| Scoreboard |  |
 |
 |
 |
 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rating/Share: Adults 18-49 | 1.8/6 | 1.7/6 | 1.2/4 | 1.1/4 | 0.6/ |
| Total Viewers (million) | 8.72 | 5.65 | 4.30 | 3.33 | 1.43 |
Ok, as of 10:15A PDT, I haven’t seen anything with demo data yet. Ghost Whisperer seems to have done well as usual. Dollhouse averaged a series low 2.99 million viewers, but I’m not sure yet how it performed in the demo. We do know however that FOX averaged a 1.1 among 18-49s between 8pm-10pm so its fair to guess that neither Prison Break or Dollhouse did better than a 1.2. What does this mean? Well, Prison Break was already definitely not coming back. Dollhouse looked like it was certainly not coming back either but maybe, possibly, if the ratings went up, even a little…But they did not.
Update: James Hibberd reports Dollhouse scored a series low 1.2 rating with adults 18-49 while Prison Break did a 1.0. Ghost Whisperer scored a 2.1, though even that was down 16% from its last original airing.
You can compare with previous Friday overnight reports.
Full details:
| Time | Net | Show | 18-49 Rating/Share | Viewers (Millons) |
| 8:00 | CBS | Ghost Whisperer | 2.1/8 | 9.15 |
| ABC | Wife Swap | 1.3/5 | 3.95 | |
| NBC | Howie Do It | 1.0/4 | 3.29 | |
| FOX | Prison Break | 1.0/4 | 3.05 | |
| CW | Everybody Hates Chris | 0.6/3 | 1.79 | |
| 8:30 | CW | The Game | 0.9/3 | 1.89 |
| 9:00 | CBS | Flashpoint | 1.6/5 | 8.18 |
| ABC | 20/20 | 1.5/5 | 5.26 | |
| NBC | Dateline | 1.3/5 | 4.61 | |
| FOX | Dollhouse | 1.2/4 | 2.99 | |
| CW | America’s Next Top Model (R) | 0.5/2 | 1.28 | |
| 10:00 | ABC | 20/20 | 2.2/7 | 7.73 |
| CBS | Numb3rs | 1.8/6 | 8.84 | |
| NBC | Dateline | 1.4/4 | 5.00 |
Shows are sorted by 18-49 rating in each time slot.
Nielsen TV Ratings: ©2009 The Nielsen Company. All Rights Reserved. Source Marc Berman/Mediaweek.
Definitions:
Fast Affiliate Ratings: These first national ratings, including demographics, are available at approximately 11 AM (ET) the day after telecast, and are released to subscribing customers daily. These data, from the National People Meter sample, are strictly time-period information, based on the normal broadcast network feed, and include all programming on the affiliated stations, sometimes including network programming, sometimes not. The figures may include stations that did not air the entire network feed, as well as local news breaks or cutaways for local coverage or other programming. Fast Affiliate ratings are not as useful for live programs and are likely to differ significantly from the final results, because the data reflect normal broadcast feed patterns. For example, with a World Series game, Fast Affiliate Ratings would include whatever aired from 8-11PM on affiliates in the Pacific Time Zone, following the live football game, but not game coverage that begins at 5PM PT. The same would be true of Presidential debates as well as live award shows and breaking news reports.
Rating: Estimated percentage of the universe of TV households (or other specified group) tuned to a program in the average minute. Ratings are expressed as a percent.
Share (of Audience): The percent of households (or persons) using television who are tuned to a specific program, station or network in a specific area at a specific time. (See also, Rating, which represents tuning or viewing as a percent of the entire population being measured.)
Time Shifted Viewing – Program ratings for national sources are produced in three streams of data – Live, Live+Same Day (Live+SD) and Live+7 Day. Time shifted figures account for incremental viewing that takes place with DVRs which are currently in approximately 24.4% of all U.S. TV households. Live+Same Day (Live+SD) include viewing during the same broadcast day as the original telecast, with a cut-off of 3:00AM local time when meters transmit daily viewing to Nielsen for processing. Live+7 Day ratings include incremental viewing that takes place during the 7 days following a telecast.
For more information see Numbers 101.
fail
aww dollhouse :/
it was a very boring episode tonight as well for dollhouse.
I wasn’t surpirsed by the low ratings.
However next weeks looks good =]
go cbs friday nights are great
Sad to hear about the new low for Dollhouse, I guess we will just have to enjoy the final two shows in the upcoming weeks. I did watch Prison Break too, there was a line last night, when the guy at the airport says something like “You will go to prison” and Micheal says, “Which One?” it reminded me how much I liked the first season !!!!
This lineup makes TGIF … I just remember a show I wouldn’t watch on animal tranquilizers, with three bozos and Lori Laughlin and a twin lemur act, and et al … look like Milton Berle,Ernie Kovacs and Lucille Ball. Ugh, ugh, ugh.
Bye, bye, Dollhouse. Thank God I didn´t get too attached cause it´s definitely not coming back. Chuck, on the other hand, still might. Go, Chuck! Go!
NOOOO!!!!
(
Ugh good bye dollhouse u will be missed!
We made it this time to the 6th reply before the first Chuck reference. Might be a new record !!!
Hmm there u go guys TSCC was a better lead in after all.
What a shame for Dollhouse
but maybe just maybe …..
Great news for Ghost Whisperer though, another of my favourite shows.
Would it be crazy to say TSCC might get renewed? i know someone had to say it lol.
Do we still think that there still hope for dollhouse ? ,OR should we already say REST IN PEACE and enjoy the last couple of episodes :S !!!
Well, I’m at least glad that Whedonites will now be forced to stop blaming the crappy ratings for DOLLHOUSE on THE SARAH CONNOR CHRONICLES. As an admirer of *both* shows, I found the constant desire to trash one in order to promote the other rather… distasteful.
That being said… if I had to pick one show to come back next season, it would still be CHUCK!
Doug says:
April 25th, 2009 at 10:26 am
We made it this time to the 6th reply before the first Chuck reference. Might be a new record !!!
I´ll try and be faster next time, Doug. Don´t you worry
By the way, only two posts before I got a reply. Good for you!
Interesting. Dateline in that timeslot used to crush everything else, but ABC went with 20/20 counterprogramming (they usually have Super Nanny there), and it looks like they split the audience, letting Flashpoint take first. But we’ll have to see what happened in the demos.
FOX SUCKS.
Too bad for Dollhouse . Well , I have never watched Dollhouse .This year at home we have only watched cable , networks ,specially CBS ,has the tendency to cancel shows leaving the viewers hanging in there with no closure at all, and I am talking about shows with 7 or 8 million viewers , no 4 millions viewers shows that clearly can not go on. So last season we decided to go cable , and if we feel interested in any network show we would wait to see how it is doing , if it gets renewed , then we will buy the DVD or go Itunes, and if they get canceled then we will only buy the DVD if the story got some closure at the end. I have more things to do than having my family, specially my kids ,feeling like crap for weeks because a network canceled the show we were following leaving us with not ending at all. Still, sad for Dollhouse.
“Well, I’m at least glad that Whedonites will now be forced to stop blaming the crappy ratings for DOLLHOUSE on THE SARAH CONNOR CHRONICLES”
I’ve found all the inventive ways they’ve come up with to say it isn’t the show or Whedon’s fault more interesting than the Dollhouse itself.
Will Joss be able to get a job next season on NBC’s smash mega monster hit new remake “Parenthood?” I mean, he worked on it the first time around. The least Ron Howard and Brian Grazer can do is give the guy some work for all 13 weeks the “new” show will be on.
TSCC wasn’t a bad line-in series after all… Without TSCC Dollhouse has the worst ratings…
I think it may have been a bad promo for dollhouse as well.
as appose to next weeks which is looking uuberrr
“I’ve found all the inventive ways they’ve come up with to say it isn’t the show or Whedon’s fault more interesting than the Dollhouse itself.
As a fan of Joss’s work, I must say I *do* blame him for shopping the series to Fox, knowing full well (given his experience with FIREFLY) the type of network interference it was likely to receive. The show has gotten markedly better, but I think the first half-dozen episodes probably doomed its prospects. DOLLHOUSE would have been a better fit for FX or Sci-Fi if Joss had been willing to give his ego a rest and shop it to cable (where, IMHO, most of the really challenging TV work is happening these days anyway).
T:SCC was an awful lead in, period.
It’s just Prison Break, as an even less popular non-science-fictiony thing is an even worse lead in.
The lead in is not the only cause of Dollhouse’s poor ratings, but to dismiss it altogether is impossible given that Dollhouse has consistently ratings that are within .1 of the lead-in, regardless of which it is.
Bye bye Dollhouse, next week is Chuck
Dollhouse demo: 1.2
Michaela, if that’s the case, then you shouldn’t watch Chuck. That show is about to go belly up whenever NBC issues the press release any time now. It can’t come soon enough.
I’m sad to see Jessica Steen leaving Flashpoint. Her agent Cassidy character
died bravely on NCIS and now another short arc.
http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/04/dollhouse-prison-break-sink.html
Wow, everything sucked last night.
true, but some things sucked a lot worse than others!
They should have flipped TSCC with PB way back when they were airing them on Monday nights.
But I’d like to see the reaction on the FOX exec’s faces when they see these numbers.
It’s going to be Reality Fridays next season on FOX. How craptacular will that be?
I was wondering what was taking so long for the numbers to come out. I have no life so I kept checking this site after each episode of Arrested Development I watched.
Dollhouse looked dumb to me, but I may have given it a chance if it wasn’t painfully obvious that the show wasn’t going to make it past 13 episodes. Ah, the vicious cycle.
If TSCC was so bad lead in so you tihink now Dollhouse has a better one?
Donn’t make me laugh.
squiggleslash Dollhouse sucked ok? stop blaming TSCC or prison break.
I’ve never seen Ghost Whisperer so low.
Yeah, no doubt about that, Robert. But is that series lows for Ghost Whisperer and Numb3rs?
Wow, that is sad. GW only got a 2.1 and was the highest rated show by 0.2?
The good weather has arrived and all shows are down.
And if you start form an already low point, when spring brings the figures down, the numbers start to look a bit pathetic
Yes, it’s a series low for Ghost Whisperer
Blaming TSCC or PB for low Dollhouse ratings is just pathetic.
OK, looks like I’m wrong. I’m glad about that, but only just
http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/04/dollhouse-prison-break-sink.html
Dollhouse had a 1.2, against PB’s 1.0, so more than a .1 difference there. Still, it’s coupled with an even poorer show than T:SCC, and the audience shrinks by .2-.3.
I was right about Dollhouse beating PB, wow seemed like a fools dream really
Goodbye Dollhouse then. You won’t really be missed. It looked like it was finding its footing in recent weeks but last nights episode was amazingly dull.
melbye, ANYTHING can beat PB. even repeats of According to Jim
lol @ cool
Obviously it wasent dollhouses fault that the ratings were lover, because
1. nice weather
2. the smash-hit movie obsessed premiered last night
3. It was a stand alone episode.. thoes always do worse
4. It had a poor lead in!
5. The planets wernt aligned in alphabetical order
6. CBS WASENT in reruns
RIP Joss
oh and since we seem to be on a chuck phase here (which is obviously a bazillion times more fun than telling people dollhouse wont comeback/hearing fanboys rave about how it will)…..
