is: not intended for broadcast, just for selling the show to Fox), a pairing with The Worst Science Fiction Show On Network TV (unless you count Fringe as SF, and who does?), and, well, a concept that was fairly creepy and off-putting according to many of the show’s detractors.
What a shame. Add this to T:SCC, which could have been great and nearly was, and this is going to be a depressing year for science fiction.
Alex – Dollhouse has plenty of heroes and villains, you don’t have to connect to Echo at all, although they are fleshing her (or rather “Caroline”) out.
“For all intensive purposes” is ours. Where should we send the bill?
Too bad about Dollhouse I guess, but even though the show improved over the last 3 or 4 episodes it doesn’t feel like the framework is strong enough to support further improvements… unless the Dollhouse is toppled in the near future and they reboot the premise. If they go back to the mission of the week format I can’t see how the show can grow. And they can’t get rid of Eliza because of the contractual stuff so that’s one problem they can’t fix.
TSCC is fantastic. Love Derek’s death — no swell in music, no dramatic speech, no slowmo, just a bullet to the head and no time to pause. Too bad this show wasn’t on FX or TNT or something where it might have sustained with a small audience. Action scenes are already sparse and if they kept them stylized like the Johnny-Cash-pool-shootout they might get by with a lot less money. Weirdly enough the show I most associate with Terminator is Breaking Bad. Yay that show is coming back at least.
I know what you mean Kyle. I don’t have cable TV and go to a friend’s house to watch Terminator. With my friends it’s about half and half. Most of my friends get cable but to be honest only sit in front of their tvs when playing video games or watching a movie; or for shows we are dedicated viewers of. Most tv watching is done while on their computers (set up in the same room as the tv); it’s on in the background but not the main focus.
My parents on the other hand will sit in front of the tv for the entire evening.
But my case is just one teensy-tiny example, and may not support at all what the majority of people my age are doing.
Just a tid-bit from Nielson Wire
“Except for the teenage years, viewing of traditional television increases with age; the use of video on the Internet peaks among young adults while viewing mobile video is highest in the teen years.”
Is tvbythenumbers only concerned with Nielsen numbers or do you do analysis of other numbers as well?
Your show sucks haha people hate it
:rolleyes:
Dollhouse was really awesome last nite! wish the ratings were better:(
“Dollhouse has plenty of heroes and villains, you don’t have to connect to Echo at all, although they are fleshing her (or rather “Caroline”) out.”
But every single one of them is connected to Echo and her fate.
The only reason to like or care about the unconvincing (ex)FBI agent is that he’s trying to save Echo from the Dollhouse. The only reason to dislike the people in the Dollhouse is that they’re keeping the ‘dolls’ including Echo prisoner. Echo/Caroline is the central character of the show and she’s a different person every week so we don’t form connections and relationships with her. The major mistake Whedon and co. made with Dollhouse is focusing so quickly on the Dollhouse and Echo.
What they should have done is focused on establishing the unconvincing (ex)FBI agent and making people care about him. If you understand him and his motivations then you keep coming back to see if he can break the Dollhouse and whilst you hook the audience in with that you slowly start to reveal the Echo/Caroline plotline and over time shift into more focus on what’s happening within the Dollhouse.
JustTunedIn, If you read our site regularly you’ll see analysis of all sorts of TV related numbers, including online viewing, downloading, etc.
we’re interested in the other numbers, but the overnight and weekly Nielsen numbers are the only thing released out into the wild in a regular enough of a fashion to regularly produce. Most (though not all) of the data from other sources isn’t produced regularly enough or things are lumped together but not on a per show basis to regularly post about, though when we see that sort of data, we generally post it. If you don’t already subscribe to our RSS feed, I’d subscribe to it for a month or so and over time scroll through the variety of things that we wind up posting.
ah, the Bit Torrent downloading info* is produced weekly — good catch:
http://tvbythenumbers.com/category/new-technology/top-tv-show-downloads
*I don’t think that list is much help in predicting show renewals and cancellations, but some believe it is a predictor of DVD sales which ultimately can be a predictor for renewals.
Bill and Holly. I know that they take it into account. I was being ironic or rather indicating that it’s ironic it isn’t discussed here. Personally, I think that the household income/spending demo would be much more important than the 18-49 demo. Can’t sell much product to people who don’t have much money.
Mike, the primary reason it isn’t discussed here is that we don’t get income demo data on a regular basis. Even the data linked in Julia’s post on 30 Rock is an annual list, which is I believe all we have typically seen.
“But I hope Joss at least tells fans in painstaking detail what his five-year plan was for the show, since he has said he has one.”
From where I’m sitting the five-year plan seems to be relatively clear – Dollhouse the global political thriller with sleeper agents infiltrating Governments the world over. The sad thing is I think that’s quite an interesting idea and its a shame we’ll likely never get to see it outside of the inevitable comic spin-off.
Why hasn’t Nick C posted to say the numbers in two weeks time matter most for DOLLHOUSE yet?
(Just kidding Nick). (Sorta).
Gossi he already has…
“I was told FOX was going to wait until PRISON BREAK was back to gauge the fate of DOLLHOUSE. They seem to think that PRISON BREAK will have more of a lead in. We’ll have to wait and see.”
Gossi, stop that. Nick is living the charmed life on multiple levels.
First, many people visit our site to see what he, and what he alone, has to say. I saw something on Twitter last week about how boring and lame our Dollhouse threads were when Nick C didn’t participate!
Second, he calls it like he sees it (and he sees it cancelled)
But thirdly, he is still a shining (perhaps the shine is muted, but still) beacon of hope by saying that FOX *is* waiting to see what happens in a couple of weeks. So from that perspective, even though he thinks it will be canceled what happens in two weeks IS most important.
Bill. I think that DVD sales may be a good indicator of household income. Are those available somewhere.
Mike, there is good DVD info at: the-numbers.com (no relation)
Hm. I read more articles on there. Comment from Susan D. Whiting, Vice Chair & Executive Vice President, The Nielsen Company.
The average TV viewing is 5.5 hours PER DAY!
Is that right? To me that sounds very high. That would mean on a workday the tv is on from 6pm to 11:30 pm. No wonder we have an obesity problem!
I was kidding, although taking an easy shot granted. I know myself (doing a fansite for this thing since the day DH was announced) that FOX are waiting it out a little bit longer. And the sets are still up.
I think, personally, they’ll call it early May, and possibly get Whedon to announce it to avoid distracting people during the upfronts. TERMINATOR, obviously, they’re going to be quiet about.
Thanks Robert, i will sign up for that feed you talked about.
I check out the DVR and Overnights. I just notice when anyone brings up other numbers (iTunes, etc.) the response here is “it doesn’t matter, the overnights is this and that’s all that matters” tone.
And it seems like the cancel index is only based on the Nielsen overnights as well. That’s where I was getting with on analysis. It seems very cut and dry, like you could set up an excel spreadsheet to do the analysis.
Will check out the two links you suggest and do a bit more surfing around the site to see what else is here. I have to admit that I came here through T:TSCC so at the moment primarily concerned with data that relates to it.
Thanks for the info.
JustTunedIn, do surf around, note the regular item headings in the white nav bar above, as well as those under More Ratings.
To be clear, the Renew/Cancel Index uses the season to date average *final* numbers, not the overnight fast affiliate numbers, and it *is* done with a spreadsheet.
And while it’s highly unlikely that the Nobel prize for mathematics is in my future, the Renew/Cancel Index’s usefulness should not be underestimated just because it is relatively simple to create and understand.
Did somebody say, “save Chuck”?
Sera said:
it would be great if next season fox will pair dollhouse with bones on wednesday at nine! hell’s kithchen the same number of dollhouse before bones as its lead-in
Sera, it would be great Fox renewed Dollhouse and paired it with Fringe on Wednesday nights next fall. Dollhouse airs at 8, Fringe at 9. But, seeing as Fringe is a top 20 show (it doesn’t matter if Idol is the lead-in, it’s still considered a hit tv show), and Dollhouse’s ratings are getting worse by the minute, even for Fridays.
Thanks for the explanation Bill, though those numbers are still Nielsen TV viewed numbers right? I do appreciate that they have a good track record with predicting a cancelled show, based on last years results and how programs are paid for (through advertising/commercials). For most genres I think one could look at those numbers and have a fair prediction of cancellation/renewals.
Not trying to prove to anyone here that T:TSCC WON’T be cancelled. Nielsen ratings say it will. Just trying to find reasons that Fox might consider which could make them to decide to stick with one more year. DVD sales, foreign markets, online viewing (what with the high product placement and that higher incomes stream more), itunes and amazon sales, etc. Trying to figure out what all the other data might mean for the show if they are saying the same thing. If all other data seems positive maybe Fox will renew but if it turns out those other numbers ALSO show weak support for the show then well… it’s goose is cooked. Basically i’m on the search for those numbers now.
Oooh, oooh, I’ll say it!!! SAVE CHUUUUCK!
Time between Jim dangling bait to Heather taking it: 8 minutes
CW Friday’s are simply pathetic..
JustTunedIn, “Thanks for the explanation Bill, though those numbers are still Nielsen TV viewed numbers right?”
Yes, they are the Live+Same Day averages from Nielsen for both individual shows and the networks.
Barring a miracle, Dollhouse certainly seems a goner at this point. It’s a shame because despite all it’s flaws, I do like the show. Whether the stories improved or not doesn’t matter one bit if there’s no one left to watch them, however.
It, also, can’t help that it has had Titanic: The Sarah Conner Chronicles for a lead-in. I always felt it’s first season numbers were artificially good as it had a stable lead-in and no real competition due to the strike. Season 2 started with disappointing numbers.
At this point both shows are going down hand in hand.
Robert. Thanks, it took some digging but the DVD sales numbers for TV shows turned out to be very interesting (at least to me). Some shows sold about as well as you might expect based on their ratings (The Office, Heroes), some did much worse (CSI, Two and a Half Men), and some did much better than I would have expected (Smallville). I know that Chuck and Pushing Daisies haven’t had the greatest rating but I was still shocked at how poorly their DVDs sold until I considered the fact that they only showed 13 and 10 episodes, respectively, last year.
Thanks again for the link.
Dollhouse…has a major problem, you can’t describe the show in one sentence or less…prety much all successfull shows stem from that.
House, Grumpy Doctor in Sherlock Holmes type medical mysteries.
2nd problem, Show name, everyone you tell about it is going to think something is wrong w/ you for watching a show with the name of something geared towards a young girl.
3rd Problem, for a show of this type to work Echo should be a character that you can root for or care about, look at Quantum Leap, Sam was in bad situations but he was always in controll of his actions, Echo is not she is programed and does whatever the personality of the week would do.
4th Problem, almost every job they have shown, a rich person could hire the real thing for less money, why hire Echo instead of a midwife, why Echo versus a random bank robber, why Echo versus an under cover PI in the singing epissode.
Problems galore, I still believe Fox will keep both Terminator and Dollhouse(13 episodes each), jus because once fall comes around (American Idle, Hell’s Kitchen, 24) don’t air in the fall and they will need to plug some holes, and I figure they want some stability and will keep most of their current dramas on the same nights,
SUN: til death/animated domination
Mon: 8PM: HOUSE 9PM:LIE TO ME
Tue: 8PM: Fringe 9PM:Terminater or Dollhouse
Wed: 8PM: My Name is Earle/new comedy 9PM:Til Death/New comedy
Thur:8PM:BONES 9PM: Kitchen Nightmares
FRI:8PM: 5th Grader/Dont Forget Lyrics 9PM: Glee
SAT: COPS/AMW
I have to disagree with those who think Prison Break will save Dollhouse. I’m not saying that Dollhouse is definitely doomed but really as someone who has generally liked Whedon’s shows (loved Firefly in fact) as far as I’m concerned Dollhouse doesn’t work. This week’s episode was particularly poor. I turned it off about 20 minutes in. I really thought (hoped) that Dollhouse had turned a corner two weeks ago (in terms of quality at least) but the last two episodes have left me cold.
The average is 5.5 hours of TV per day?
Amateurs.
I think that the people who think TSCC is better than Dollhouse didn’t see the last three episodes of Dollhouse or are dreaming.
There is also some guys saying Dollhouse sucks and deserves bad ratings. First, I bet they didn’t saw Man On The Street. Second, that’s just mean.
Robert, there’s a chance you have Dollhouse’s half-hour breakdown?
I have seen the last 3 episodes of Dollhouse and Terminator-SCC (or 2.5 episodes of Dollhouse). The Dollhouse episode two weeks ago was good. The last two not so much. I’ve seen all the Dollhouse episodes (except the premiere). Terminator is better and I’m wide awake. Have you seen the last 6 episodes of TSCC?
Mike says: “some did much better than I would have expected (Smallville).”
Smallville (among other WBTV titles) had significant excess DVD inventory and was on sale with retail prices as low as $14.99 per season for three months last year. It was on sale for $19.99 for one month prior to that and one month after that. Other selected (i.e., not all) WBTV titles were also pushed to clear out inventory.
Mike, when it comes to quality/enjoyment of the episodes I agree with you completely about Dollhouse (and I’ve seen them all). For the most part I have not enjoyed TSCC in season two (and I have seen them all, too).
I would rate the last three weeks of TSCC as definitely better than what came before it, but other than last night wouldn’t say I was wide awake.
I think the Josh Friedman has almost single handedly sucked the oxygen out of the franchise (TSCC). The last few episodes have been an improvement but considering how tragically boring most of them have been this year, that’s not really saying much. I *want* to like the show, I tune in every week hoping there will be signs of real improvement but it never gets beyond being mixed bag. The best things they’ve done recently has been to kill off all the dead weight.
If you check out the fan ratings at TV.com (can I say that), you’ll find that a many shows have overall ratings between 8.7 and 9.2, which is not surprising since the shows are rated by a biased group i.e. fans of the show. However, if you look at the Dollhouse ratings, you might be surprised. 7.9: That’s about as low as a show’s ratings go on that site, especially one that has a built in fan base.
I have liked most of season 2. I think it is a personal preference thing. I think when viewed on dvd, back to back without the commercial and week breaks things might tie in a bit better.
But anyway, enjoyment of tv is always subjective and a case of majority rules in terms of what is important.
Robert my comment was meant for you. I appreciate the feedback though.
Robert. sorry i meant that it wasn’t meant for you. geez, time for more caffiene
Mike, this is the Internet, if something is posted in public, I get to comment on it, whether it was meant for me or not. Your extraneous comments about my comments are not necessary in the future, but I appreciate the feedback though.
WHAT THE FUCK. DOLLHOUSE IS A FREAKIN MASTER PIECE…WHY ARE’NT PEOPLE WATCHING IT? ESPECIALLY LAST NIGHT , IT SHOW ROCKED!!! I HOPE IT GETS RENEWED OR AT LEAST FINISHED
omg, just saw the first trailer for Terminator. I try to avoid trailers for movies i’m looking forward to, because sometimes trailers give too much away, but got totally pulled into it and had to shut it off after realizing I was seeing too much. I CAN’T WAIT.
Anyway, reason I looked it up. It keeps being said on this site that the decision for the show renewal will be a month before the release of the movie, and therefore cannot have an effect on the decision to renew. The movie is released May 21. Fox has said decision will be made in May. Is it possible they will make the decision in late may? That website Mike mentions thinks that Fox is waiting on movie decision. Is there a deadline in May for the decision that forces it to be earlier than the 21st?
yawn.
“Robert, there’s a chance you have Dollhouse’s half-hour breakdown?”
This one was really meant for you.
Please.
Robert. From my point of view, there were two poor TSCC episodes (one horrible episode in fact), a few mediocre ones and a few great ones (including the last three). I have a feeling that Friedman had to come up with an entirely new path forward due 1) to the writer’s strike, 2) Fox’s desire for stand alone episodes and 3) a poorly executed transition from the old path to the new one. Without a writer’s strike I don’t think we would have seen Riley this season – I think John Connor’s mysterious Chem partner from last season (and her father) were intended to play major roles in the series as it moved forward and that that storyline was scuttled when the writer’s strike hit. And I think the stand alone episodes have made the transition for the old storyline to the new one more drawn out than it needed to be.
Ricardo, sadly I do not. And please note that the above YAWN was aimed at any discussion about Terminator: Salvation making any difference in its renewal prospects for FOX. It doesn’t. The show is done and will NOT be back on FOX, regardless of the movie. The yawn was NOT aimed at the Salvation trailer
JustTunedIn, “It keeps being said on this site that the decision for the show renewal will be a month before the release of the movie, and therefore cannot have an effect on the decision to renew.”
Not clear who you think is saying that, but it’s not Robert or I. The Fox upfront meeting is May 18, the fall schedule will be announced on or before that date. The Terminator: Salvation movie opens on May 21.
Mike, I have a feeling that discussing TSCC’s renewal prospects on FOX is a waste of time.
Mr Seidman, I had a question? What did you think of last night’s Terminator episode and do you think the rating it got reflected it’s quality?
Call me crazy but I hardly come across such exhilerating tv nowadays and I literally enjoyed every single minute. I wonder what you thought of it regardless of the ratings?
Dollhouse didn’t have a great pilot, I came away disappointed. I had the exact opposite reaction to TSCC. Personally I think the networks need to be a little less retarded when it comes to show placement and put some of these shows on cable from the get go as it’s clear they won’t survive on the major networks much longer then a season. TSCC could probably last 4 or more seasons and have a proper ending on SciFi. It’s not going to get that on Fox, it’ll have an unresolved ending that upsets people who won’t bother buying the DVD.
Tony, I don’t think at this point that TSCC’s ratings are tied to the quality of episodes. It seems that all but the hard core fans have stopped watching. I don’t think the quality of the episodes and the ratings are aligned at this point.
I enjoyed last night’s episode more than any episode in a while. I didn’t think it was OMFG, THIS IS GREAT, but at least it was good, which is more than I’d say about several episodes this season. I thought it was also better than the previous two episodes which were better than the ones that came before it.
Robert. Sorry I wasn’t implying that you couldn’t comment on what ever the heck you want to comment on. I don’t mind at all. In fact, I do appreciate your comments. I wasn’t being sarcastic. Your comments have generally been helpful. I was just saying my comment wasn’t directed at you personally.
I wasn’t discussing renewal, was I? I was discussing the quality of the show. Better shows have come and gone. More highly rated shows have come and gone. If it goes it goes, life goes on. I’ll miss Eli Stone more in any case.
The episodes at the beginning of the season for TSCC were down right bad. I would sit there after them and be like “What the heck were they thinking???”.
Robert. One thing I’ve found in posting at various blogs is that I often leave myself open to misinterpretation. I may disagree with you at times, but I would never intentionally disrespect you.
Mike, in the unlikely event Marc Guggenheim checks out the Friday night ratings posts, and their comments, I’m sure you just made him smile.
Ah. Didn’t know about the upfront meeting date.
I wish they would just announce the cancellation already. Other cancellations have already been announced, and there is only one episode left. It would maybe get more viewers to see the season finale if they knew it was a series finale (therefore more important). All that they’re doing is making us fans think that they’re waiting on some other piece of data that we don’t have (and allowing us to be ridiculed by everyone else for holding on to that scrap of hope).
JustTunedIn, we doubt FOX will ever announce it’s canceled, even at the upfronts. They will just likely announce a schedule that has no TSCC. We speculate Warner Bros would not be very happy if FOX made a formal announcement about TSCC being canceled prior to the movie release.
I didn’t consider that. That would explain why Fox has been so quiet about it. I thought the lack of information from Fox meant that they were still considering renewing it. But speculation that it is because WB is putting pressure on Fox to announce any negative press because of the effect that might have on the movie opening makes a lot of sense.
JustTunedIn, that “quiet” is not unique to Fox. All the networks are always “quiet” about shows they may cancel/not renew.
I’m very disappointed in DH’s numbers, as this show is the highlight of my week. I am hoping against hope that Fox gives it a 2nd season.
That said, I’m equally disappointed in some posters glee in seeing DH’s performance. In today’s reality tv overload, we should be cheering the success of any quality drama/variety/comedy shows. Otherwise the networks are going to continue to assume they can continue to feed us this dreck and we won’t care. (On behalf of those who don’t like to hear their brains turning to ooze, I care.)
If brilliant and entertaining shows like T:SCC, DH, Castle, Chuck, Life, and Fringe don’t warrant being renewed by the “major networks”, then I will continue to shift my viewership (and my spending) towards cable. USA, TNT, SciFi, FX etc have proven they are the future of quality programming, which is why they have so much of my life and DVR viewing.
*sigh* Oh well, I guess I can always look forward to DH:Season 2, the comic.
last nights tscc was great,
i keep on comparing heroes to tscc, heroes became a very boring series, while tscc is progressing nicely.
its a great show , i hope it gets renewed .
Actually, waz, I think Heroes and TSCC are similar in one respect. They both had very disappointing, boring second seasons overall. The big difference there is that Heroes *was* a breakout hit and was able to by itself more time.