I’m soaking my entire living room in gasoline so i can burn it down easier after I watch the finale. Plan to have flaming sub sandwiches catapulted at Rockefeller Plaza!!!
too bad
seems my fridays are clearing up
all my shows going bye bye
TSCC Dollhouse BSG etc
sigh
cool says:
April 25th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Bye bye Dollhouse, next week is Chuck
Oh, you wouldn´t like that. Who will you try to make fun of then? I mean, it´s not like any of your comments amount to anything else other than trying to be funny or sarcastic and failing miserably
Last May GW went under 9 million for the last 2 episode of the season in the fast nationals (I didn’t check their finals for those 2 eps)
On a random note can we just pre-empt some of the TSCC fan comments that are to come with these responses
1) Prison Break did the exact same 1.0 that TSCC pulled at the begining of March
2) Dollhouse has been dropping since its debut TSCC has not been propping it up as a strong lead-in
3) TSCC is still cancelled regardless of how poorly Dollhouse and the already cancelled Prison Break perform
‘Obsessed’ opened last night with only 11… so that’s not an excuse.
cool, that isn’t a series low for Ghost Whisperer. Series low was last seasons finale. The episode before that was also lower.
http://pifeedback.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63310451/m/817101221
http://pifeedback.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63310451/m/594102021
Looking like series lows for other series though. It’s Friday in late April. Everything’s getting lower from here on out.
Relish in others people’s failure! Relish, I say!
This upped TSCC’s chance as a 13 ep, mid season replacement.
Ink it and let the writers get a head start.
Unless The Soloist or Fighting did well above what anyone would have sanely expected movies absolutely cannot be blamed for this weeks Friday numbers. Sports will be though. Not that I think that argument really holds up for Dollhouse since its been bleeding viewers since day one. But still…
The only reasons you need are (1) the weather is nicer, and (2) people are jumping off the sinking ship. I’m sure it has little to do with the quality of the show itself.
BRITFan please see my previously posted prepared response 3. Thanks.
This upped TSCC’s chance as a 13 ep, mid season replacement.
No. No it did not.
cool, thats not kool, your poking gynormous holes in my fake arguments about how dollhouse didnt actually suck ratings-wise last night. NOT KOOL!!!
What were the total viewers for Ghost Whisperer, Dateline & 20/20?
Victor not likely. And Chuck has nothing to do with Friday, why bring it up in EVERY discussion? Tired of hearing about it 24/7.
BRITF Fan:
what numbers are you looking at? TSCC is TYING a DEAD show. whoop’d'doo.
I was right in my guess of it returning with a 1.2.
Weird early today someone told me they got a 1.2 and 1.0 I took that to mean PRISON BREAK got the 1.2… but this makes more sense. I still think the show is weirdly still on the bubble because I was expecting a 1.2 and I knew many at FOX were too.
This is not a series low for Ghost Whisperer. Last season last episode was. Thanks goodness its still winning the night.
I just Pray and Hope numbers for Ghost Whisperer go up next week.
What I find far more irritating than irrational fans who cling to hopes that their favorite show will return when its chance of returning is slightly less than Canada invading the United States are arrogant know-it-alls who continually tell us a show “is canceled” when in fact it has not been.
Alex, actually basketball hurt DOLLHOUSE before so it’s likely to hurt it last night. However we’re not talking by much. If anything it kept it from a 1.3.
Victor, I enjoy Chuck too. I was just wondering when the first Chuck comment would come up and it was yours. I meant no harm to you !!
Fox do much better with Don’t forget the lyrics and AYSTAFG.
G:
Ghost Whisperer: 9 million, A18-49: 2.1
20/20: 6.50 million, A18-49: 1.8
Dateline: 4.80 million, A18-49: 1.3
Michael at this stage I would be amazed if Ghost Whisperer is in any kind of danger of not returning next year. It’s a big anchor for CBS’ Friday night line-up and I actually think that (for once) the argument that nothing else would do as well in the slot is probably true. Ghost Whisperer has had a big enough season this year to come back without trouble whether the numbers rebound next week or not.
Nick my general point on the sports excuse was less that it didn’t have any effect and more (like yours) that its pretty much irrelevant at this point. The shows been bleeding every week at this stage trying to blame anything but the show is just insane. Its akin to a Heroes fan blaming 24 for Heroes dropping every week when it was dropping on a weekly basis long before 24 returned.
I just wanted to second (or third, or whatever) the sentiment above. Who would of thought that it was actually TSCC holding Dollhouse up and not the other way around.
And really, I think even most Whedon-Worshipers are starting to realize Dollhouse is cr@p. This isn’t Firefly folks. What’s keeping it down is it’s own quality level not network incompetence.
btw, so weird to see Flashpoint in second…it took a hit with a expanded 20/20
Cool, since I didn’t see hourly data for 20/20, it might not have been second. And 20/20, not Numb3rs won the 10pm hour, but I didn’t see the data in a way that allowed for reflecting that.
Nick C, why is Fox considering keeping it with a 1.2? That’s worse than some episodes of Sarah Connor.
Tom please read my prepared response number 2.
Oh I understand, thanks Robert.
Hello Dollhouse fans.
Remember how you were blaming Terminator for your low ratings?
Regards.
GW was really great last night and so was Flashpoint two very good shows! As for PB no matter how people spin it the show stinks and it’s run it’s course.The worst mistake FOX did was bring it back this year they should have ended last year that ridiculous show!
OMG, I’m DH fan and unlike others I never blamed Terminator for DH’s lousy ratings. But soon they shall be reunited in that great cancellation room in the sky.
WOW GW took a big hit. Whats going on with these numbers?
20/20 first hour: 5.30
20/20 second hour: 7.70
ABC with 5.6 million, NBC with 4.3 million, Fox with 3.3 million and The CW with 1.4 million.
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2009/04/ghost-whisperer-leads-cbs-to-friday-victories.html
It looks like Dollhouse was the one bringing down TSCC’s ratings.
“Weird early today someone told me they got a 1.2 and 1.0 I took that to mean PRISON BREAK got the 1.2… but this makes more sense. I still think the show is weirdly still on the bubble because I was expecting a 1.2 and I knew many at FOX were too.”
Yes, FOX is going to keep a show with a 1.2 demo. What a load of crap. FOX can just bring back the cheaper game shows…
TS please read prepared response number 1, especially the part about TSCC’s numbers at the start of March. Thanks.
I know it’s a Friday…….but are these the lowest ratings ever for all of the networks combined on a sweeps night?
Rob, tonight’s (Saturday) ratings will almost certainly be lower, and without looking, I’d be pretty certain that plenty of other “sweeps” Saturdays were too. As for lower Friday ratings, quite possibly last season with the strike there were lower Friday numbers. Going back many years produces comparisons that are nearly meaningless.
“the type of network interference it was likely to receive.”
The problem I have with this thinking is they make it sound like Fox is the only station that does it and they only do it to Joss shows. Even with interference he could have come up with something better. Do people think he just had free reign at the WB or something?
It had gotten better for a couple eps but sucked again last night. Sometimes there’s no conspiracy of the network or bad luck. Dollhouse just wasn’t that good of a program.
Jack, easy, people aren’t home is what happened. Easiest thing to do is look at the household numbers which zap2it has. Take Ghost Whisperer. It had a 6.2/12. A 12 share for Ghost Whisperer. Same as the episode 2 weeks ago. Same as what it’s gotten for most of the season. 12 share in November vs 12 share in late April is pretty big. In November that 12 share would equate to about a 7 rating, but that percentage of people watching tv shrinks at this point in the season, especially in younger age groups, so even if you’re getting the same share of viewers, the pie is smaller.
I erred on the counterprogramming comments above, my apologies. That’s what I get for using memory instead of data!
“The problem I have with this thinking is they make it sound like Fox is the only station that does it and they only do it to Joss shows. Even with interference he could have come up with something better. Do people think he just had free reign at the WB or something?”
That’s me you are quoting… and if you had read the rest of my post, you would have noted that I suggested Joss would have been better off shopping it to *CABLE*, where there actually *IS* less network interference.
Jayson, share metrics commonly reported aren’t worth much for comparative purposes since they are always rounded to the nearest whole number (unlike ratings points). There’s no doubt that the amount of people watching TV on Friday last night was less than a Friday in February, but if other comparisons hold up, there was probably ~8% difference in TV viewing from a Friday in February (and a relative 8%, not an absolute 8%) and probably very little to no difference at all with last Friday. Unfortunately I won’t be able to make those comparisons until Monday when I see last night’s HUT/PUT
I was one of those people watching Dollhouse ONLY because it was immediately after TSCC. I was not a real fan of Dollhouse but I though it was good enough. When TSCC stopped, I stopped watching Dollhouse… I’m pretty sure it’s the case a lot of people too.
That’s my hypothesis about those bad numbers considering Dollhouse this week. And by the way, those two shows (TSCC and Dollhouse) made me discover tvbythenumbers.com
also this episode of Ghost Whisperer did not have Hilary Duff so less appeal
Dumont in the PI forums is reporting the following share for DH in the 18-49 demo:
04/26/09 1.2/3
A 3 share would be a series low. If they renew it now, it’s for reasons other than numbers.
GW is obviously tanking. If we don’t allow excuses for Dollhouse and other shows on the weather, which would include seasonal variations. No point extending that credit to other shows.
TSCC is the one that deserves a good lead-in. it was the monday anchor for awhile and the ratings held steady, it was the friday anchor for awhile and the ratings held steady. what TSCC needs is a good compatible lead in to grow
the show data table above has been updated with the info from Marc Berman
This is such a pity. I know TSCC is gone, and now I’m losing Dollhouse just when I was starting to get really attached to it. I’m sticking to Sci Fi hence forth, FOX just doesn’t give us any respect. To any Dollhouse fans lurking, are you guys going to try another Firefly? If so, I just might join you.
“That’s me you are quoting…”
Aware of that, I am. I read your post, I just happened to disagree.
“Joss would have been better off shopping it to *CABLE*, where there actually *IS* less network interference.”
He’d have been better off making a better show. I’ve read a couple of the first scripts. They’re not any better than what aired and the characters were even less likable/relatable. Joss’s strength as a writer has never been plotting or storytelling, it’s building good characters.
That said, I do know there is less interference, it just wouldn’t have made a difference and minus the marketing push of Fox, it probably would have faired worse. The premise and first episodes would have still turned off a lot of his fans.
I like the guy, blimp-sized ego and all. He’s done some great work. Better luck next time.
Marty, the only reason they would renew it now is because they think the DVD sales will be HUGE. I’m not sure how exactly they would come to that conclusion, but I suppose they might. Any notion of FOX wanting to build out its Friday nights by airing Dollhouse is out the window though.
JustTunedIn, GW isn’t tanking. Proclaiming it did a marvelous never seen hit performance ratings-wise yesterday might be stretching the truth a bit, and that sucks for GW, CBS and their advertisers, but over the season GW has done quite well and has more than any other Friday show including CBS shows earned not to be judged on a single night, which it BTW still handily won. If it keeps going down and puts up a 1.9 for the next original episode, we’ll talk again.
JustTunedIn, Ghost Whisperer and Flashpoint both had lower-than-usual performances last night but they still won their timeslots. Dollhouse, OTOH, came in fourth.
idizzle: I was being sarcastic.
I see a lot of articles that blame the weather and sports events and movie events for bad tv ratings (yes even this site has suggested it in some of the articles) especially this week with such low ratings, but posters on this site also love to blast fans for those same excuses. I know GW isn’t tanking, and that needing an excuse for a show week to week is stretching the likelyhood of it, but I don’t think Dollhouse did a season low is for any other reason than GW doing a (second to) season low.
They may be tied to the same thing.
Darn it! I got attached to Dollhouse after all! I was trying to avoid it!
Will this cement Whedon as a one trick pony in the eyes of the networks? Fair or not.
I REALLY DON’T CARE ABOUT THE RATINGS OF PRISON BREAK.
YESTERDAY’S EPISODE 4.18 WAS AWESOME ! AMERICANS ARE ST_PID…
RYAN, you’re right with the executives at Fox then. They don’t care about the ratings of Prison Break either.
I was expecting ‘Prison Break’ to bounce back in the second week, as has historically and strangely happened.
blame dollhouse and not prison break!
dollhouse sucks!
it’s really a bad show, so the ratings are fair…
“I still think the show is weirdly still on the bubble because I was expecting a 1.2 and I knew many at FOX were too.”
This makes no sense whatsoever… the show might be renewed because horrible numbers were expected and it got them? Shows are being picked up now because they hit LOW expectations?
If DH gets renewed at this point, it’s got nothing to do with numbers (and probably a great deal to do with FOX execs smoking something).
“TSCC is the one that deserves a good lead-in. it was the monday anchor for awhile and the ratings held steady, it was the friday anchor for awhile and the ratings held steady. what TSCC needs is a good compatible lead in to grow”
Do people not realise that consistently pulling low numbers is a bad thing? Fox don’t care if TSCC could pull a steady 1.3 on Fridays (which it couldn’t by the way) or a 2.0 on Mondays (which it couldn’t by the way) because both of those numbers are horrible. Networks do not look for shows that consistently pull bad numbers.
And what TSCC needed is exactly what Dollhouse needed – an audience and episodes that don’t suck.
JustTunedIn, I wasn’t trying to make an arbirtray excuse for one show. I was actually trying to make the point about everything. That it wasn’t a coincidence that every series on the same night hit a season low. Or that it wasn’t coincidence that every show Thursday night, was at or near season lows. This extendeds to everything. My only point was things should be evaluated in relative terms. I was using GW as an example but same thing applies across the board. Numbers was down. Season success stories 30 Rock and The Office have dropped off a million plus viewers from what they were doing a couple of months ago. CSI flavors all down. How I Met Your Mother and Big Bang are down from their highs from a month or two ago. Lie to Me falling. Medium falling. Housewives shrinking. Bones was off all week. It’s across genres, across nights, across networks. This is not show A vs. show B thing. How many shows are people talking about how they are hitting season high or are up right now? My only thing is networks are still going to evaluate shows and their performance but they don’t do it against a random space in time, they do it based on the relative performance. If everything goes down, I’d determine that they understand that things don’t occur in a vacuum, and that’s the basis by which I’d look at the numbers for everything.
Why would CBS cancel a show that had more viewers than anything else for the night and came in second only to 20/20 in demos? The show is a consistent time slot winner for CBS.
As for the Fox shows I haven’t watched them but the problem isn’t the shows per se, it is the day. With Idol taking up so much space in the schedule you could program the best show in the world and people just would not be watching if they are not home. An interesting test would be to put on a new Idol every Friday and see if people would stay home to watch. Then you could free up the rest of the week when people are more likely to be home.
TSCC fans don’t have much to celebrate, but they would have had much less to celebrate if PB and DH did better than TSCC. Clearly that is not the case.
As for DH pulling a Firefly with a movie finale, don’t bet on it. DH fans are not even remotely as hardcore as Firefly and TSCC fans and are not nearly as organized. All imaginable online indicators will back me up on this.
Remi please see prepared response number 1. Thanks.
“2. the smash-hit movie obsessed premiered last night”
Clearly, it’s this. Because if there’s one thing the Whedonuts understand, it’s being Obsessed.
Alex, I read your response. You’re not as smart as you think you are… or at all. Easy on the arrogance bud. I’m just stating a point, nothing more.
@ jayson… dare I name the one show that has bottomed out?
I have the guts to float the “C” word around!
Yes, Alex, give it up with the “please see…” stuff. The joke was over the first time you did that.
Since we all pretty much agree
TSCC,Dollhouse and Chuck
shows i like are all probably toast
does anyone know about the chances of any of them being picked up by another network?
i realize i am grasping at straws
would be nice to have tscc or dollhouse on scifi or another channel
i mean im not tottally off my nut friday night lights was a goner for certain and out of the blue dtv picked em up
Remi the only problem is Dollhouse *is* still doing better than Terminator – it hasn’t dropped as low as TSCC did and its average will still be better than Terminator’s as well. As I pointed out with prepared response one, Terminator dropped to a 1.0 not that long ago.
djm, do you mean Castle?
Dollhouse will not be picked up by another network because FOX owns it. FOX is their Alpha and Omega
TSCC is owned by WB so they could technically put the show on another network if they wanted to keep the franchise going to maintain interest in the movies.
No clue about Chuck.
Kings has been pulled from the NBC schedule for tonight April 25. What a
huge miscarriage of justic—what a waste
the idea of Dollhouse is great but the show is not good. Tscc is way better than dollhouse.
Remi Fox Studios owning Dollhouse doesn’t exclude it from being picked up by another network but before I say anymore let me be crystal clear and say that I don’t in a million years think any other network will pick it up. However if Fox don’t want the show but another network is willing to pay the license fee Fox Studios will sell it to them and if Fox Studios sees enough money/potential in DVD sales then there’s nothing to stop them shopping a second series to other networks when Fox passes on season two. But again I’ll repeat none of that is actually going to happen.
Terminator and Chuck are both in the same position as Dollhouse only they’re owned by Warner Brothers. In theory if their respective networks pass on a third season and WB sees profit in a potential third season then they can shop it to other networks. The chances of anyone else picking them up is tiny though. The number of shows that get ‘saved’ by moving between networks is minuscule and there’s no real reason to think Chuck or Terminator will make up their ranks.
And before people reel of shows like NCIS or Criminal Intent remember for every cancelled/bubble show saved by a move to another network you name I can name at least twenty that weren’t.
I don’t see how prepared response 1 even addresses Remi’s comment. My take on his comment is that dollhouse has not improved without Terminator as the lead in, but that if it had suddenly done much better then it would have been a definite negative against Terminator. I totally agree. The numbers say nothing positive about Terminator, but they don’t make it any worse either.
As for the movie idea Remi, T:TSCC fans are so well organized that we got 3 movies about our tv show filmed before the show even came out! Because of course the three earlier movies were really just prequels to whet the audience’s appetite for T:TSCC. And of course the 4th movie is just a natural filler to keep us sated until the next season of T:TSCC comes out. I have finally decided to live in delusional world, and am quite liking it here thank you very much! (This wasn’t said with sarcasm, i’m a big fan of the show and it was said with loyal conviction if not with any reality – this is the rational section of TunedIn’s brain talking. Help Me! The irrational side is taking over!). Where was I? Yes, T4 is just filler while we wait for season 3.
I’m hoping for a sequel to Serenity. I own three copies. The original dvd, the special edition DVD, and the blue ray. I just can’t seem to help myself. I watch them rather frequently as well and even considered buying the graphic novels except that I disliked the art so much.
JustTunedIn response one applies (as I explained above) because Dollhouse is still doing better than Terminator. Not that that’s much of an achievement.
Considering how TSCC was moved to another day, screwed over midseason, how high DVR, FOD, hulu, torrent ratings it had (yeah i know they dont officialy count), how big fanbase it has and how high DVD sales it will have compared to Dollhouse it does much better.
If, IF one those shows gets renewed its gonna be TSCC.
Oh and Alex – ure a douche lol, sorry couldnt help it.
Catherine,
If a show is winning its timeslot (either in the key demos or overall) and the network is concerned about its budget, then you can argue the day might matter, because the “pie” is bigger M-Th.
But if a show consistently comes in 3rd in its Friday timeslot, including in the key demo, then the problem isn’t the day, because there are competitors doing better at the exact same time.
Earning a small piece of a small pie doesn’t earn you a shot at a bigger pie.
See: Flashpoint vs Dollhouse.
Wow. The Wikipedia entry for Chuck is really detailed!
Alamo,TSCC wasn’t screwed over midseason- it failed on Monday and had to be moved to Friday.
Ok, I’ll try one more time. The point being NOT that terminator did better than Dollhouse, but that Dollhouse-without-Terminator is not doing better than Dollhouse-with-Terminator.
Alex said : “And what TSCC needed is exactly what Dollhouse needed – an audience and episodes that don’t suck.”
Although this might be a personal issue, anybody nonbiased against this show will accept that its episodes do not suck, as most of independent reviews i read admits.
And for audience: If a miracle happens and it ll be renewed, there is no reason to have its first season viewers return back with enough promotion (which Fox didnot do this season) and appropriate time slot. That numbers make Fox happy (Excluding plot, it has 8m and over 3 demo), since high online viewing numbers suggest it has more interest than live viewers. Fortunately, Fox ll decine not Alex
I think T:TSCC originally started losing viewers this season because of the introduction of Riley. It felt forced and it was annoying. Even I didn’t want to watch her. Once I knew she had a purpose it was different but damage was done. However:
“Riley was originally scripted to first appear in “Brothers of Nablus”, but due to pressure from the FOX executives, she was introduced in “Automatic for the People”, thereby shifting the direction of the entire season. “
Quotes were from Wiki, but I was looking up stuff that I already knew and Wiki seemed liked the easiest place to find it.
“Riley was met with heavy critisizm from fans who believed her introduction to the show was both forced and unwelcome. Many blame Riley for the deteorating relationship between John, his mother, and Cameron. They also attribute a lot of John’s “emo-ness” to Riley’s presence, further adding venom to their hate of the character.”
That sucks for Dollhouse, I was really starting to like it, but Ghost Whisperer is only gonna go up guaranteed next season, starting Fall 2009, it begins airing in syndication on SyFy (Sci Fi Channel), ION, and WE, and if syndication for currently airing network shows on TBS, Cartoon Network, etc. are any indication, it can only add a positive spin.
And the new story arc with the baby, and the return of Romano, and the Book of Changes, and hopefully the death of Jamie Kennedy and Jennifer Love Hewitt’s relationship so that as producer she’ll kick him off the show, things are looking up, hehe.
“Considering how TSCC was moved to another day”
House was moved to another day and has survived the move. Bones has been thrown around the schedule and for the most part its audience has followed. When the audience is there they’ll follow the show, Terminator’s problem was that the audience wasn’t there.
“screwed over midseason”
Why do you believe Terminator was screwed over midseason? Honestly Terminator was lucky it came back midseason period. It’s also worth pointing out that its spent the tail end of its season in the same position as Dollhouse in fact in many ways Terminator was in a much stronger position than Dollhouse ever was and still it didn’t perform as well as Dollhouse.
“how high DVR, FOD, hulu, torrent ratings it had”
Its DVR ratings weren’t high at all and care to provide numbers for how each episode of Terminator did vs. Dollhouse and every other show on Fox when it comes to Hulu and Fox onDemand? I’m not even going to discuss torrents because as you pointed out they’re meaningless.
“how big fanbase it has”
Terminator does NOT have a big fan base that’s why its been cancelled. If Terminator had a big fan base then it wouldn’t have bombed on Monday and been moved to Friday and it would be getting a third season without question. A handful of crazy people online does not add up to a big fan base.
“how high DVD sales it will have compared to Dollhouse”
Can I borrow your time machine please? Or better yet could you just take a trip to May 5th so we can put the Chuck fans out of their misery one way or another?
The series high for Ghost Whisperer was Feb. 28, 2009 with 11.67 viewers, that week the show was #15 on the overall Nielsen shows and beat Lost (starring Jennifer’s old friend from Party of Five) and Desperate Housewives, series low was last season as someone stated.
“Although this might be a personal issue, anybody nonbiased against this show will accept that its episodes do not suck, as most of independent reviews i read admits.”
I assume you’re referring to Terminator not Dollhouse on this point either way I think you’re wrong. Terminator has not been getting glowing reviews from critics or even fans, I’ve heard nothing but bad things about the Sarah story arc and as JustTunedIn posted the Riley arc was heavily criticised as well. More importantly people tuned out because what they were seeing wasn’t working for them so clearly something went wrong.
HBO should pick up Dollhouse and air it following True Blood! As far as Fox goes, it’s a goner.
Alamo said “If, IF one those shows gets renewed its gonna be TSCC”
While I don’t really think this will happen, I do think that TSCC has more to live for than Dollhouse does. With the movies to prop it up for a bit I think it could rebound some of its lost ground where Dollhouse really doesn’t have anything to make me think it could improve in its ratings. TSCC could stand a 3rd season even if it were just to milk the movies and end the series properly. Of course my thoughts are not meant to anger Dollhouse fans. I’m not crapping on your show at all, just feel that the day of a boost for it have passed where TSCC does have a chance at a bounce in its future if given the time.