They should just switch Dollhouse to the CW. It would have more of a chance to thrive besides Fox sucks. They always either cancel good shows, keep moving them to different nights or times, or delay a show so long people forget about it. Besides the CW is where most the Sci Fi shows are anyways.
Based on the 18-49 demo, EVERY show had frightful numbers! Ghost Whisperer failed to reach a 2.0 in the demo – Isn’t GW the king of Friday night? Don’t TV executives realize that if you treat any night like a wasteland it WILL turn into a wasteland. Exhibit A: Saturday. The only way to revive Friday ratings is to be aggressive in your programming choices (counter-programming) and to schedule scripted shows worth watching. Enough with TRASH!
Biggest Loser of Friday Night: Flashpoint (new epsisode, scripted series, lead in was in the 7 million range, demo under 2.0, faced extremely weak competition – broadcast/cable, airs at 9pm – higher HUT level than) Am I missing anything? The crew, CBS and fans of Flashpoint could only dream of this TRASH becoming the next ER or CSI: Crime Scene Investigation. Long live, ER!
Question 1: Does EVERY drama series on CBS skew older during repeats?
Question 2: What are the chances of NBC giving up 3 hours of primetime to its affiliates on Friday?
Question 3: How much stronger would Dollhouse be if its lead in was a much higher rated series (It’s painfuly obvious that T: TSCC is an extremely weak series in quality, viewers, and the demos)? Side note: DH is Desperate Housewives = 2 words; Dollhouse is Dollhouse = 1 word.
Question 4: Why aren’t TV executives trying much harder to attract viewers – especially males – between the ages of 20-49 to watch programming on Friday?
Question 5: Are females 12-49 MUCH more likely to watch “unscripted” series than males 12-49?
Question 6: The most important number in today’s TV industry is C3: 18-49. Will that ever change? Are those in their 20s much more attractive to advertisers than 18 and 19 year olds – after all they are still teenagers? How about C3: 20-49?
I’m sorry, but I find it hilarious that people are trying to defend what they deem “brilliant” television by attacking reality TV and acting like networks are working to advance this conspiracy to melt the public’s brains.
You don’t need to assume that those who watch reality TV are complete idiots or are being harmed in any way. Maybe they watch scripted shows, too? Maybe they just don’t like fiction? It’s not a bad thing. It’s a “to each his own” kind of thing. It’s not something to be an elitist about.
The problem is… Fox IS planning to announce cancellationORrenewal in May. Of course, it could be false, but Fox would have announced cancellation long ago, if it had thought TSCC was bound to fail, because they wouldn’t want media attention that TSCC is canceled days/weeks before the release of Terminator 4. It would royally anger WB, and damage T4 movie.
I think TSCC will be renewed. You still underestimate T4 effect. You also underestimate the internet popularity, which IS tracked by Nielsen.
Jonathan what makes you think that Fox absolutely will announce a renewal or cancellation and not just let Terminator slip off into the darkness like countless other series’ before it? Personally I hope you’re right and that one way or another Fox announces cancellation or a never going to happen renewal simply so we don’t have to suffer through months of ‘there’s still hope, Fox haven’t officially cancelled it’ delusions.
What remains interesting to me is that fans of the show continue to cling onto the hope that the success of Terminator 4 would somehow rub off onto TSCC, how exactly are you seeing that work? TSCC won’t be on the air when T4 is released. By the time TSCC returns to television for a hypothetical third season months would have passed and people won’t still be talking about T4, other films will be take pride of place and Oscar buzz will be start to take centre stage for movie fans and T4 won’t be included in that.
However on the off chance that a tiny percentage of the people who see T4 suddenly discover this Terminator show they previously knew nothing about airs on Fox and decide to check it out are they really going to stick around? What real overlap is there between the show and the movie? The movie takes place in a post-judgement day world has an enormous budget and includes major action sequences. TSCC doesn’t have any of that going for it.
This is like someone arguing that the raft of superhero movies released over the summer are somehow going to help Heroes turn their ratings around. Or that the success of Star Trek will turn Heroes numbers around because one actor is in both Heroes and Star Trek. There’s no real connection between the two. Just because you watch T4 doesn’t mean you’re going to watch or like TSCC.
And here’s a question people have ignored – what if T4 sucks (and I think that’s likely)? What if Fox renew TSCC on the strength of a possible T4 overlap and T4 gets absolutely panned by critics and fans? Suddenly the Terminator brand is completely worthless and anyone who sees an ad for TSCC is going to want nothing to do with the show.
“SUN: til death/animated domination
Mon: 8PM: HOUSE 9PM:LIE TO ME
Tue: 8PM: Fringe 9PM:Terminater or Dollhouse
Wed: 8PM: My Name is Earle/new comedy 9PM:Til Death/New comedy
Thur:8PM:BONES 9PM: Kitchen Nightmares
FRI:8PM: 5th Grader/Dont Forget Lyrics 9PM: Glee
SAT: COPS/AMW”
Ummm, they need more then a new comedy and Glee. Glee will NOT air on Friday. It will most likely be given a Tuesday or Wednesday slot so it has the American Idol lead in when Fall comes around. Plus FOX will have other shows. Terminator and Dollhouse are gone.
@Jonathan: It really is still up in the air, no matter what anyone says. There would certainly have been leaked inside info from creditable sources such as Aussielo if their decision had already been made. Nick C is the only creditable source I’ve heard, but then who knows if what he’s told is the truth or not (no offense man).
Something is going on behind the scenes, that’s for damn sure.
And it may or may not involve cancellation. WB could pull one hell of a deal.
*shrugs*
“Ghost Whisperer failed to reach a 2.0 in the demo – Isn’t GW the king of Friday night?”
-It was a repeat. So what if it didnt reach a 2.0 demo.
“Biggest Loser of Friday Night: Flashpoint (new epsisode, scripted series, lead in was in the 7 million range, demo under 2.0, faced extremely weak competition – broadcast/cable, airs at 9pm – higher HUT level than)”
How is Flashpoint a loser? It built from a repeat of Ghost Whisperer and built from its last new episode IIRC.
Currently there are 3.35M people that still care about TCSS. Even less than the lowest rated Pushing Daisies episode. The news of it’s cancellation would raise the same philosophical question as “If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?”
I see no point in keeping the cancellation a secret other than stopping the TV show’s numbers from going even lower, with some of those meager 3M getting upset, and stopping to watch live. The majority of the potential movie viewers of T4 are long gone, and wouldn’t even notice.
S, while you may see no point, networks are often very good at managing negative asymmetrical risk — they don’t do stuff that has NO or little upside which carries downside potential. Generally that downside is that advertisers don’t want to advertise on shows that are canceled. But I doubt FOX will make an announcement about it even after the finale airs next week because there is still no upside for FOX to do so.
Veran, by your logic you could also say “If Sci Fi was going to pick it up, Ausiello would’ve already heard from inside sources and reported at least the rumor.” But I don’t think it works that way.
Yesterday’s Dollhouse was the first episode I really actually liked. But it was Victor and Sierra that held my interest rather than Echo. I agree with the poster above that the very premise of the show makes it nearly impossible to care about the characters. Its like Mission Impossible on Prozac.
I’m so disappointed in TSCC. It can’t finish quickly enough.
I know a lot of smart people who watch reality shows. I just don’t understand why.
I totally see the downside for the Network, and I see the that there is no advantage in announcing a cancellation of a flop either. There I agree, but it is not because of the potential impact on the premiere of T4. They could announce next week the series finale, if the episode was worth the hype, and in 2 months it would have no influence in the T4 premiere.
“I know a lot of smart people who watch reality shows. I just don’t understand why.”
The only ones I watch: The Biggest Loser, Hell’s Kitchen, Survivor, and Wife Swap. Basically, I havent watched any ones that started recently.
Obviously I can only speak for myself but I would have preferred that FOX had announced their decision when they made it. At least then I could have enjoyed the series for what it was instead of for what I thought it could become (part of the fun for BSG fans was speculating about where the series was headed; the same is true for TSCC fans). It took me an hour to get over the Arrested Development and Eli Stone cancellations. I put TSCC at about 45 minutes (and I love the show, but it’s just a freaking TV show). On the other hand, if Idol were canceled I’d be celebrating for quite a while.
Well – I like both Sarah & Dollhouse – will miss them both if and when cancelled…going to enjoy the new T-4 trailer next friday night during Sarah finale!
Actually Hell’s Kitchen I can understand.
Basically, I havent watched any ones that started recently.
You and everyone else. There was a B&C article posted here a few weeks ago that talked about how no one is watching any new reality.
I agree with Robert that at this point, the quality of the TSCC shows is irrelevant to the ratings. The bleeding has become terminal. Nobody cares any more except the hard core fans – the same fans who cheered the show all season despite its problems, and thus cheered it into oblivion.
And in fact, last night’s episode had so many problems I don’t know where to begin. Basically everything that happened last night could have happened ten to fifteen episodes ago and it might have made sense. To cram it all into one episode was just a desperation move. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Last night’s episode was at best “muddled”, due to all the reveals being crammed in to one night. Much was glossed over or ignored.
The Connors finally get off their ass and find out that Dr. Sherman is dead, and Weaver’s daughter was his patient? That could have happened fifteen episodes ago! This is the problem with the show – the characters have become so STUPID that nobody gives a damn about them any more! They’re not “heroes”, they’re MORONS!
Then the writers off Derek without a by-your-leave? They spend a big segment two weeks ago letting Jesse run for her life AND leave it up in the air as to whether Derek killed her – and then this week he turns a corner and gets a bullet in the head? That isn’t the “shocking” death we were promised – it’s a middle finger from the writers to the fans! It’s incredibly lame writing! It’s pathetic!
The only characters with brains left on the show are Weaver, John Henry, and Cameron. And apparently the notion is that Weaver and John Henry are the GOOD GUYS, and the Connors are MORONS who don’t realize it! This is so pathetic I can’t find the words.
Next week’s episode is already a foregone conclusion. Cameron does her “police station massacre” bit trying to get Sarah out, as disclosed in the WonderCon spoiler clip, she gets brought down – thus fulfilling Josh Friedman’s apparent attempt to screw over EVERY well-liked character in the show! – and at the end John Connor is left alone with no Sarah, no Cameron and no Riley – just like Thomas Dekker’s spoilers a couple months ago said.
Dekker dropped those spoilers because he KNEW the show was dead and gone, and he undoubtedly was pissed about it.
Now we know why Summer Glau was so unhappy at WonderCon about how the show ends up.