This particular site is pretty much the most anti-TSCC oriented out of all the sites I’ve seen on the net, Alex being one of the main buzz kills, hehe. I’m definitely rooting for the show because I loathe reality TV garbage.
I never watched a minute of Chuck so I can’t comment on it, but TSCC has a much better chance of getting the miracle renewal or the move to Sci-Fi than Dollhouse does, because TSCC is owned by WB and because it is part of a still very much vibrant franchise. The only argument the average DH fan has is “OMG Joss Whedon is so cool WOW!!”
If Chuck doesn’t work out, I at least hope someone at one of the networks gives SCOTT BAKULA a TV show, something sci fi related or not, I’ve been watching Quantum Leap non-stop these past two weeks in my free TV watching time since I can’t stand the commercials nowadays or the crappy shows, and that was a great show and he’s a great actor, and he’s really hot too.
Whoops, Scott Bakula already has a TV show lined up with Ray Romano, well that’s good.
Remi this site is not anti-TSCC its just realistic about the shows prospects for renewal based on the numbers. This isn’t a fan site designed to propel the hopes and desires of TSCC fans or the fans of any other show, its function is to report and analyse the numbers (the clues in the name) and when you analyse the TSCC numbers the show is dead. Completely and utterly dead. Sorry.
Remi, the site isn’t anti-TSCC. It’s the NUMBERS that are anti-TSCC. despite the ramblings, neither Dollhouse of TSCC have any realistic chance of being picked up by FOX, or, for that matter, any other network.
My post about Riley was to point out that FOX forced her to be introduced earlier, thus changing the whole scope of the second season. Therefore, In my mind FOX did screw over the show.
I don’t know why people have such issue with the Sarah Centric episode arc. It was so short? Cameron was in her undies! Other shows have had bad episodes too. I still maintain that the way Riley was introduced was really what drove viewers away and that THAT particular introduction was ALL FOX’S FAULT. BAD FOX! For Shame! You should return the show for a third season just as PUNISHMENT for pushing the show against it’s natural order! BOO!
im gonna disagree alex
the episodes leading up to the finale were simply awesome
and as someone pointed out riley was a sticking point for many
maybe enough to kill their interest.
But i must say someof the best storytelling ive seen in a while
the finale had me
im upset its gonna be canceled and there will be no closure to such an awesome season finale
my own opinion i know
i agree however
i dont think TSCC has enough of a following like firefly did to get a movie made
and i agree about organization
trust me i have looked
and as a testament
the site for firefly/serenity called browncoats is still going
i would bet on a sequel from serenity before one for tscc
and it hurts to say that as i like the latter ALOT
my only hope in my delusional world is the new terminator movie will do SO well that they might consider giving TSCC another chance or shop it to another network…
sigh glass houses i know
watch where u throw those rocks…
Alex, i think we do not live in same world. During the season i didnot noticed any review that said it “sucks”. Some episodes get mediocre reviews like sarah storyarc- some of fans and viewers didnot like some of the storyarcs- this happens for any serialized show- you cannot make everyone happy… But overall in my opinion most of its episodes have good quality and intelligent…
“The only argument the average DH fan has is “OMG Joss Whedon is so cool WOW!!””
In fairness to the Dollhouse crazies your argument really isn’t any better since it ultimately amounts to ‘the Terminator franchise is awesome, go Terminator’
I personally don’t understand why anyone truly believes that T4 is somehow the saving grace of TSCC if anything I think T4 is another final nail in the coffin for TSCC. The very last thing WB will want if/when T4 hits and revives the Terminator franchise is a TV show that’s struggling and dragging the franchise down and more importantly isn’t actually linked to the movie. As far as I’m aware nothing that happens in the series is referenced in the films and I don’t really see the films being referenced in the series. They don’t overlap so there’s really no upside to keeping them around since your not really telling a vitally important or connected story.
I don’t see why WB and Halcyon gambles on damaging the brand/franchise they’re trying to rebuild with a TV show that hasn’t found an audience and likely won’t find one. Its better to end it now when it’ll get lost in the hype for T4 than in between T4 and T5 when TSCC cancelled is the main terminator related story.
Remi you’re totally right. Yet I imagine this site gets paid based on number of people who come here from the advertisers, so I don’t think we’re disliked too much! Someone explained to me already that it was fun to rile up, vulnerable fans. From looking at the Chuck overnight board there is WAY more harrassment there, both ways (at fans and from fans). Usually same people are involved so just assume it’s being done as a form of amusement.
[Hm, in case that came across as harsh on the site itself picture me saying it wich a cheeky smile and it doesn't sting as much. The financial comment I mean.]
Alex , recently IGN reviewed TSSC season 2 and give 9.2/10. Since from your comments i thought u didnot watch it, so it might be useful:
http://tv.ign.com/articles/974/974758p1.html
the episode of Dollhouse was great last night.
first alex
u r terrible dude
renewel for either
it probably wont happen
we know
it would be nice
realize some of us like dollhouse or TSCC chuck or any other for that matter
so of course we want it to succeed
the numbers dont lie
tscc and dollhouse
dead
i know /we know
seems you get your fun throwing rocks at my/others hopes that something—-anything will turn around the fate of a show we/we like
was making a joke about the movie reviving the series
it might-a possibility-sure
very small one
but i have no illusions probably not
but whats with the harsh?
u would want a show u like to succeed wouldnt u?
even if dollhouse/chuck /tscc and any other arent your cup of tea
you can understand that ..right?
this site is about the numbers-we get it-death tolls for my shows
throw your rocks now
lolz
Fans whining about Riley are comical, those episode had better ratings than all the Jameron B/S combined. arm chair quarterbacks can look at ratings that defy the logic they are trying to equate and then post about it ?,
Cameron being vaporized and TSCC having a T4 commercial within its Season finale only brought 3.6 million. Give it up and stop whining about how the show was produced.
Will you people quit ragging on alex? geeze.. I dare you people to prove one of the things hes said in this thread wrong. oh thats right.. you cant. SO bug off until you have something useful to say…
And Chet, quit trying to waxe poetic…
@ hagi, give me a break. on this site there have been tons of comments bout how the shows quality is low. I dont watch the show.. and im not talking about people saying it sucks because it ratings suck. I’m talking about FANS like RSH who hate how the writers took the season. And yes he is a fan.. dont give me this “hes not a fan cuz he dosent worship the ground TSCC walks on” crap.
anyhoo.. [dusts self off]
if flashpoint keeps winning its timeslot.. what are the odds of it still getting canned?
But season 1 did so much better. Riley wasn’t in Season 1, while Jameron was. Riley was in Season 2 while Jameron took a back seat. Season 2 results were worse than season 1. Therefore Riley is at fault. Ha!
Hagi I’m not sure you could have produced a review from a site I respect less than IGN…
But to clarify something the show clearly had some degree of creative problems – you don’t bleed viewers to the extent and consistency that Terminator has over the course of its two seasons when you’re producing the all encompassing excellence that’s claimed. I could understand if the show hadn’t started with relatively big numbers and a bigger audience had just never been exposed to the show but obviously something in the stories and characters wasn’t connecting with the audience because they were switching off.
My read on it from what I’ve read and heard from people who stopped watching is that whilst the show may very well have been intelligent and well written it wasn’t very exciting or particularly interesting and it spent too long dwelling on the endless emo-angst of its characters rather than developing a story that they could sink their teeth into. What reviewers and what audiences seek out and classify as ‘good’ tend to be incredibly different, which is why the winners of the Peoples Choice awards are usually completely different from the winners at the Emmys.
Terminator’s problem is perhaps less that it wasn’t ‘good’ and more that it wasn’t what people wanted it to be or what it should have been and in that sense it is a failing of the creative team behind the show.
djm is Flashpoint getting canned? I just assumed that it was coming back as long as the folks in Canada were still paying for it.
And Chet I have no problem with fans of a show wanting that show to be renewed nor do I have any problem with them expressing that, however if you’re going to try and argue for the renewal on a numbers basis on a website that’s about television numbers then you have to be prepared for people to question it. TVByTheNumbers isn’t a TSCC fan site and as a result we’re not all here to dream up insane ways in which Terminator might get a third season.
Fridays must be considered separately:
This season mainly two different shows aired in Friday 8 pm slot for Fox and both averaged 1.3 in demo. Smarter than 5th grader (18 eps) and TSSC (9 eps). House rerun got 1.3, Cops rerun got (1.5, 1.3), Movies (School of rock 1.0, Bruce Almighty 1.6) and Sugar bowl 4.3… Apart from Sugar Bowl, none of the shows got bigger than 1.7 demo in any week this season.
If you consider live+7 numbers, TSSC averaged ~1.8 demo, bigger than Smarter. Some authorities in this web site said Fox must renew “Smarter…” but cancel TSSC, although TSSC beats “Smarter” in live+7 demo numbers. The reason they said is that “Smarter…” is cheaper than TSSC.
This numbers indicate that, whatever Fox will air next year in this timeslot, cannot get better numbers than TSSC unless it is a sport event, or a clone of GW.
Source for numbers : mediaweek
hagi: That reasoning is why I was asking earlier about whether advertisers paid more to be matched with scripted shows than they have to pay to be matched with non scripter. I have a feeling Dodge wouldn’t want to have to pay the same rates matched with Smarter that it pays with Terminator. If it is the case that they do pay less than it is possible that that makes up a part of the loss of profit margin if they went with a similarly rated serialized. Factor that in with DVD sales, product placement, online sales, onlinie viewing advertising sales etc. T:TSCC may come out to be a more profitable show.
Whether that saves the show or not is a different question. It would be a gamble for Fox. A gamble I hope that they take but that history with the network is strongly against. Still, there have been a few surprising renewals this season that went against ratings. I’m still hopeful, but it really is just that, hopeful. I would be prepared for the worst.
Alex it is normal to have some fans, such us RHS, dislike the direction of the show. This doesnot prove that the episodes “suck” or not. Actually since this site is about numbers i donot like to discuss the quality fo the shows but when i see you said it sucks ( in quality) i have to respond, since i am disagree with you.
Alex,
I just hope that you’ll have the courage to stick around once T:SCC will be renewed so we can read from you some other feat of falsified rhetoric.
Till then get a life.
Jean, are you going to be here when TSCC is off the fall schedule admitting how wrong you were? lol
As far as quality goes. It’s a very subjective thing but, imo, the show runner didn’t understand what a Terminator series should really be and he bungled it badly for most of the season. The show wasn’t bad it just felt BORING and that’s the kiss of death for a Sci Fi show, let alone one produced under the Terminator banner. The fact the show lost over 50% of it’s audience is fairly good supportive evidence of that.
@ alex:
typo.. my bad.
@ Hagi
“These numbers indicate that, whatever Fox will air next year in this timeslot, cannot get better numbers than TSSC unless it is a sport event, or a clone of GW.”
would you FedEx me your magic 8 ball? I’d really like to know how nothing can possibly get better than tscc’s average.
This is just a guess… but Dollhouse has been higher than TSCC.. so dosent that blow a whole in your point? (feel free to show me I’m wrong.. my memory is crap)
Dollhouse is awful !!! whendon is not the same as he used to be in Buffy!! accept it!! it is not prison break’s or TSSCC’s fault that Dollhouse sucks!
Lannie Grace reported the other day that two sources told her that WB is seriously considering putting TSCC on Sci-Fi for another season because cancelling the show for good like 3 days before T4 comes out in theatres would be really bad mojo. Now whether one considers that a credible source or not is a different question.