It’s almost as if Friedman deliberately burned down the franchise for no reason at all except to prove he could screw up something James Cameron put so much work into. “Let’s see how I can fuck up a wet dream!”
As for Dollhouse, as I predicted last week’s episode didn’t help this week’s, and this week’s was not terribly good. The acting was OK, but I’m beginning to dislike Eliza’s characterization of Echo/Caroline. I’m not sure if it’s because Eliza’s acting is sub-par or if it’s just the character itself. I tend to agree with Alex that it’s hard to get connected to Echo because she really isn’t a character at all. I’ve got more interest in most of the supporting characters than in hers.
I think Whedon made a serious mistake with last week’s episode damaging the characters by trying to make DeWitt funny, and this week’s episode not carrying the overall story arc along. If the show doesn’t get back on track next week, it’s definitely done. Which is another shame along with TSCC since the concept has potential.
Screw dollhouse but TSCC numbers that low? Jeez, last episode was great.
The fact that everyone here is talking just about Dollhouse and TSCC tell you it’s watched alot. Dollhouse and TSCC are great shows and have a lot if viewers. The problem is that everyone I know that watches it is either recording it or downloading it as they are out and about friday nights. I don’t think these ratings reflect that.
The fact that everyone here is talking just about Dollhouse and TSCC tell you it’s watched alot.
No it doesn’t. There is nothing that links number of posts on a blog to viewers.
gazuki1. I love TSCC but I have to agree with Julia. People who love the shows in danger of being canceled are more likely to post here. On the other hand, Ausiello reports that the sets for TSCC have not been struck.
Bill Gorman says: “All the networks are always ‘quiet’ about shows they may cancel/not renew.”
So true. Technically, I think “Girls Club” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls_Club) has only been on hiatus due to Fox reprogramming fall 2002 sweeps with reality specials.
Hiatus for seven years.
And an infinite number of years to follow.
Poor Gretchen Mol. “Life on Mars” makes her for 2 for 2 in canceled series where she is cast as a regularly reoccurring character. At least “Life on Mars” lasted longer than two episodes.
Both Lie to Me and Fringe have about the same ratings, 10-12 mil… And American Idol has 23 mil for Tuesday and Wednesday, and it LEADS INTO Lie to Me or Fringe… It drops 10 mil each time.
In other words, there’s 20 mil people being advertised these two shows right before they air. There’s bound to be 50% of American Idol fans that decide they should go ahead and watch that too… As a result they get so many more fans.
Neither TSCC nor Dollhouse has had lead ins except Dollhouse has had TSCC lead in, which gives them a boost for sure.
TSCC has not statistically bled any viewers at all. It has kept consistent ratings with fluctuations normal to almost any show.
Take a look at the graphs here:
http://terminatorwiki.fox.com/page/Sarah+Connor+Chronicles+Nielsen+Ratings
It’s fairly obvious that if Fox has people with brains, they would realize that the only reason for TSCC’s bad ratings is themselves.
Richard Steven Hack, I recommend you go to a psychiatrist, I’m a huge harsh critic, I criticize lots of shows, but your criticism is just plain insults and bashing, with no basis of reality. In fact, all your arguments are as weak as a house of cards. None of what you say matters to anyone, and yet you continue to post it. None of what you say actually makes sense, because everyone watching TSCC would disagree with you. The show has been slower, that’s your only argument, but it’s a TV show, a serialized one. I bet you were really bored when watching X-Files too then…
Richard Steven Hack. Dekker said (or implied) that Cameron is going down? Can you tell me where you read that (a web site would do; I can find the link from there). I’d appreciate it.
The DVR ratings for Dollhouse and TSCC are high. And the only reason that TSCC hasn’t been cancelled is because there is hope that the new Terminator Salavation movie premier in May could boost the ratings.
This is what TV.com wrote about both shows on their future prospects
Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles
Fox absolutely loves Terminator… but Fox also absolutely hates poor ratings. However, Terminator has one great thing going for it–McG’s Terminator: Salvation opens in theaters in May. If it’s a hit, it could restrengthen the brand and give this promising show new life.
Prognosis: It sounds silly to say a TV show’s fate relies on a movie’s performance, but let’s face it–the television industry is as wacky as they come.
Dollhouse
The heavily hyped show from Joss Whedon has fallen on its face in the ratings department (last week’s episode drew less than four million). Despite slight improvement in quality (the “game-changing” episode six was better, but still disappointing), Dollhouse just doesn’t seem to have what it takes to draw an audience, even from faithful Whedonites. There’s a solid foundation for a great show here… can Joss realize its potential?
Prognosis: Not looking good. But if Terminator can squeak out a deal, maybe it will take Dollhouse with it. One positive sign: the DVR stats for the show are great.
Read what is said here about the DVR ratings boost:
http://scifiwire.com/2009/03/dvr-ratings-boost-foxs-sarah-connor-and-dollhouse.php
DVR ratings boost Fox’s Sarah Connor and Dollhouse
Fox’s new Friday night sci-fi block of Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles and Dollhouse has disappointed in the ratings, but the shows are racking up big gains once a full week of DVR viewership gets added into the mix, according to The Hollywood Reporter.
According to Live+7 DVR data, the Dollhouse premiere episode’s rating increased 30 percent after post-premiere-date viewing was included. Dollhouse went from a 2.0 adult demo number to a 2.6.
The show’s lead-in, Terminator, gained even more: 36 percent.
The Terminator and Dollhouse gains are considered very high increases for time-shifted viewing, even for a Friday night
yawn. TSCC’s 18-49 ratings underperforms COPS and America’s Most Wanted even after that magnificent insignificant high % of DVR viewing increase is added. And as has been said 7,311 times already, FOX will announce its lineup before the movie even comes out — so that info is just wrong.
The DVR ratings for Dollhouse and TSCC are high
Not really. Yes, the percentage looks big, but that’s just because their numbers are so abysmally low to begin with.
Robert. Has someone at WB told you TSCC is dead? Or are your yawns based solely on the 18-49 ratings? (7,311? I believe that I’ve seen more yawns than that just in the last 3 wks).
And what do you make of the sets not being struck this long after production stopped? I believe the Gilmore sets were struck immediately after production ceased. Is it common practice to leave sets up this long after production?
TCSS premiere had 7.7 in the demo and 18.36M viewers. During S1 it aired at 9PM after Prison Break, and hardly with no scripted competition due to the writers strike. What more chances does it need?
Mike, I make nothing of the sets still being up because I haven’t seen that they are still up. While I have no reason to believe they are down (I’ve seen only one report of that, but it seemed unreliable), I think it doesn’t matter at all to FOX, which will not renew TSCC. Can I imagine Warner Bros shopping it to Sci Fi and other networks, sure? But there’s no way FOX will keep it.
Robert. Ausiello reported the sets are up. And I think I misunderstood what you’ve been posting. It seemed like you thought the show was dead, not just that Fox wouldn’t renew it.
Jonathan, the ratings the second season were consistently BAD. Fox was considering yanking the show as early as October 1st. It was Fox’s third worst scripted show.
uhh… Johnathan, you are hilarious. If summer Glau told you TSCC was canceled you wouldn’t believe her. and are you still blaming watchmen? gosh, there was a britney spears concert in kenya last night… that must have been why the ratings didnt skyrocket.
I also gotta love your generalized attacks on everyone who dosent agree with you.. especially RSH.
10 years from now you’ll still be saying “fox never officially canceled it! it could come back!”
I did like last nights episode though…
oh and i forgot, your graph you referenced only shows a fall from glory:
~11 to 1.5
and you were saying about how it was a stable show?
Ausiello rumors are very often correct, but his info is wrong a fair bit too. I do think the show is dead unless the CW changes its focus between now and late May (and given the shows it already renewed, that’s not likely at all) there is no way that they will take it. I don’t see SciFi wanting to pick up a show that had very bad ratings (even with DVR included) on a broadcast network. Is it possible that WB will make it so cheap someone will take it? Sure, but I can’t come up with a reason why it would do that. It wasn’t a huge DVD hit.
Robert. If it was 200,000 DVD sales for a 9 episode season that’s actually pretty good.
Not really, because it was priced much lower due to fewer episodes. Put it like this: TSCC was only in the top DVD charts for 2 weeks after its release before falling off the top 30 selling almost 100,000 units at an average price of ~$18.90. Supernatural sold 105,000 units in its first week at an average price of about $40, and was on the the top 30 chart for 3 weeks selling over 180,000 units at an average price of $38.99
Smallville stayed in the top 30 four weeks after release selling 337,000 units at $38.99.
Robert. I agree that Fox is extremely unlikely to pick up either Dollhouse or TSCC. But I also think WB will do what it can to find it a new home elsewhere. I can’t see how the big T4 tie in this week can possibly be intended to boost T4 box office. Nearly everyone who watches the series will buy a ticket for the movie, many multiple times. On the other hand, if WB is trying to sell the series elsewhere, it makes perfect sense to try to give TSCC as large an audience for the finale as possible.
Much like when the Watchmen debuted, it looks like the Fast and Furious’ $30 million at the box office took a bite out of TSCC and Dollhouse. They are both in pretty deep trouble.
I’m not following your logic. its finale will air on Friday at 8pm. it’s going to get the audience it gets. will a trailer on a friday night boost the ratings significantly? we’ll see in less than a week.
I think the show is doomed. Here’s how I think it will play out:
1. on or before May 18 Fox announces next year’s schedule, and Terminator isn’t on it
2. Fox will not announce it canceled the show, it just won’t be on the schedule
3. Warner Brothers will make no announcement that another network has picked the show up prior to the release of Salvation on 5/21.
4. Fans will say the movie will do great and someone will pick it up after a blockbuster opening
5. we’ll wait
I give up. I just went to the-numbers.com and wasted more than half an hour trying to figure out where the TV DVD sales figures are. No luck. Where are they located on the site?
Fox ensured its failure by putting it on Fridays from the start. There was just no chance that it could find the right audience aside from the Joss fans.
Lisa, they are located in a variety of places and it requires quite a bit of digging. you’re on your own
Sigh. I know you are probably right about the cancellations, these numbers are terrible. But I admit I am the target audience for both TSCC and Dollhouse and I like both shows (although for a while I was ready to give up on TSCC.)
So throw me a bone
Dollhouse can’t go to SyFy (stupid re-branding) because of the talent holding contract, right? But what about TSCC? With the movie coming out in May is there any chance that this will happen?
Robert. I’m sorry but that’s hardly a fair comparison: A full season (22 episodes) compared to a nine episode show in it’s first season. Take a look at the numbers for Chuck (13 episodes – first season. I know it may be cancelled but it’s ratings are far higher than Smallville’s).