I actually think TSCC would be very successful on Sci-Fi on a night other than Friday. The show didn’t find the kind of audience it needs for surviving on a major network, but I’m sure it would do great with sci-fi’s demo and probably be one of its most successful shows, if it keeps up the momentum from the last few episodes and the season 2 finale. I’m also fairly certain that Sci-Fi would love to jump on the Terminator franchise if given a good opportunity.
@djm, Hagi is referring to TSCC’s timeslot not DH’s.
Remi, I don’t think WB is going to fund an entire new season simply because the show is quietly canceled right before the movie premieres. lol The movie is going to do well (or not) on it’s own at this point.
@djm: I like that @ thing. Makes it easier to get someone’s attention. Anyway, I think he meant to suggest that nothing was meaningfully better. Dollhouse is only fractions of a point above terminator. GW on the other hand, and that sport event were considerably above. I keep interrupting to say what I think people meant to say. That’s probably a really bad habit and I could be completely wrong. So it’s what I THINK he meant to say. Now, Smarter is cheaper and therefore Fox benefits from that. So even if they had the same ratings, Smarter might still get picked for that reason alone.
As for the magic 8 ball and time machine comments, there are plenty of people here who have said “it’s not coming back” who probably deserve that comment just as much. Friday is going to be a tough slot for Fox, even with reality it’s not pulling in great numbers. I hope they don’t just go back to Reality shows from before and try comedies maybe.
they suffer beacuse the show is on one week and than there isnt one for like a month
JustTunedIn advertisers pay by the demo and ratings, that tells them everything, not whether its scripted or not.
MASSIVE FACEPALM
Oh and TSCC bled ratings since its inception, Riley episodes peaked the ratings on Monday with Mr. Ferguson is ill, the ratings don’t reflect this minority fanatic cameron/jameron Jihad. They are just a small group that aren’t in the demo that FOX cares about anyways.
I’d like to say something that is really ticking me off. People on here are saying if any of FOX’s “bubble shows” get renewed, it will be T:SCC. What a load of crap. The show is gone. If any bubble show on FOX gets renewed, it will be Lie to Me.
Friday/Saturday are where shows go to die. Plain and simple you get put on those nights you better hope and pray cause very few shows survive the weekend lynching. I’m not sure where people pull there chances out of for TSCC and Dollhouse returning but let’s be realistic there’s a 90%+ chance both of those shows are done. Flashpoint’s move to Friday was probably by far the best accidental move made but more then likely it was by accident as it was probably sent to Friday to sink and ended up floating.
@notty22, nobody cares about your constant anti-jameron drivel that you have to spew on every freaking site. Who cares?! Why are you so threatened by robot sex? Don’t you know the Japanese are already making female sex robots? Maybe you should get your underground taliban bunker ready.
“Flashpoint’s move to Friday was probably by far the best accidental move made but more then likely it was by accident as it was probably sent to Friday to sink and ended up floating.”
If CTV in Canada renews Flashpoint, I’m sure CBS would follow. It’s cheap for them, and in this economy you’ll take a cheap show.
@Remi: I totally distrust Lanie Grace.
I agree that T:TSCC would be a good fit for Sci Fi. I’ve asked time and time again what it would take for a show to get picked up like that to just get the response “not going to happen. That’s so rare”. Which doesn’t really help. I don’t know what kind of numbers the show would have needed in order for SciFi to consider it (hate syfy, won’t use it). It matches well with it’s other shows and SciFi seems to have more money than it used to so should be able to handle the show financially.
Remi said:…”Lannie Grace reported the other day that two sources told her that WB is seriously considering putting TSCC on Sci-Fi…”
I’m not even sure I know who Lannie Grace is….? Care to share a link or direct us to the site/article/comments???
didnt Cbs order another cop drama from Canda to i say pair them up
“didnt Cbs order another cop drama from Canda to i say pair them up”
Yes, I believe its called The Border or something.
““didnt Cbs order another cop drama from Canda to i say pair them up”
Yes, I believe its called The Border or something.”
The Bridge*
If the ratings weren’t so awful across the board, I would say this was the last nail in the coffin for Dollhouse. As it is, I’m betting they’ll hold off on a decision until next episode–Dollhouse pulled in 75% of Flashpoint in the demo this week, even if it doesn’t help the show’s profitability.
Wow Dollhouse sinks even lower, and Prison Break performs badly. Thats a shock, theres no renewal there. Whisperer, Flashpoint, and Numb3rs are all good.
RJ are you a Canadian or was that just an accidental slip? Because there is a Canadian show called The Border which also exists and almost got bought by Fox a while back.
Canada: We sell the world cop shows… With an emotional twist.
*R.I.P. Dollhouse — 2/13/09 – 5/8/09*
RJ, call it a load of crap all you want, but the whole idea of bringing DOLLHOUSE back has been about everything but the numbers for weeks now. FOX is talking about renewal and as such it can’t be about the numbers it must be about something else. Perhaps they feel if they renew it it will spark interest in the show? Perhaps they think with a stronger lead in it could do well next year on Fridays? I don’t know what exactly they’re thinking but they’re the ones who have been considering renewing it. That means it can’t be about the numbers, because the numbers aren’t good.
Ha, that’s the site everyone discounted as at all reliable a few weeks ago when she reported that the sets had come down, and then was proven to be a fake when the series finale aired. But now she’s totally reliable, I’m sure!
i deleted the link. I’m not into promoting sites that are deliberately set up exclusively as linkbait.
Yeah so let’s delete the link i posted as a response to someone who asked me for it so I look like an idiot…
Ausiello was the one who reported the thing about the sets.
Nick, or perhaps the people you’re listening to are talking just to…talk. FOX won’t be bringing the Dollhouse back, so all the talk seems pointless.
Remi: No, originally Ausiello debunked the tearing down of the sets. it was the site that you linked to that said they had been torn down.
even ratings for the most watched shows like ghost whisperer are quite lowww. Friday is like the death slot, no one wants to watch on fridays since mot people are out. if they moved prison break (best show!) and dollhouse and even ghost whisperer to the monday thru friday slots, i can just about garuntee you they will get much higher ratings. its being on, on fridays that cause the low ratings.
@Lizzie… haha prison break… I am almost as cynical about that show as the moderators of this site are about everything else.
“As for the magic 8 ball and time machine comments, there are plenty of people here who have said “it’s not coming back” who probably deserve that comment just as much. Friday is going to be a tough slot for Fox, even with reality it’s not pulling in great numbers. I hope they don’t just go back to Reality shows from before and try comedies maybe.”
yeah, your probably right..(not being sarcastic)
“RJ are you a Canadian or was that just an accidental slip? Because there is a Canadian show called The Border which also exists and almost got bought by Fox a while back.”
I’m not Canadian, it was just a slip.
I just forgot the name of the show until I searched it.
“RJ, call it a load of crap all you want, but the whole idea of bringing DOLLHOUSE back has been about everything but the numbers for weeks now. FOX is talking about renewal and as such it can’t be about the numbers it must be about something else. Perhaps they feel if they renew it it will spark interest in the show? Perhaps they think with a stronger lead in it could do well next year on Fridays? I don’t know what exactly they’re thinking but they’re the ones who have been considering renewing it. That means it can’t be about the numbers, because the numbers aren’t good.”
How is it anything but the numbers? The numbers (demo) bring it the money with advertisers. Sure DVD sales would help, but its not a huge amount in the overall money made. For FOX to save the show, DVD sales would have to be through the roof, which they wont be. How any network saves a show with 2.99 million viewers is just sad. Even the CW might cancel it with those numbers.
TOLD YOU PEOPLE terminator was helping dollhouse, not hindering. TOo bad, this episode was pretty good.
I could swear that I read on Ausiello that he went himself to the WB studios and when he asked to see the TSCC sets he was told they were torn down, but I don’t care enough to look for the article now. I know the writers of TSCC called him personally out for that rumor.
Remi, you are wrong. While Ausiello may have later said the sets were torn down, this person who keeps coming up with TSCC sources was the first person to claim that the sets were torn down. Ausiello reported that was not true and everyone should leave comments for him to save the show.
Cool, that’s completely bogus, and Josh Schwartz has already shot it down. And I’m removing the link from your comment
See:
http://www.givememyremote.com/remote/forget-the-chuck-rumorsjust-watch/
Ok, so the TSCC “sets torn down” thing wasn’t true? How do we know for sure?
Oh I don’t doubt that the TSCC sets will be torn down if they haven’t been already. Everyone knows the show will be canceled at this point, and that has been a foregone conclusion for months (at least to us).
the point is, I don’t feel like linking to sites that are exclusively set up for the purposes of link bait.
In my head I’ve always thought of Dollhouse as more of a maxi-series than an on going TV series. I suspect after this series goes off the air, it’ll find new life as a comic book series. Whedon has already squeezed some decent pocket change of comic book versions of Firefly, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, & Angel.
I don’t see why a Dollhouse comic couldn’t be the home of the unused ideas and stories that would have been the 2nd season. Unlike TV, comic book sales really are all about the numbers not the demos. Comics with sales around 50-100K are considered pretty successful and over all no one cares to much what the age of the buyers are.
well – Terminator wasn’t helping Dollhouse. Terminator has had disastrous ratings. Everyone agrees that Terminator’s ratings were so awful there is next to no chance T:SCC will be renewed by Fox for a third season. If Terminator had, say, a 2, then yeah, it’d be safe to argue that T:SCC may or may not have helped the show coming after it. But when it’s scoring 1.0-1.2, and the show after it has a similarly low audience, then the question is onlywhether it’s damaging the show coming after it. There’s no way on Earth is can be helping.
Prison Break’s figures were even worse. If there’s a link between Dollhouse and the show that precedes it, then both T:SCC and Prison Break have damaged the ratings of Dollhouse.
It actually surprises me that Dollhouse got a 1.2 given PB’s 1.0. I don’t think many people watching PB would have stayed on to watch DH, the two shows attract fairly different audiences. If PB had pulled a 1.4 and DH a 1.7 or 1.8, then Dollhouse’s figures would be fairly impressive and probably convince Fox to show it paired with a better show. But, unfortunately, both shows got astonishingly crap ratings.
squiggleslash, but remember that even the highest-rated show in the time slot, Flashpoint, got crappy ratings. 1.6? Dollhouse has pulled in that much or better several times over the course of this season. It was a terrible night for everyone, so I could see FOX writing it off as a blip if next week ticks up a few tenths of a point.
Christian, does 2 = several now?
Edit: Oh, I see you said that or better. So four times then.
Right, Julia, four if you include the pilot. I was surprised how low Whisperer and Flashpoint went this week. Again, its competitors’ poor ratings don’t help Dollhouse be profitable, but it does suggest that it was just a really bad night for TV, rather than an indicator of where Dollhouse will be on average.
JustTunedIn says:
“My post about Riley was to point out that FOX forced her to be introduced earlier, thus changing the whole scope of the second season. Therefore, In my mind FOX did screw over the show.”
No, sorry, there’s no way you can blame the TIMING of the introduction of Riley into the show for the show’s overall problems. No way. The show had MASSIVE problems besides Riley – Riley was just an example of those problems and not the worst problem either.
“I don’t know why people have such issue with the Sarah Centric episode arc.”
Because a) it wasn’t an arc, it went on ALL SEASON! b) it made the character look stupid, incompetent, sullen, and totally unlikable. It damaged the character’s status as one of the “heroes” of the show. And THAT was ALL Josh Friedman’s fault, not Fox’s.
“Cameron was in her undies!”
Once – and that was just a flashback to episode three of season one. It was also just a pointless example of wallowing around in Sarah’s psyche like it was sex with Lena for Friedman. Truly pathetic and pointless.
“I still maintain that the way Riley was introduced was really what drove viewers away and that THAT particular introduction was ALL FOX’S FAULT.”
No, it isn’t. How it was handled is all FRIEDMAN’s fault. You can blame Fox for the timing, but not the way it was actually handled or the way the character was portrayed or how John Connor was portrayed as an idiot – until he miraculously in the episode a few episodes from the end revealed “Hey, I’m not a moron! I knew all along! I just let everything go to hell because…well, I’m a moron!”
Pathetically bad writing. Brian Austin Green babbles about how Friedman lets everything go for an entire season, then makes big reveals two episodes from the end just to make everything “pay off”? WTF? THAT is how you KILL a show!
One of the problem with criticizing TSCC is that many of the episodes WERE well-written in terms of dialog, situations, etc., and the acting was always first rate (Dekker could use some improvement). So the fans focus on that and ignore the overall problems with the focus of the show, the pacing of the episodes and overall story arc, the damaging of the characterization of the characters, the rather stupid mistakes in terms of realism, the lack of pushing the envelope, etc. All of which are what killed the show in the end.
The show WAS well-executed – it was just executing the WRONG SHOW! It wasn’t executing Terminator, it was executing some morbid psychological problem of Josh Friedman’s medical condition.
Notty happens to be wrong about “Mr Ferguson” – the ratings peaked that night not because Riley was in it but because it was the big showdown with Cromartie. Riley had nothing to do with the ratings for that episode. Everybody knew one of the “big deaths” would be that night – and everybody knew it would be Cromartie. That was one of the few episodes that were really good in season two – despite the fact that once again John Connor was portrayed as a moron.
Oh, and the other big scene in that episode was Cameron deliberately trying to seduce him yet again, which I had predicted would occur since episode one had damaged her intentions in that regard. Unfortunately it seems Friedman had no intentions of developing that subplot, and it ended up with the embarrassingly bad “sex scene” in the finale that probably made most “Jameron shippers” throw up! The writers truly jumped the shark with that scene and they should be massively embarrassed to ever write again after that nonsense.
As for Dollhouse, it’s done for, Nick C. I don’t know why the hell you’re still beating the drums based on some rumor you heard over at Fox that for some totally unknown reason they might be considering renewing it. The ratings suck.
I know you argue that the ratings don’t apply to Friday nights, but I’ve yet to see you prove that to Robert and Bill’s satisfaction. You haven’t given one reason yet to believe that or to believe that Fox actually has ANY reason to renew Dollhouse other than their own hope that somehow it might trend upward.
I can understand Fox execs being irritated that their experiments in Remote Free and “Sci-Fi Friday” have crashed and burned. But I can’t see any evidence that they intend to lose money by renewing the shows that caused that.
If anyone is still “talking” about renewal for Dollhouse (or TSCC for that matter) then that’s all it is, just talk. In the case of Dollhouse, a few FOX employees might be stretching out the inevitable long enough that the show finishes it’s run before the bad news comes out but I really can’t see what FOX could get out of renewing it at this point (and I’m saying this even though I quite enjoy the series).
The story keeps changing I’m afraid… if it trends up… if it bottoms out and comes back up… if it doesn’t drop any more… last night was the night for decisions… still on the bubble… it’s not about the ratings anymore…
It’s becoming white noise. lol
Alex: “As far as I’m aware nothing that happens in the series is referenced in the films and I don’t really see the films being referenced in the series.”
Just to correct you slightly, the show did indeed reference events and scenes from T-2 and to a lesser extent T-1. For example, the scene in episode one of season two where John re-activates Cameron reflects a deleted scene from T-2 where Sarah wanted to destroy Arnie’s chip and John prevents her. The deleted scene in T-2 where Kyle Reese appears to Sarah in the hospital is reflected in one of the later TSCC episodes.
And of course the whole bit of Sarah being in a mental hospital for three years was repeatedly referenced as well as John being placed with foster parents who ended up dead in T-2.
Not to mention one of the Terminators carrying Arnie’s “.45 long-slide” from T-1 in the episode “Goodbye to All That”. It was ridiculous the geek worship that provoked on the staff by all accounts!
However, it had no connection with T-3 – except borrowing the reference to Sarah dying of cancer – and no connection to T-4. Friedman and McG kept their distance completely from each other in regards to T-4, no doubt on Halcyon exec orders. Partly that was to keep the writers from getting screwed up in each others’s plots and partly it was probably to build a firewall between the show and T-4 precisely to prevent any problems with the show bleeding over into T-4.
I also believe there was a HUGE amount of hubris on Friedman’s part that he thought he could do a complete rewrite of James Cameron’s concept and go his own way, as the finale indicated he intended to do if there were a season three.
Richard, there are plenty of factors that we frankly just don’t know about. Sure, the Live ratings suggest cancel, but we don’t know exactly where the web numbers are–it’s just an assumption that they’re too little to matter much. We don’t know exactly how much DVR numbers matter to the advertisers this season–again, Robert is relying on past assumptions. We don’t know how many preorders the DVD box sets have gotten or how willing the production company is to discount the series for the sake of future sales. And finally, there absolutely is a human element at play, and I’ve heard a number of reports from journalists and from Whedon himself that there is support from the execs for the show.
Robert and Bill don’t exactly have a long track record yet. I don’t disagree with their assessment of the Live ratings, but I also don’t think the Live ratings are as conclusive as we’re led to believe. That’s not to say I have any better information than they do–it’s just pointing out that there are huge gaps in our, and their, knowledge, enough to bring some element of uncertainty into play even with terrible ratings. The nature of this site itself is to rely on “the numbers”, but we don’t have them all, and we never will. I understand that the purpose here is to make the best prediction that can be made based upon the numbers we DO have, but I don’t think it should be presented as a certainty in absence of all the facts.
Christian, I think there’s plenty of evidence that “web numbers” are not big enough to matter and if there was a particular show that was pulling in groundbreaking “web numbers” then you can be sure we would hear about it.
John, any evidence we have is old and not specific to this show, and furthermore, we’ve seen a significant trend of growth in the streaming TV business. It’s also important to consider that a very high percentage of web viewers are going to be in the key demographic. And I don’t think it’s fair to assume that the data would be shared publicly even if it was very good. There are also extrapolations you can make about how predominant web viewing will be next year and the year after, and it’s possible that the executives are looking ahead to that.
Christian, while that sounds reasonable, and I do keep in mind that Robert and Bill are going on results for the last year or two, it seems pretty clear that there can be no factors other than the profitability of the show.
I don’t think it’s an “assumption” that the web numbers are irrelevant to the profitability of a show, or that the DVD sales rarely affect the overall profitability of a show – although I can see them affecting the selling price of the show to some degree – once the show has at least one season of DVD sales under its belt – which Dollhouse doesn’t have. Also, pre-orders are irrelevant – it’s total sales of DVDs that matter, which is why a first season show is unlikely to be renewed based on DVD sales.
I also don’t quite see how DVD numbers matter much to advertisers since they don’t get anything from that.
And how the network execs feel about a show simply isn’t relevant. Network broadcasting is highly competitive and people get fired for being wrong all the time. I don’t see execs staking their careers on how they “feel” about a show.
Also, Bill and Robert don’t produce these results as a certainty. They don’t predict for half hour comedies, reality shows and other shows that aren’t easily measured precisely because of other factors. But hour long scripted shows have to produce ad revenue for the network and that revenue is measured by the C3 numbers which they have discovered are closely tracked by the 18-49 demo. I don’t see any reason not to regard those numbers as definitive except in case where someone comes in with a big checkbook to underwrite a show for some reason, like DirectTV did with Friday Night Lights, or where some other deal outside the normal ad revenue sources occurs.
None of the latter options would appear to apply in the case of Dollhouse.
In the case of TSCC, I still doubt that WB has any intention of spending millions on producing a show which produces little or no revenue just on the odd chance that it can act as a “loss leader” or a PR vehicle for the Terminator movies and somehow the money expended on the show will be made up by additional sales of movie tickets. That may be the concept WB had at the beginning, but I’d say it’s been pretty severely shot down.
OTOH, I CAN see the possibility of a Terminator show being produced that WOULD make money for WB IF it were done properly. To do that, it would have to be done without Josh Friedman and it would have to be completely rebooted as if TSCC never existed.
I love DH, so obviously I’m bummed to see such horrid ratings.
I’m more bummed to see so many people “celebrating” DH’s numbers. No one should celebrate when scripted dramas fail, it just leads to more reality programming.
And regardless of how many times I’m called obsessed and delusional, I’m going to continue to have my fingers crossed that DH gets another season. I enjoy watching TV that gets me emotionally vested in its characters, and makes me think. YMMV.
Just ignore Alex and richardstevenhacks all their facts are 90% wrong and they are just haters. They can’t take the fact that TSCC is a successful show.
I’ve analyzed the statistics… TSCC has done what any show would have done in terms of ratings. It didn’t bleed viewers–this is a myth. It wasn’t dying, and that wasn’t the reason why it was moved to Friday. It was moved to Friday, because Fox believed it would be a great pair with Dollhouse (2 hot chicks; two scifi shows, back 2 back), it was a stupid decision on part of Fox.
Remember TSCC never had a lead in, so unlike Lucky Dollhouse which had the chance to build it’s audience from TSCC’s ratings + all the whedon fans jumping in.
In fact, if you look at a graph of TSCC’s ratings, it has held consistent with minor fluctuations like when Watchmen was a huge box office hit, and when it was moved or when season 2 started, at which time, Fox was advertising mostly new seasons of 24, american idol, and house.
TSCC will be renewed and some of you will be shocked indeed. Please, keep continuing to reply here and keep saying “TSCC is dead” “tscc is gone” bla bla bla, all you want, it’s not like anyone is listening to you. It’s not like anyone is replying to you and saying “Hey Alex, thank you for informing us that TSCC may not come back. Thank you for this valuable information.”
You’re just embarrassing yourself and talking to yourself.
@jords
I agree, I don’t get why people rejoice when shows are failing. It’s like as if they all have bet money with someone for the show to fail, and if it doesn’t they’re about to lose a lot of money so they are very relieved to hear news of “low ratings.”
Perhaps they are brainwashed reality show fans.
I ask you, what does all of this have to do with Chuck?
dollhouse’s fans: good news, fox is going to release the episode 13 on may 15th. we will see the season/series finale!!!!!!!! yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Any source on that, Lisa?
Ah, nevermind, I misread. You said 15th, not 22nd.
Rob, that is one of the more delusional posts we’ve seen here. Clearly you’ve been through the time bubble and are living in an alternate time line from whatever has been happening in this one.
I’ll bet you know Allison Young personally.
“When your occultist opponent says, ‘I don’t agree with you’–you have deprived him of his ‘out’ defenses which *always* take the form of casting the encounter in terms of morality or psychopathology with himself playing the role of the ‘Great Soul’ or Expert looking down from above on the animalistic animosities animating lesser beings (such as Buddha, Nagarjuna, Samkara, Plato, Hume, Emerson, Thoreau, etc.).” –Art Kleps
That’s funny coming from Art Kleps.
Do go on.
@ djm: Uh oh, this site has put my sarcasm meter out of commission. I actually had to think for a while if “(not being sarcastic)” was written sarcastically.
@RSH: I had hoped my earlier post about living in loyal-conviction world (nicer term than delusional world) would help people appreciate the rest of the my posts better. Apparently not. A lot of what I was typing yesterday was done either tongue-in-cheek or with a heavy dose of ignore reality. Though Riley WAS a big issue for me. Still liked a lot of the season, including the plot. I would hate if they would totally reboot the show! Though I would watch another Terminator style show as well. I just really liked the first season. And I like the idea of a future that doesn’t know John Connor.
I never watched a full installment of a reality show, ever, but they are paying for network TV, and allowing networks to experiment and take risks on the scripted side. I don’t begrudge them, or the people that watch them. I fail to see the appeal, but I don’t see them as competition, more as an income source that can be tapped to make better scripted TV. Remember when TV couldn’t afford quality sets, location shoots, or decent special effects?