LOL @ TS…
If Bit Torrents are indeed predictive of DVD sales, TSCC should do extremely well this year.
Lisa
You can look at weekly DVD sales. I just started randomly clicked previous or next depending on what I was trying to find (look up the release date first).
http://www.the-numbers.com/dvd/charts/weekly/2008/20080824.php
august 8, 2008
gazuki1, I just read the tv.com post you linked earlier. Other than their ranking from 1-10 the order of which I don’t understand, the shows in their Top 10 Most Intriguing Shows in Danger all make at least some sense. And the adjective “Intriguing” can make the list mean almost anything.
Our Renew/Cancel Index would divide them as follows:
Dead:
Knight Rider
In the Motherhood
Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles
Kings
In Significant Danger:
Castle
Dollhouse
Reaper
In Some Danger:
Chuck
My Name is Earl
Without A Trace/Cold Case (which together are one of the ten)
Lisa
Forgot to mention. You can actually go the release directly by manipulating the last 8 digits in the link. For instance, to go to august 31, 2008 change 20080824
to 20080831 (that should have been august 24, 2008 in my last post). Of course, you need to hit the right day of the week, but its still easier than slogging through randomly.
note to Bill, we need two iPhone apps developed:
1. vital signs for shows on the bubble
2. some sort of grasping at straws game for shows with no vitals
DVD sales figures are just estimates. Actual numbers aren’t released. Ever. Unlike record sales, which are actual numbers of units sold. Go figure. It’s pretty annoying, actually.
I’d love to know these numbers. I’d also like to see T:SCC get renewed.
But the non-announcement after May 15th is the most likely outcome.
It just doesn’t seem like Fox is all that interested in the show.
But I’d love a S3.
“Your mission: successfully navigate Sarah Connor through an overwhelming maze of obstacles and land her on the CW or SciFi without being Terminated!”
TFan, I agree, but then again, ratings are just estimates too. But estimates still allow you to establish relative performance.
Robert. You should encourage “straw grasping” since your blog would probably fade away without graspers (and those who come to disparage us).
I do hope that you are able to determine (prior to next season} whether online views, income demographics, time slot, and DVD sales and production costs (to the extent they influence how cheaply a show might be sold to the networks) affect a show’s chances of renewal.
Clearly, renewal should come down to three factors: the cost of the show to the network, the advertising income generated, and the income a network can reasonably expect to generate in a given time slot. If this isn’t the way it works, studio execs are idiots.
I am interested in whether there were any misses (in terms of the renewal cutoff metric) last year (I doubt there were many if any), and if there were which shows they were.
“Your mission: successfully navigate Sarah Connor through an overwhelming maze of obstacles and land her on the CW or SciFi without being Terminated!”
That’s pretty funny (no sarcasm intended).
I’m only asking you about how other factors might affect renewal because it seems that you have knowledge of a lot more information than other people do.
Mike, most of the people visiting our site are either ratings junkies are looking for specific information. Most of our readers never enter comments. Only a very tiny percentage of people comment. We don’t want to exploit graspers by offering false hope, otherwise we’d pimp out all the “save our show” campaigns.
our very simplistic way of looking at renewal prospects in one dimension has been extremely accurate so far. There were no misses last year with one hour scripted dramas that didn’t air on CBS on Friday nights. 30 minute comedies (and perhaps unscripted) are a different story. It’s possible the index might miss on Eleventh Hour this year (it shows it being renewed, I think it could get whacked, but the Index could have the last laugh!).
Outside of strong DVD sales (which didn’t impact anything last year) we haven’t seen any of the other factors supersede the simplistic view. CBS sent out press releases touting Jericho’s online viewing, but…
and just to clarify, in the absolute without taking recent trends into account the Index did have at least one miss last year — it would’ve shown Bionic Woman as being renewed, but given the plummeting it saw after the first few weeks it was not a surprise to us.
Again, other than Ghost Whisperer and Numb3rs on Friday night, there were no hour long scripted dramas that the index had pegged as canceled that were renewed. while TSCC and Dollhouse also are airing on Fridays, the index scores for those shows are much lower than Numb3rs and Ghost Whisperer are (or were last year). In the case of TSCC, there is NO POSSIBLE chance FOX would renew it. Dollhouse looks to be too low to be renewed, but it’s not in as horrible shape, so while I think it’s very, very unlikely for it to be renewed, I wouldn’t yet say there is no possible way.
Robert. Thanks for the info. I do wonder whether the rather amazing growth of Hulu will continue and whether online viewing will ultimately (perhaps soon) have an impact on renewals.
I’m surprised you didn’t miss on FNL, which would have been entirely reasonable given the unusual path it took to get renewed.
a grim season 4 science fiction television, BSG gone, SCC goin =’(, HEROES crap, DH done at least LOST is doing ok =D i miss BSG……
I don’t understand why you keep bringing up the reality VS scripted argument when saying that better ratings don’t matter becuase it costs more. You also say the overall Friday ratings blow. Therefore if you put a scripted show on friday you guarantee low ratings, which even if higher than the competition aren’t high enough becuase of the scripted factor.
It’d like me going to the circus and then complaining about all the CLOWNS around. It makes no sense… kinda’ chicken and the egg if ya get my drift.
I’ve already conceded regarding Fox and TSCC.
FNL would surely have been canceled without the DTV deal, so I didn’t count it as a miss, but yes, it would have missed that, too.
I’ve also conceded Dollhouse, but FNL is coming back (you didn’t include that).
btw, all of last year’s info and the thinking around it is here in a single post:
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/08/27/the-renewcancel-index-our-predictor-of-show-futures/4800
Call DirecTV and say you’ll switch, but only if it picks up Terminator like it did with FNL. I think there’s almost no chance at all that would happen — SciFi strikes me as likelier (and still very unlikely).
thanks.
I wouldn’t switch. I’m not going to lie to them.
not even if they saved TSCC? and you call yourself a fan!
So Moonlight was last year’s TSCC/Dollhouse/Chuck.
I do wish you’d include the Monday night numbers for TSCC in your numbers. I know it still doesn’t make the cutoff but it seems fairer to me.
Remember, I’ve already conceded vis a vis Fox.
like I said it’s just a TV show.
I might switch if they picked up Eli Stone. FNL and Eli: Direct TV would prove itself a force for good in the universe. (don’t worry i already know this isn’t going to happen).
i’m kidding about eli btw. i’d buy the dvd.
Mike, Dekker said that by season’s end, John Connor will not have any of the three women in his life, by which he implied Sarah, Cameron and Riley – as Jesse was not one of the women in his life, even if she was technically plotwise.
I think it’s very unlikely that Cameron comes out of her “police station invasion” next week intact, but anything’s possible. We still have the scene from the spoiler clip where John is lying on top of her, but my guess is that turns into a fair-well scene.
Jonathan’s bashing of me is hilarious. Every criticism I’ve made of the show all season on every site I’ve posted on has been very specific as to the problems cited. The significant difference in pace and content of the last six episodes has clearly been to correct the problems in the first 16, however inadequately. I’d say that speaks for itself.
But as Robert says, it’s too late. Nobody other than hard core fans cares any more. And the hard core fans just can’t comprehend that what they LIKE about the show (other than the generally fine acting and other aspects that as I’ve said all along have been fine) are the reasons the show is bombing, namely the pace, and the focus, and the egregious damaging of the characters in pursuit of a singular obsession of the show runner that had nothing whatever to do with the Terminator franchise at all.
The facts speak for themselves. A TV spinoff of one of the more successful movie franchises in history crashes and burns in less than two seasons. What more needs to be said? There are no excuses.
What Warner Brothers should do now is dump Friedman and the writers, fire everybody except Summer Glau and do a spinoff series called “Cameron” which depicts her as a fully independent AI who wanders around a la “The Hulk” trying to deal with humans while still trying to stop Skynet from existing while being chased by everybody who realizes how valuable such a machine is. The show would run five or ten seasons, garner Emmies (like “The Hulk” did), and would be truer to the franchise than TSCC ever was. They could even have Dekker and Headey pop in now and again just to be pissed on by Cameron after the lousy treatment she got from those characters under Friedman.
Properly handled, it would do Fringe numbers at least. Really well handled, it would do Lost numbers.
How the hell hard can it be to do a Terminator series that makes money? Really! As long as one isn’t a complete idiot!
I doubt any hard core sci fi (firefly, star trek, stargate, bsg, etc) would do numbers sufficient to make the cut on a major network during prime time. Lost, X-Files, Fringe, Supernatural and Smallville are different types of shows. I think that Dollhouse fits well with the second group but it’s not going to make it.
I’m pretty sad to see de DOLLHOUSE go lower,but it is surely done.I don’t understand why LIE TO ME can still hold on…
The only reason Dollhouse might not make it is because it’s on killer fridays and also it hasn’t had enough time to develop its key storyline. There still isn’t any meaninful continuity in the show and it is still lacking the grand mythology that’s always been the center of all Joss weldons shows.
You can say goodbye to Dollhouse and TSCC
just wanna say thanks to whomever posted the link to dvd sales, was good to have look.
@ Alex
reality shows are actually fiction shows that use mostly “real ” people “as” actors
there are no contests, winners are predetermined by producers, and they are scripted and directed just like the fictional shows. they do do a good job though of making it look like it is real instead of a act. american idol and survivor and all of them are totally scripted, the people have there lines written for them.
the writers for these shows dont belong to the screenwriters guild, and part of the recent deal made was for the sag to not try and get these writers unionized.
so reality tv is just fake scripted fictional tv, that most americans believe is real.
as a example in one of the recent survior eps [ yes I do watch it ], I think # 3 or 4, at immunity council jeff held up the cards to show who was voted out, and one of those cards was not held up at the end when they show all voters holding up their cards. so what happened to that card and just who writes these cards…. not the contestants thats for sure. they just hold up what they are given to hold up.
I got hooked on survivor which is the only one of these so called reality shows I watch, but a few seasons back I started to realize it was all fake, but it is still amusing to watch.
I know they won’t do it, but I think it would be a HUGE deal to DirecTV if they help Dollhouse. No other show has so many hardcore fans like a Whedon show and they would probably sign up for DirecTV to see Dollhouse.
@ Richard Steven Hack
Ouch! The synopsis sure seems authentic enough. If it’s real–and it sure looks like it is–come April 10th nobody is going to be able to spin that into a possible third season.
Well, shit. Thanks, RSH, but I know I can use a mouse and I’m pretty sure anyone who wanted to read that post you linked to knows how to use a mouse. We could have cliked on that link if we wanted to.