When a bad scripted show dies, it only opens the space for a new scripted show, hopefully a better one. It is not like Mondays, the original night of TSCC, PB, and the where DH was expected to premiere is going to be overtaken by reality TV. Friday’s, on Fox, was already the home of reality TV’s, or the elephant cemetery where bad shows go to die.
What the Fox experiment of scheduling Friday nights proved, is that there aren’t enough social outcasts, that would stay at home on a Friday night ogling Glau, Dusku, or Wentworth Miller, because they can’t get a real date, to fuel those shows. That has to be a thing to rejoice about.
JustTunedIn, first season wasn’t bad except for the high school stuff. Had they just expanded and developed the aspects of season one in season two, they might still have a show. Instead, they went totally off the rails.
You HAVE to reboot the show. Nobody, i.e., the wider audience that tuned in and left, is going to watch what it is now. And you can’t go anywhere from where they left it – they nailed too much down, deliberately I think just to shaft the show.
A show set in a future where John Connor is not known is just too unlikely to work – it’s completely outside the framework of the franchise. It’s hubris for Friedman to think he can re-write the franchise. The franchise could be expanded but not re-written.
Not to mention that the whole “alternate time line” concept is just a nightmare from a sci-fi and storytelling aspect. They really jumped the shark with that finale. The holes in it are legion. It absolutely made no sense whatsoever. It was on a par with Battlestar Galactica’s “God did it” finale, apparently, considering some of the BSG fans complaints.
The show should have been working with the two main elements of the franchise: 1) dodging Terminators trying to kill John Connor, and 2) stopping Skynet, with an emphasis on the latter since the former would get old fairly quick on a weekly basis, if not a seasonal basis.
The primary focus of the show should be on the relationship between humans and AIs, not merely an antagonistic one but also a positive one via John and Cameron, as it was in T-2 and T-3. But also expand that to explore actual comparisons between the sort of consciousness an AI has versus the sort of consciousness a human has, the logical vs emotional conflict that was well represented by Kirk and Spock in the old Star Trek series. In short, a more Transhumanist view which could be compared to the neo-Luddite view of Sarah Connor. The conflict of those two world views, as well the Christian world view as represented by agent Ellison, would have been valuable.
Cameron should have been a totally independent AI, due to some accident of programming, no longer under the control of either Skynet or Connor. That would have allowed her to have her own motivations and goals which could be woven into the story, allowing for both cooperation and conflict with the Connors and rich character exploration and character development of both her and John.
It never made any sense that Cameron was trying to seduce John in “Vic’s Chip”season one and in “Mr. Ferguson” in season two unless she had her own goals. Friedman never developed that track because he was intent on minimizing Cameron’s importance vs that of Sarah Connor. He BS’d everybody at WonderCon with the idea that both Sarah and Cameron were “alpha” characters and couldn’t both be worked well, which was nonsense. Bouncing two alphas off each other would have been terrific story telling. He was just obsessed with Sarah Connor as a “symbol of mortality” to the detriment of everything else.
Brian Austin Green in his latest interview was saying that if John Connor was already bad-ass that there would be no room for the character to grow. I say it’s a matter of degree. Connor should have been represented as more adult than he was, instead of first being a whiny emo boy in season one, then an idiot in season two.
BAG also said that if everybody just ran and shot the show would be boring. Nobody ever said that was the alternative, so it’s a straw man. And even if it was, it was have had better ratings than what Friedman managed to produce.
There’s just too much about the show as it is that simply can’t be made to work in a resurrected version, and if they try a season 3 with that stuff it will tank faster than season 2 – if it even gets initial ratings above season 2, which is unlikely. I don’t think anybody at Fox or WB sees the point of seeing how low the show can go. Can it go under two million viewers? Can it go under one million viewers? What’s the point? It’s not going to trend up by any stretch of the imagination.
Richard Steven Hack says:
“The holes in it are legion. It absolutely made no sense whatsoever.”
Amen.
Nearly 10% of all posts reference the word ‘chuck’ – for Friday ratings. Such a shame Friday isn’t working out for FOX. Looks like it’s back to less scripted shows on the air soon.
ghost whisperer is the best..i hope that they make season 5.because it my fevorite:X:X::X:X:X:X
@RSH: I didn’t think the future without John Connor neccessarily had to go against the franchise. He CAN still BECOME John Connor that the franchise knows. In fact, by not going through the initial parts of the war but coming in later with a terminator willing to work with him it makes more sense why he becomes the leader. He can then go about sending people back. Not exactly a time loop but even the movies supported that the future could change based on actions in the past. Why try to kill Sarah Connor in the first place otherwise.
The initial and biggest bleed in viewers was for the season premiere which dropped 2 million from the previous season. So either the season 1 finale was horrible or people didn’t know the show was coming back on or something, but it looks like people were already gone before the season started, so the season arc itself can’t be faulted alone for the drop.
And let’s be honest, you’re not a fan. A FAN is defined as “An ardent devotee; an enthusiast” and “One who ardently admires”. I just bring this up because people mention that your view of the show holds more weight for them because you are a “fan”. You have been very obvious about your dislike for the show in every forum I’ve come across. I would be more sympathetic if you WERE a fan of the first season and then were rightly dissappointed with the second season but even that you consider was only “not bad”. Hardly enthusiastic or ardent admiration. I’m sorry it didn’t fit your concept of a Terminator show, as you do seem to be a fan of the franchise and have good ideas for a show based on that franchise. It fit mine so I guess I was lucky.
Considering the majority of shows that are produced, I’ve been pretty lucky that I did get T:TSCC and Firefly and Castle, even if they were short lived. If all shows just went for the highest ratings I would probably be reading a lot more books! I get some limited run excellent seasons, and I guess I’m lucky to get even that. I read the fan fiction to see how people would have taken the shows in other directions to make up for the lack of new material. Guess I’ll be going to find some good T:TSCC stuff now.
Aside from Dollhouse and the shows we already know are in their last season (PB – I always read that as Peanut Butter and it makes me giggle), what other shows are at risk on Friday? They all seem to have very weak ratings other than GW which typically does much better than this week has done.
JustTunedIn, Numb3rs and Ghost Whisperer are definitely safe. They both usually see much better numbers than these. Flashpoint is cheap, but I’m not positive CBS will keep it at these numbers. It probably works better as a summer show.
ABC is all unscripted, and has almost all been renewed anyway.
NBC, Dateline is for sure safe. For some reason I have a recollection that Howie Do It was renewed, but if it wasn’t, I would guess it’s gone.
CW is dumping its half hour sitcoms, so they are both dead.
@Julia: Thanks. I’m trying to figure out what Fridays will look like next fall. I like having atleast one show to watch per night. I even program them into my Outlook Calendar. I work away from home a lot so it’s nice to have an episode of something to look forward to since I don’t go out-on-the-town so much when I’m travelling by myself.
For example I don’t really like anything that plays on Thursdays, so the only thing I look for on Friday when it comes online is Germany’s Next Top Model! (In german too, and no, I don’t speak German though I have learned a phrase or two. Like: Ich bin ein Top Model! I used to type it as Ich bein ein Top Model! Which I just learned means: I leg top model!).
Poor Dollhouse.
As a huge fan of Joss’s work, I’ve tried to be as optimistic as possible. I still think that Dollhouse is a very interesting show; it just isn’t the right show at the right time.
I can see this going one of two ways. The unlikely way is that Fox actually manages to convince some advertisers that the Nielsen ratings are a poor indicator of the viewership of a niche show like Dollhouse, and that the iTunes, Hulu, and DVD numbers are a better indication. I doubt that would fly, but (independently of Dollhouse’s fate) I do think that the Nielsen system needs to be replaced.
The likely way is that Dollhouse gets canceled. Joss abandons television as a whole in favor of the Internet as a broadcast medium. The entire world marvels at his extraordinary success, and more eyeballs become unglued from the TV long enough to glue themselves to the computer screen. Network television slowly plummets into oblivion, and we see the dawning of a new, more enlightened model for entertainment distribution. Yes, I’d say that’s likely indeed.
PS: Network TV, this is what you get for over-emphasizing the immediate bottom line (reality TV) at the expense of shows which will earn you a reputation for serving the viewers what they want, earning you long-term benefits of loyal viewership. Of course, this is all just speculation from a thrice-burned Fox viewer (Firefly, Wonderfalls, and now Dollhouse).
@RSH: Maybe I spoke to quickly. I have a love-hate relationship with ANTM. I hate how it’s gotten so stupid, yet it is must-see-tv for me. I like the genre so much that I watch as many of the international versions as possible. I even have Wednesday night dinner nights with a friend to watch the episode together. And we both complain about Tyra throughout the episode and how ugly all the contestants are this season. So if you feel similar about T:TSCC I can sort of get it. Though I want ANTM to be renewed, and I did love previous seasons, and snarking on it is part of the enjoyment.
I guess if I thought about it a little bit more I wouldn’t call myself a fan of it. I watch it religiously, but if it did get cancelled I wouldn’t be so bothered because so many of the international versions are so much better. I’m also not an ardent admirere of it, though quite enthusiastic. If GNTM was to be cancelled or replaced Heidi Klum with someone else I would be extremely bummed, so I’m probably more a fan of that show.
I think I just went through some circular reasoning there and ended up back where I started. Anyway, just coming to understand how you can not be a fan of the show but feel invested at the same time.
Rob can I suggest you reanalyse your statsitics because you clearly didn’t do it right the first time around. Terminator absolutely has bled viewers since day one and it absolutely was moved to Friday because it died. It was getting beaten by Chuck for God’s sake!
@Rob
“Just ignore Alex and richardstevenhacks all their facts are 90% wrong and they are just haters.”
I agree with this statement except for the 90% wrong bit. I’ve been ignoring Alex’s (both here and on the Monday threads discussing Chuck)and RSH’s comments for weeks now. Not because I think their conclusions are necessarily wrong, but after you read their first ten or fifteen posts you don’t need to read the next 200+ rehashes (even if some of the words have been changed).
I find I can read the comments in half the time just by ignoring these two commenters. LOL!
@S.
“I never watched a full installment of a reality show, ever, but they are paying for network TV, and allowing networks to experiment and take risks on the scripted side. I don’t begrudge them, or the people that watch them. I fail to see the appeal, but I don’t see them as competition, more as an income source that can be tapped to make better scripted TV.”
I agree totally. Other than the things pertaining to football and the occasional episode of America’s Funniest Videos I’ve never seen a single episode of anything listed on the unscripted Renew/Cancel list. But its hard to deny that some of the more popular reality programs can help give a boost to new scripted programs and help them to find an audience.
“I love DH, so obviously I’m bummed to see such horrid ratings.”
Desperate Housewives does not have horrid ratings. Now if you are talking about Dollhouse, then yes it does. Remember people, DH is Desperate Housewives as it has been since it premiered.
RJ, despite the 1.3 last night (final numbers) DOLLHOUSE continues to average higher ratings than previous shows on Friday nights on FOX counting the game shows this season. A lot of shows are being hurt by Spring & Day Light Savings Time. There is a reason that in the past most shows are finished up sooner. The push of February Sweeps back really is going to hurt the ratings of some shows. Thursday and Friday showed some rather low numbers in comparison to weeks past.
If FOX is bringing it back for another night of the week, they’re going to get that nights advert premium boost, and the ability to claim the show averaged 4th place for the night of Friday for the season in C3 ratings. No one has any idea how the show would do on another night (I’d say 6M viewers if the lead in for FOX, and anywhere from 6.5M to 8M depending on the show it followed). The show is profitable, and if it remains as cheap as it is that makes it appealing in that regard.
The show needed to trend up last night, it didn’t. We’re talking a bubble show that didn’t trend up, but everything dropped. So it remains on the bubble. I don’t think the bubble burst, but since it didn’t trend up like I said it needed to, it’s not safe for renewal. It’s in limbo.
Personally, I wouldn’t renew it unless I wanted a Friday show to air for 13 episodes during a certain time of the season. If it fit for that (knowing the show is profitable) to add some profits to the bottom line then you go for it.