Try to have some consideration for the people who still want to enjoy the show, even though you clearly hate it, eh?
I don’t clearly hate it and never did hate it. I just don’t like where it went.
And I only dropped the one spoiler. Which isn’t much of a spoiler since a lot of people have predicted it would happen anyway since Friedman is burning down the franchise and screwing over almost all the characters. Summer Glau essentially dropped that spoiler at WonderCon without actually saying it.
Actually, as a poster over at Grace’s site says, it’s a fairly clever piece of writing in that most of the series is wrapped up, but there’s just enough left over to allow “rebooting” it if WB decides the T-4 movie might allow for another Terminator series.
Even Cameron isn’t fully eliminated as the last line of the review shows, but given what else happens I think it’s clear nobody but Dekker and possibly Lena would likely come back in a hypothetical season three or reboot.
What bugs me is that there’s not much there I can even use for fan-fic since the writers have pretty much nailed down their view of everything. So unless I just ignore the last few episodes, I can’t write my fan-fic the way I think the show should have gone.
I’m going to have to reread the show and then see the final episode before I can identify what’s all wrong with it, but I can see some major problems already. I won’t discuss them here, I’m discussing them over at the official wiki – where a lot of fans are not happy either because they refuse to believe the spoiler is true or because they don’t like how the finale is done.
John on the reality TV front to a degree you’re right but on others you’re wrong.
Shows like American Idol are not overtly scripted with contestants or even judges being told what to say, what happens is that the producers will often ‘coach’ contestants to act in a certain way and tell a particular story. Its also worth pointing out that on a show like Idol only a tiny number of the people who actually audition will sing in front of the judges. Producers and researchers spend months weeding through auditions tapes/forms and inviting select people to sing in front of the judges, whilst the open auditions are largely made up of producers just picking people out of the crowd to sing in front of the judges.
The majority of the people who audition for Idol audition for producers and then its decided whether they’ll sing for the judges depending on if they’ll make good television – that’s part of why so many people who get rejected by the judges have a hard time believing it because they audition for the producers who build up their confidence and coach a certain kind of performance out of them and then they get shot down.
Meanwhile shows like Hells Kitchen live and die entirely upon their casting of contestants but again the producers will often spend a lot of time ‘coaching’ contestants to behave in a certain way. They also only need a few minutes of footage of any given person being a complete dick to make them look like a complete dick. One of the tricks shows like Hells Kitchen and The Apprentice use is that they essentially put contestants in a pressure cooker. They get very little sleep and they’re constantly being forced to do something and fight for their survival etc. and when you do that people start to break. They cry much easier than they normally would and they get angrier much quicker than they usually would.
On the subject of TSCC and the T4 trailer – weren’t there rumours a while ago that this was part of the deal WB struck with Fox to keep the show on air? A you keep the show on air and we’ll buy up ad time on the network to promote T4 (and other projects)?
“What bugs me is that there’s not much there I can even use for fan-fic since the writers have pretty much nailed down their view of everything. So unless I just ignore the last few episodes, I can’t write my fan-fic the way I think the show should have gone.”
Oh plz really.. and you know beware spoilers maybe in your post? You don’t have to ruin it for everyone just because your not happy.
My God americans are fucking idiots. Ghost Whisperer? Really? That’s the show beating TSCC? What kind of moron watches that trash?
As much as I love Dollhouse, I think its been clear for a while now that it will not get renewed.
Its doomed from the start after putting it in a friday night time slot.
Just wanted to note that Howie Do It, in addition to being a cheap reality show, also has the same advantage as Flashpoint, it is cost-shared with a Canadian network. Originally HDI was picked up by GlobalTV and then NBC jumped on shortly after.
@John Henry
So, if I like chocolate ice dream and you like strawberry, I’m a moron and an idiot because I don’t like the same thing as you? I think Ghost Whisperer is a sweet show, and, although I’ve only seen a handful of episodes, I’d choose to watch it over TSCC any day. I have never seen an episode of TSCC because I don’t care for the genre.
And I daresay my IQ is at least as high as yours. Probably higher, because I’m smart enough to realize that one’s like or dislike of a television show is a matter of individual taste, not intelligence!
I skimmed the summary and I’m not sure if I believe it. If Cameron came back without John’s permission, and Jesse knew it, then why didn’t Jesse just tell John or Sarah that, instead of setting Riley up to die?
Mal says:
“Oh plz really.. and you know beware spoilers maybe in your post? You don’t have to ruin it for everyone just because your not happy.”
It interferes with his FAN-FIC, man. Nothing takes precedence over a 60-year-old’s FAN-FIC, except perhaps interminable exegetical attempts to demonstrate just why it is wholly unacceptable that said FAN-FIC is being estranged from its proper position, which of course is to rule the universe with an iron fist.
John Henry, I don’t think people watch Ghostwhisperer for the story, It’s that JL-H is more “gifted” than the female casts of TSCC or Dollhouse. Nothing that implants couldn’t solve, but now it’s to late for both shows.
i miss so much dark angel point pleasant firefly tru calling and next dollhouse!! why fox has to destroy any pretty fantasy show? hey fox, wake up!! american idol won’t last forever! you must keep close your shows!! house is bleeding: it lost 1/3 of its audience from last year. 24 is living because has a good lead-in. fringe will return tuesday after 2 month hiatus. and it hadn’t good numbers before it left. prison break is one, till death is gone, terminator is gone. what the hell will you put on next fall?? all new series?? you know there is no american idol as lead-in until january?? im not joking, next fall the cw will rules in the demo.
Friday’s episode of Dollhouse was great sc-fi. Really thought provoking stuff. If it does get canceled I hope they area allowed to do a final episode. This is the type of show that needs one if they have any chance to sell the repeats down the road. Friday ratings for all shows are almost non exsistant except for Ghost Whisperer. The networks would be better off selling infomercial time.
chuck
S: JL-H’s humps are going down on the ground, and she is just 3 year older than eliza dushku. im a girl too, but are you really saying aliza and summer are not hot?? this is a blasphemy
lol so you say house is tanking, but its a “good” lead in for 24
never minds the fact that the entire second season of TSCC has had as meany viewers as 4-5 eps of house
No, Lisa, I am not, the Friday viewers are, choosing GS over the all the other Friday shows. I have no personal opinion on the subject. Translated: I fail to see how any of them are hot.
bhè, 12 milion for a show are good, but 12 milion for house that used to get 18 last year: i think its bleeding
its still doing good at 12 million is still good but the key is the demo witch is at like a 4.1 or something
The demo for House is closer to 5, I believe. The difference between this year and last is that it doesn’t have Idol as a lead-in. Yes, it’s dropped, but it’s still one of the strongest scripted shows on TV.
” DH done ”
I’m not just saying this to the person that posted this, I’m saying it to everyone. DH is Desperate Housewives, not Dollhouse. Dollhouse is Dollhouse. Simple as that!
I’m a hardcore Whedon fan and I have to say I’m extremely disappointed in Dollhouse. I still want it to succeed because I think there’s something worth it buried deep in there. But even the much-hyped “Awakening” episode didn’t really connect with me or make me feel anything provocative. Perhaps it was because it seemed like this was supposed to be something that could alter the paradigm but did absolutely nothing of the sort.
Richard, you do make a good point. How can someone screw up a show based on an extremely popular sci-fi/action franchise? The only answer I can find is the Sarah arc they did at mid-season…
Richard Steven Hack
If the show ends in the way laid out in the spoiler, not bringing Cameron (Summer) back (if someone picks up TSCC) would be utterly ridiculous.
Can someone please name a sci-fi/action series that was a network prime time ratings success.
recently Heroes, at least for a while and Lost, if you classify it as SciFi.
Mike, your definition of sci-fi seems to specifically include “was not a ratings success” so therefore there is no way to satisfy you in that regard.
Julia
I don’t understand what you’re saying. Heroes is a fantasy as is Lost.
Do these ratings and numbers also account for viewers on Hulu and iTunes watching Dollhouse? I’ve been watching Dollhouse every week on Hulu and agree with majority of the reviews that praise the show and enjoy it.
If the ratings don’t account for the Internet viewers, then this rating system is flawed. After all, why watch TV when you have Hulu, iTunes, and Netflix?
Thanks.
This is especially true of Heroes. To be scifi, there has to at least be a teensy bit of science. Heroes doesn’t have any (Heroes genetics is not genetics at all; there is no relationship; I am a molecular geneticist btw).
Julia.
Please explain.
Mike, BSG is a fantasy, too then.
Xanthus, The numbers in this post do not include online viewing, but online viewing is counted. However, since the network makes very little money from online viewing even from the top online shows, it doesn’t count for much in renewal decisions.
Robert. I more or less agree with you.
At least with regard to the “skin jobs”, which after all were the meat of the series. There are elements that have an underlying scietific basis though. Heroes has none.
Thanks for the info, Holly!
The time travel element of Lost is interesting. I’d call that sci fi. Not much of it until this season though (a little last yr).
To Holly’s point the numbers do not include online info. Online info data is not provided on a universal basis, with data for all shows. There is some monthly reporting but no direct measurement on a per show basis.
These are merely Nielsen overnight TV ratings, I suspect that’s all the overnight reports will ever be. I could see some migration to some weekly reporting of online information on a by show basis, but even that could be years away. Getting all of that into a consolidated overnight report that is FREELY available might never happen.
Last year’s Bionic Woman was sci fi.
Mike, maybe I am confusing you with another commentor, but someone listed every successful sci-fi show and said none of them are “real” sci-fi.
Xanthus: Glad you agree with the reviews that agree with you. Are you reading the ones that say it’s not that good?
likely me. (successful sci fi/action is what I’m looking for. the successful shows listed are science fantasies more dependent on fantasy (or the paranormal) than science.
Sci fi should include at least one, preferably more than one, of the following at its core:
A.I., robots or cyborgs, space travel, time travel, aliens
Action/adventure should include the following as a core elements:
chases, fights, explosions, gun battles
Tell me what makes those shows I listed sci fi/action. To be sci fi rather than fantasy the way these things are presented cannot be utterly impossible. (the “genetics” in Heroes – utterly impossible).
Faster than light travel = utterly impossible (at least if you want the characters to live!). Space travel that involves faster than light travel = utterly impossible, based on science.
Concocting a mechanism for traveling faster than the speed of light is not any less ridiculous in reality than the genetics in Heroes, it’s just doesn’t offend your sensibilities as much. Moving an island through time by the turn of a wheel is perhaps more ridiculous than both, but it’s a TV show.
It’s fine to have your own personal preferences for what you prefer (they are after all, your preferences!). But another thing you will find utterly impossible is succeeding in convincing the masses that whole genres should be classified based on your preferences and specifications.
Mike your definition of what sci-fi is, is incredibly narrow when in reality it’s a huge genre.
Sci-fi does not need to include one of AI, robots, cyborgs, aliens, space travel or time travel those are a tiny handful of plot devices that can make a show sci-fi. Whether or not the science is especially realistic or makes sense (and its neither in the case of Heroes) Heroes is most certainly a sci-fi show. The same can be said for Chuck, the science isn’t good but its there and thus sci-fi. It isn’t a prerequisite of the sci-fi that the science be realistic that’s just what you want.
Of course if I remember right you were also the person who argued that Fringe wasn’t sci-fi so this post will likely be lost on you.
You discounted X-Files, but X-Files had aliens and chases, and I recall guns as well.
I think The X-Files even had robots and time travel in a couple of episodes. And explosions.
Alex. There is science fiction and science fantasy. I never even thought of Chuck as being Sci Fi or even Sci Fantasy (although clearly it can be considered Sci Fantasy). I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Julia. X-Files does have aliens and guns. Would you call it action/adventure? I wouldn’t but if you would I won’t argue the point.
Alex says:
“Whether or not the science is especially realistic or makes sense (and its neither in the case of Heroes) Heroes is most certainly a sci-fi show.”
Oh, tish-tosh. By this measure, “The Exorcist” was not only “science fiction,” but more coherent science fiction than Heroes.
Where was the science in The Exorcist? Did I sleep through that part of the film?
And Mike you understand what the word fiction means, right?
“robots and time travel in a couple of episodes. And explosions.”
I do think I said core elements. I don’t recall the robots or time travel but you’re probably right. When I think of X-Files, I think of a detective show about the paranormal.
I found it interesting and occasionally frustrating that Sculley asserted certain things to be scientific facts that are in fact not.
do you understand the word science – historical fiction actually includes actual history or at least an interpretation of actual history.
Mike/Alex, please take that discussion elsewhere, thanks.
saved by the bell!
“do you understand the word science – historical fiction actually includes actual history or at least an interpretation of actual history.”
And interpretations that aren’t factual still make up a huge bulk of historical fiction, because its historical fiction not fact. Just as the genre is science fiction and not science fact. As I said a prerequisite of being classed as sci-fi isn’t accurate science and if it were then Dollhouse and Terminator absolutely wouldn’t be included in anyway shape or form since neither have much more than a passing relationship with scientific fact.
The fact that your personal preference is for sci-fi that’s realistic is fine but for better or worse that’s not how the genre stands.
Damn it!
Apologises Robert, writing my last response before you made your post.
Alex. Just acknowledging your post. Robert asked us to stop.
Hey, at least you get the last word, Alex.
mike you cant set your own rules on what is/isn’t sci-fi and expect everyone else to agree. what you see as sci-fi is fine but not every is gonna see it the same way.
for me personaly i group anything as sci-fi that is impossible in real life with regards to a t.v show.
That means I win, right?
It’s the internets. I’ll let you interpret that as you want.
Alex says:
“Where was the science in The Exorcist? Did I sleep through that part of the film?”
The “alternate reality” of the “demonic realm” was finally inferred by the failure of medicine to explain Regan’s symptoms. If Heroes is assumed to be science fiction positively predicated on “medicine,” The Exorcist can surely be said to be the same but turned upside-down. In the latter, one at least has scientific falsification of a hypothesis to drive the severely implausible events that are the bread and butter of the gig.
The demon could levitate, create extreme cold, speak in tongues (cue Micah), and I forget what else. The one is as fantastic as the other, perhaps with holy water being less absurd than a magical genetic potion.
or not…
Whoops.
Even at the risk of incurring Robert’s wrath I have to ask this, Boris did you just argue that because science/medicine wasn’t (or couldn’t be) used to explain demonic possession in The Exorcist it’s science fiction?
And to taint this post with a Friday ratings point so its not completely off topic let me ask this, what are people actually watching on Friday? I get that cable has a bigger share of the television audience on Fridays but is there a particular cable channel(s) that actually post significant increase on Fridays? Or do they just have the bigger share because their audience is consistent throughout the week and broadcast audience drops?
Alex, right now I would guess the latter, since most of the original Friday cable shows are over.
Alex. Don’t think that’s what Boris was saying. Think we should drop this.
Is there no data available to determine whether the cable audience is consistent throughout the week?
We don’t get cable network average numbers by night, but for the week of 3/23, here are the top cable shows from that Friday evening. Excuse the terrible formatting.
Program Net Time AA000
SPONGEBOB THE MOVIE NICK 06:00P-08:00P 4,322
NCIS USA 07:00P-08:00P 4,084
ICARLY NICK 08:00P-08:30P 3,367
THE OREILLY FACTOR FOXN 08:00P-09:00P 3,239
SPONGEBOB NICK 05:30P-06:00P 3,212
SUITE LIFE ON DECK DSNY 08:00P-08:30P 3,165
BEN 10: ALIEN FORCE TOON 09:00P-10:00P 2,884
HOUSE USA 08:00P-09:00P 2,875
SPONGEBOB NICK 05:00P-05:30P 2,838
SPONGEBOB NICK 09:30P-10:00P 2,742
TRUE JACKSON, VP NICK 08:30P-09:00P 2,741
HANNITY FOXN 09:00P-10:00P 2,724
NCIS USA 06:00P-07:00P 2,714
GEORGE LOPEZ NAN 10:30P-11:00P 2,681
ICARLY NICK 09:00P-09:30P 2,673
PHINEAS AND FERB DSNY 08:30P-09:00P 2,665
WENDY WU: HOMECOMING WA DSNY 09:00P-10:40P 2,589
GEORGE LOPEZ NAN 10:00P-10:30P 2,575
Mike, we do see HUT/PUT (households watching television/people watching television numbers) typically on a seasonal or monthly basis. I don’t know if with what we see if that calculation is even possible. But it’s likely someone has the data on average cable network viewing by day.
Bill
How do the numbers for NCIS (or House) compare to Mon – Thur.?
And thanks for the info.
I may have misunderstood your original post. I’m not sure.
Can you compare Fri. numbers for those shows to numbers for the rest of the week?
(sorry if there’s a cross post)
We see the HUT/PUT info on a NIGHTLY basis, but we don’t see any automatic tabulations breaking out share by cable, broadcast, local independents, PBS, etc.
Bill, Mike needs to do his own research and start his own blog, please don’t do any work on his behalf.
we are not your ratings monkeys.
LOL!
It wouldn’t even take much effort for Mike to find the info himself. Just click Cable Top 20 up at the top.
mmmm…just a question, not a demand or expectation.
thanks Julia
I respond to comments when interested, never out of obligation.
Just from scanning the various cable numbers posted across the site it looks as if the cable audience is just more consistent throughout the week than network television, which would suggest that people who traditionally watch broadcast just aren’t interested in what the networks programme Friday nights. Of course the only way to really tell if that’s the case or not is for one of the networks to put a hit on Friday and see what it does and that’s not going to happen anytime soon.
that was easy. just didn’t know where to look. great! and thanks again.
Bill
Of course.
“We see the HUT/PUT info on a NIGHTLY basis” Indeed we do, I am so behind the times!
Bill, I am just managing expectations and I deliberately want to disappoint Mike early and right now so he is not disappointed later when I will not provide that level detail in the weekly cable posts.
Robert. I’m hardly disappointed when my questions aren’t answered here.
Alex, if I could control the world for five minutes, I’d put Idol, Greys and NCIS on a Friday (at 8, 9 and 10) just for like a week, and see what sort of numbers they could get. It would be an interesting experiment.
It’s too bad that it’s not like the web where experimenting is easy and INEXPENSIVE. But in fantasy league TV, I’d go so far as sticking American Idol on Saturday just to what would happen. I expect it would perform better than the NCAA semifinals.
Models of Competitive Television Ratings
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3150528
possibly of interest to some (maybe not).
It would be interesting to see what the networks could do with Friday and Saturday if they stopped treating them like deadzones – damn television for being so expensive!
If CBS were having financial success to match its ratings success this season then I could see them at least thinking about putting something more competitive on Saturday next year just so they don’t have to cancel shows that are still performing relatively well. Unfortunately that’s potentially a very expensive experiment that CBS can’t afford to fund. Maybe Fox can get a super cheap deal on Terminator and stick TSCC and ‘Til Death on Saturday nights as some super-mega cheap programming block? Of course now I’ve opened up a whole new Terminator is going to be saved can of worms haven’t I…
“Dollhouse” is awesome and Friday’s episode rocked! I can’t believe that it’s dropped so low, and so has “T:TSCC” when I’m gigantic fans of both.
However, I’m going to be optimistic. “Supernatural” is on its fourth season and has been renewed for a fifth and on average it has less ratings then these shows. Mind you, it’s broadcast by a different channel.
Dollhouse might get a better lead-in in Prison Break! TSCC is gone for god however.
Dollhouse might get a better lead-in in Prison Break! TSCC is gone for good however.
Are people really expecting Prison Break to be a much improved lead-in or really make much difference to Dollhouse? What was PB doing before it got shipped to Friday’s? I honestly can’t remember…
Never mind I just looked it up!
The last three episodes of Prison Break that aired on Monday at 9
December 22: 1.9 (18-49), 1.9 (18-34)
December 15: 2.3 (18-49), 2.1 (18-34)
December 8: 2.1 (18-49), 2.2 (18-34)
You compare that to what TSCC did on December 15 and 8 (a House repeat aired December 22)
December 15: 2.0 (18-49), 1.6 (18-34)
December 8: 1.9 (18-49), 1.6 (18-34)
I’m not really seeing this as a big improvement on the TSCC lead-in, maybe up a tenth or two.
What kills me is that Dollhouse has soooo much potential. They have an interesting idea, that with proper nurturing could turn into a good show. I also look at the quality, rather than numbers, but right now it can’t even be saved based on quality. The writers/ actors really need to gain more confidence and give their all so that they can save the show.
alex, i am totally with you on this one. moving to friday night and a lower hut level, i think it will be an accomplishment if prison break can average higher than a 1.8
Methods of Measuring TV and
and Cable Use (2003)
Diaries–users write down their use
— requires literacy
— viewers must remember to complete
— more likely to be completed by women
Use Recorder–electronically records use
—does not record actual viewing
—does not record who views
People Meter–electronic recording plus individual sign in
— high sample refusal rate (50% in US)
— men or more likely to record use than women
— younger, high TV users are more likely to record us
Michael: “If Cameron came back without John’s permission, and Jesse knew it, then why didn’t Jesse just tell John or Sarah that, instead of setting Riley up to die?”
Nobody ever accused the writers at TSCC of being consistent. They’ve made major blunders like that before.
The reality is I suspect that they really did NOT have a clear plan for the season and once they were told last fall that the show was dead if they didn’t liven it up, they crammed all this stuff in toward the end.
Another example of a blunder: Sarah has a transmitter implanted in her – before Winston was ordered to kill her? Why implant a transmitter in someone you’re going to kill anyway?
They’ve done this stuff all season because they’re not good at thinking things through. The problem with that is that the audience of hard core fans IS good at thinking things through and they spot this stuff, which then makes it harder to enjoy the show.
As I’ve said before, if you’re going to produce a show which requires some thinking, you’d better do better thinking than your audience, at least as much as is possible. TSCC doesn’t.
If Dullhouse was any good it wouldn’t be in that time slot. Why would Fox do something stupid and move it to a prime timeslot and kill their ratings there? Then again, they did hire the crappy writers on Dullhouse so anything is possible I guess.
anna, who’s to say the writers/actors aren’t already giving it their all. I’m betting thy are and they just SUCK.
“Man On the Street”, Dollhouse’s sixth episode, should have been the pilot; it is insane to ask viewers to wait five weeks for a show to become a “game changer”. What planet does Fox/Whedon live on? Then to place it behind another show with even lower ratings on a night that is known for being one of the least watched. It never really stood a chance.
Perhaps Whedon always knew this; you don’t call the final episode “Epitah” if you think you’ve got a winner.
Bye bye Dollhouse, hardly even knew ya.
I believe the last episode is called “Epitaph One” not that it really matters.
@ Mike
The gender bias you mention as disadvantages for various ratings methods aren’t necessarily disadvantages. Assuming the appropriate research was done in advance, it’s just a matter of weighting the responses to achieve the necessary numbers.
Rough example: If it is known that 25% of women actually log their viewing and only 20% of men log theirs, then each woman represents four women and each man represents five men. With a sufficiently large sample size, the results should still be representative of a larger population.
““Man On the Street”, Dollhouse’s sixth episode, should have been the pilot; it is insane to ask viewers to wait five weeks for a show to become a “game changer”. What planet does Fox/Whedon live on?”
They live on the planet where you can’t produce Man on the Street without the five episodes that went before it and in reality I don’t think you can. Whilst you don’t strictly speaking need the five episodes that went before Man on the Street for that episode to work you need something before it. That’s not a pilot. Ideas within it are pilot-like but the episode itself wasn’t.
As I said previously the real problem Dollhouse has is that they focused far too quickly on Echo and the Dollhouse. They should have spent the first half of the season with the unconvincing (ex)FBI agent and make him a rounded and likeable character. Establish his motives are and what’s driving him. You make him the constant of the series and the driving force his desire to find out who Echo is and bring down the Dollhouse that way the audience has something and someone to care about. When you’ve got that you can move into the Dollhouse a little more.
I’m not sure I believe this myself but Nick C, Michael Hinman over at Airlock Alpha is reporting at Airlock Alpha (Syfy Portal) is reporting that Fox is considering renewing Dollhouse for a 2nd season and giving it a new night. I’m truly puzzled by this statement. Why would they do this despite such bad ratings? Here’s the facctors he lists. Perhaps it’s in line with Kevin Reilly’s other moves at NBC, when he helped saved 30 Rock, The Office and Friday Night Lights despite abysmal ratings. I just don’t know about this. TSCC is canceled though as it is owned by WB, not Fox.
http://www.airlockalpha.com/news426236.html
“The audience for “Dollhouse” are not exactly where Fox had hoped they would be, however, critical reaction to later episodes following its February premiere has grown more positive toward the series as it has had the chance to flesh itself out. Showrunner Joss Whedon had said ahead of its premiere that he had gone back to retool certain aspects of the show, including using a new premiere episode than what was originally planned, eventually canning what would have been the premiere.”
“Other factors in favor of the show continuing is that it’s not as expensive as other Fox shows. Much of its upfront costs, including the construction of the elaborate set that is the dollhouse itself, were covered by funds that normally would’ve paid for a pilot (no pilot was made for “Dollhouse”). Also, while Whedon’s Mutant Enemy Productions and star Eliza Dushku’s Boston Diva Productions are tied to the series, 20th Century Fox Television is still the primary production company involved, which means its licensing fee is not as steep as it would be if the show was produced by another studio.”
“
I apologize for the misspellings and again, I don’t know whether to trust this info or not. But, it wouldn’t surprise me, knowing Kevin Reilly’s track record. If he thinks it might do better on another night, then maybe he’ll rnew it despite the ratings. Next 4 episodes will tell the truth.
There are rumors that FOX wants to maintain a show of their Fridays line-up and give it a change on another night. There are also rumors about TSCC being dead. So…
“I’m not sure I believe this myself but Nick C, Michael Hinman over at Airlock Alpha”
Are you suggesting Hinman is Nick C?
We all know that Dollhouse right now is in a deep coma and on life support. The question is how long is Fox going to keep the machines running, and do they believe in miracles.
Right now the show aired the 3rd of the Whedon episodes, and there is still no up tick. People didn’t like the network take on the show, they don’t seem to like the Whedon vision for the show, does it make any sense to keep it on?
But, the critics are now liking the later episodes. So, therefore, the series is earning the critical acclaim that Kevin Reilly likes. And no, I’m not implying that Nick C is Michael Hinman. I just want his take on Michael Hinman’s article.
S I’m in not doubt that Dollhouse will finish its run this season – Fox aren’t going to pull it. Whether or not it gets a second season is another issue completely.
“Are you suggesting Hinman is Nick C?”
No he was directing the post at Nick C because he’d like his thoughts on the report that was posted.
hmmm…new rumors Fox is keeping Dollhouse and moving it to a new night…I guess the May announcements will tell all…what day does FOX make it’s scheduled announcement for ‘09-’10 season?
The Fox upfronts are Monday May 18.
Just six weeks until we know for sure what they’re doing.
Its going to be a long six weeks.
Is the decline in total viewers in this friday related with the movie Fast and furious; because ” ‘Fast & Furious’ shatters box office records”:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Movies/04/05/boxoffice.ew/index.html?section=cnn_latest
hagi, the moon’s phase has much more to do with it. Last Friday it was 68.3% illuminated.
Hagi, it’s hard to say, I looked at the HUT/PUT levels for Friday April 3rd and Friday March 27, and overall viewing households were down about 4% week over week. But some of that can be attributed to NCAA basketball being on the week before.
At 9pm, 18-49 viewing was down around 6% from the prior week, but some of that too can likely be attributed to basketball. Looking at only four weeks of HUT/PU data for Fridays, it’s hard to make any definitive claims as there is always something (basketball, movies, and week to week differences of less than 10% may just as likely attributed to the air!)
Short answer: I dunno.
TVByTheNumbers, an educational resource as well as ratings information.
I wonder why Robert isn’t responding to several of the posts in this thread with “Okay, we get it.” It’s only filled with a couple hundred sentiments similar to the one I posted, what, 4 times? Not to mention a tacky slur. I guess I get preferential treatment for not being a bigot. Silly me.
Mind you, after wading through all 377+ comments — the bulk of which are about 2 shows that have more comments than viewers — “Okay, we get it” sums it up nicely. So I will instead talk positively about 1 show that I believe has gotten 2 whopping mentions in this thread prior to this. “Flashpoint” just earned its renewal. Won its time slot, #1 show of the night in several measures, and the first show in a few years to build on “Ghost Whisperer.” All that AND it’s subsidized by the Canadians. Take that, Trey Parker!
Riff, After a while, you just start to skim. Sadly, there is no wordpress plug-in for controlling the internets short of just turning comments off. I missed the tacky slur, but will go find it in remove it!
It’s a fair point. Though I’m not surprised over the obsession on the FOX shows, I am surprised there isn’t more love for Flashpoint and Ghost Whisperer (though GW was a rerun on Friday and Flashpoint wasn’t, so Flashpoint building on its lead-in was probably expected).
And theoretically, at least, Numb3rs ought to be the most popular show on this blog!
Dollhouse is done and gone!
TSCC was good but its been really bad the past few weeks and some people probably gave up on it. If they had episodes even a fraction as good as this weeks they wouldn’t be worrying about cancellation
Looks like there’s been some action here since Monday. Is it possible to get the Live+7 numbers? If not from here, can someone direct me to where I can find them?
Oops, I didn’t mean Live+7, I know that comes out in teh DVR Ratings section when the information is available. I mean the 18-34 numbers.
Do anyone have final numbers of this Friday?
Hagi (viewers, 18-49 finals) TSSC: 3.469M, 1.3/5 Dollhouse: 3.435M, 1.5/5
thanks
Lie to Me is the best show (aside from idol, of course) on FOX. The show is so interesting. When i first saw the trailer, i thought ehhh, but it was the premise that got me to watch it, and now it’s like my crack. The show is very deserving of a pre-idol timeslot. It is the best show on FOX, Dollhouse is done, and Smackdown could bring in good ratings for foc, but MNTV is all Sex and The City reruns, talk shows, news, and reruns of movies. MNTV having Smackdown is huge for them, it’s potentially their best show. Now I watched Help Me Help You, it got cancelled before 1 season ended. I then quickly becmame a Back to You fan, it got put on hiatus and was going to possibly be switched to CBS, but no word since May of ‘08. I am sick and tired of good shows being cancelled, shows like Dollhouse that are doomed, need to go, Ted, though i feel bad for Portia de Rossi, is flailing. So if these network execs are as smart as I hope they are, they will make the right choice and keep Lie to Me. I sincerely hope they do, cancelling Help Me Help You and Back to You were huge mistakes in my opinion, my dad now has a hard time following shows, because every time he does, they getting freaking cancelled. So I hope they keep Lie to Me, and trash the shows that are doomed, and hopelessly flailing. Lie to ME RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think the reason why the Fox shows are discussed more is that they’re more desperate to save their shows, so of course they’re gonna go on internet forums and blogs and such and shout their views in the highest volume available in written form. Whereas us Ghost Whisperer fans, we just visit to be sure that it’s doing well in the ratings, and then when we realize it is, we’re happy, and it’s done. People are their loudest when they’re in anxiety and unhappy, and Dollhouse and Terminator fans and fans of low-rating shows have a lot to be anxious about – their shows might be canceled.
fox hates joss weldon