It’s all about money in the end. It’s profitable, so a short run during otherwise down times might not be a bad business decision.
“(I’d say 6M viewers if the lead in for FOX, and anywhere from 6.5M to 8M depending on the show it followed)”
6.5 million to 8 million is quite low for FOX.
“Flashpoint is cheap, but I’m not positive CBS will keep it at these numbers. It probably works better as a summer show. ”
I think they will try something new next fall. However considering Flashpoint is cheap and its seasons are short anyway, they may consider renewing it for midseason to use it as a filler if the new series fails (and if it isn’t, use it in the summer)
RJ, yes that would be low in overalls. You do know they don’t matter right? It’s the demo that matters, and I believe it would pull a 2.6 to 3.0 with the low 6.5M overalls. If it was 8M I would guess 3.4 to 4.0 somewhere in that range.
Nick, since we all know total viewers doesn’t matter, why did you bother predicting using those numbers at all? Just so you could condescend to RJ for calling attention to that?
Julia, nope. I threw those numbers out because it’s easier to predict that than the demo. We just know the show will continue to skew young, so it would have a higher demo than most shows with that type of over all.
@Nick C and RJ, one problem with your viewers/demo numbers theories if Dollhouse were on a different night:
Dollhouse would be LUCKY to pull in more than 5 million total, 2.0 to 2.3 in the demo (using rough math of 0.40-0.45 times total viewers = 18/49 demo, as that calculation seems to hold up for Dollhouse). The viewing public, quite frankly, is not particularly interested in this series.
How did Dollhouse do in the panels – you know, the ones that spell doom and gloom for Fringe
?
I think this site should change is URL to: Itsthedemothatmatters.com
Considering its success, how come we aren’t seeing copy cat shows of Ghost Whisperer?
http://www.zap2it.com/tv/ratings/zap-tv-ratings-042409,0,4579410.story
“NBC with a 2.1/4 inched out FOX despite the new episode of “Prison Break” with a 2.0/4.”
Must be a mistake I assume?
Dave, I believe Zap2It uses household ratings instead of viewer totals, so those numbers are probably referring to households, while that 1.2 for Dollhouse here refers to the 18-49 demo.
JustTunedIn: I don’t describe myself as a fan precisely because it implies uncritical acceptance of whatever the fan is a fan of! I’ve said that before.
However, I will repeat my history with TSCC. I downloaded the original pilot, not the pilot that aired, even before the show came on the air. I was very interested in the show and discussed it with other people and followed every bit of the story in season one, reasoning out where it might go. I really like the show. It is only in retrospect that I see the high school stuff as being a problem, especially since they really didn’t overdo it in season one.
I have watched every single episode of this show. Most of the episodes I enjoyed to the degree that they weren’t horrible – and most of them weren’t horrible (with the possible exception of “Alpine Fields” and first three episodes after the hiatus. But by that time, the problems were becoming extremely noticeable. Season two was very little like season one.
You can claim that just because I’m critical that I always disliked the show all you want, you’re just totally wrong about that. I was VERY invested in this show which is why I’m pissed that it went into the toilet. I’ve said that over and over everywhere, but people would rather believe I never liked the show just because I was never an uncritical simpering “fan” who applauded as it went into the toilet.
This is what pisses me off about the TSCC fans. If they’d been a little more critical, maybe Friedman would have listened and changed course. Unlikely I know, but it would have been better than cheerleading it to death.
I attribute the season premiere drop precisely to the fact that many viewers just didn’t know when the show would be back on. That’s not surprising. What that doesn’t explain is the continual bleed thereafter on Mondays and then additional bleed on Fridays. There is no other explanation except the problems with the show. All this stuff about scheduling and competition is irrelevant because every show has to deal with that. You either succeed in being compelling or you don’t.
Nick C: I predict next week’s Dollhouse will drop some more, despite it being the first episode with the rogue Doll in it. What will you say then? I predict you’ll STILL argue that it could be renewed.
You have some investment in this, and I suspect it’s because you’re reporting from Fox “insiders” and you don’t want that information to be considered suspect. So they have to be “considering renewal” right up to the moment when they cancel. Which is precisely what they may be doing – as usual. That doesn’t mean Dollhouse is “on the bubble” any more than TSCC is – it just means they haven’t announced cancellation and may never do so.
You keep saying the Fox execs are “considering renewal” but never say WHY. “It’s profitable”? If that’s true, why are we talking about Dollhouse at all? Can we really believe Fox will bring back a show that is likely to trend down or remain at very low numbers at best just because they made a buck on it this season because of another factor like Remote Free rather than the show itself? I doubt it.
Well TSCC did recover from the Friday crash, to about where it premiered. I’m not saying it’s good enough to renew the show because of it, but it stopped bleeding.
I bet Chuck misses TSCC on Mondays now, one show it could actually beat on the ratings.
It seems easy to keep predicting a PB/DH drop, one show is a goner so it won’t build an audience. It’s safer bet than saying PB will premiere on Fridays with a 1.6.
Right?
I hope Fox renews Dollhouse for just one more season … I am obsessed with this show and can’t wait to watch it every week!
I respect Richard Steven Hack’s thoughts because he’s fair on the series, having watched the episodes and been informed about what’s happening both on screen and with what people are saying.
I however, do NOT respect Robert Seidman or his personal cheerleader Alex, who instead of only reporting the ratings FACTS, like this site claims to do, make it their personal business to take cheap shots and jabs at shows they don’t care for. All that was needed is to post the numbers, and say if it was either better or worse than last week.
Then again, they know that by doing their routine, they are getting people on their site, if nothing else to voice their disapproval with how they are talking about the shows, and that is more important I guess.
As it stands, TSCC is still not canceled, and there’s still a chance for something to happen. That is 100% fact. Is the current outlook very bleak? Yes it is, and I am ready to accept it not returning.
Just do me a favor okay, and try to be more neutral when reporting ratings news here. If you have something to say of your own, please say “In my opinion”. You have a right to your opinion, just try to remember to keep it separate from the actual facts.
You make some valid points Mr. Heck, but I think TSCC can STILL turn it around and redeem itself in the third season if done the right way.
Joss has already stated that fox understand we don’t live in a nielsen world anymore. They know that DVR numbers and Hulu viewings count. Dollhouse can be a performer, but people are so afraid to get attached seeing as how people like this blogger kept saying it’s already dead in the water that they don’t watch it. Why fall in love again when it’s going to lead to an unfulfilled ending?
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/04/dollhouse-joss-whedon-fox-eliza-dushku.html
that’s the full article. check it out.
Matt, in the end, even with DVR, the numbers for Dollhouse still suck. The Hulu numbers aren’t awful, just not enough to matter. The DVD numbers, will matter, but it is hard to guess at.
Well, Prison Break was 0.2 lower with the demo, but I wouldn’t have thought it would wind up with more overall viewers than Dollhouse.
Dollhouse’s chances of survival may be one in a million, its only hope is that Fox’s fall llneups are usually pretty thin until the midseason.
The interview with Whedon is interesting because he reveals, perhaps unintentionally, just how little he knew what he was doing with this show.
There are several comments in there where he basically says outright, “I didn’t know where I was going with this” – and it seems he still doesn’t.
He tossed in the “Haunting” stand alone which in my view was a mistake and he acknowledges it’s going to be considered a mistake. I don’t know why show runners can’t seem to grasp the notion of “momentum”. Do not start something interesting, then interrupt it! Do these guys all have problems with coitus interruptus at home or something?
His acknowledgment that originally the Dollhouse would be a spinoff of a corporation that was doing good works with research being funded by this “naughty” operation was changed by Fox into the organization being part of something more sinister. I can certainly see that as an improvement. Making the Dollhouse part of a big conspiracy is far more interesting than limiting it to the single Dollhouse which appears to have been Joss’ original conception. But it also shows how much Whedon really didn’t know where to go with the show.
He also argues that it’s not right to blame Fox for the initial stand alone episodes entirely, that Fox had some good reasons for asking for them. Personally I think the problem was they didn’t alternate the stand alone episodes with the mythology shows, and/or they didn’t integrate them quite as much as, say, Fringe does.
At this point, I think there’s enough issues with the initial season that have sealed its fate. I can’t see Fox trying another 13 episodes on the off chance it will really pick up even if they did make money on this season via the Remote Free. If the show had done just a bit better, they might have.
I think the low numbers for Dollhouse shouldn’t be attributed to the lead in. I was hoping Prison Break would do good for it but it didn’t. The show is a great one. The process is slow in figuring things out. Get little bits of information here and there. It’s not a fast-paced and standalone kind of thing like many popular shows are now, like CSI for instance. Also, it was sold strongly as this kind of sexy, sleazy thing and when that didn’t happen, some people were probably upset. But the real reason why it’s failing is because it’s science fiction. If anything has been proved in the past few years about science fiction shows or movies it’s that they aren’t faring well at all. So, you combine those all together and you have a recipe for disaster. It’s a really smart show and it’s good, Fox just really couldn’t have it that way. I do believe it should be moved to a different channel, like USA or Sci-Fi. It would perform a lot better I would believe. I want it back and I want it to play out completely. I hate having loose ends.
Watched Prison Break — great characters and a lot of fast paced fun. Very adventurous. Tried to stick around for Dollhouse, but gave up after a few moments. It was so cheesy and the dialogue was cliche. Are the writers even trying or did they give up when they realized what a mess this show was?
“If it was 8M I would guess 3.4 to 4.0 somewhere in that range.”
Most shows on tv cant get that today, so I doubt Dollhouse would. It would be lucky to get a 2.0 demo again.
RSH, you know I hear a lot of people comment on the stand alone episodes as being a mistake but it does seem like the ratings didn’t REALLY nosedive until the mythology episodes started.
Prison Break is Still On?
“DULL” HOUSE – its going to be cancelled. Its even duller than Prison Break – which should have ended long ago.
Fridays is pretty much a wasteland.
Richard, I think that the problem was that Whedon couldn’t make up his mind whether the Dollhouse was morally grey or evil and that showed in the writing of the show- you yourself have said that you didn’t realize that some of the Dolls, in Whedon’s words, “seem clearly not to have” volunteered and Adelle was an evil b*tch.
@Robert – you keep saying that Hulu numbers “aren’t enough to matter” without ever posting actual Hulu numbers.
Are you able to show actual numbers or revenue for shows streamed on Hulu?
And if you don’t know, why do you keep mentioning them?
For a “fact based” site, you seem to be doing a lot of guessing.
T-Fan, we know the money gained via online viewing is pennies compared to TV advertising today based on lots of reports that you’re welcome to search for on this site or elsewhere. There are also lots of online viewing numbers on this site as well. None for Hulu.com, because they don’t as yet disclose them, but for plenty of other sites.
Short version: Ratings for live viewing have alays been the yardstick for profitability. That worked great when the only revenue stream was ad sales.
Now there are multiple revenue streams, and us schlubs can see only one.
My case for TSCC having a potential for renewal is not [fennish squeal]“oooohhh, i just luv that show!” [/fennish squeal]. I do love the show but that’s not it. To me, TSCC is a really nice model of what the future of determining television show profitability will look like, not too long from now and at least for a while. (”A while” being however long it takes to move the whole shebang to the family computer.)
Dianne, TSCC does not profit from any of the current alternate revenue streams. The DVD sales were poor. Online viewing for ANY SHOW does not turn a significant profit yet. (We know this even if there are no exact figures available.) Illegal downloads will never be considered a revenue stream because that legitimizes piracy. If you can show me just where it is that TSCC is this great model for the future, you may just win me over to your line of reasoning. So far you’ve offered nothing.
@Julia – again with no numbers to back up your statement.
How do you know TSCC doesn’t profit from additional revenue? You don’t know what Hulu is bringing in or paying out. Nor do you know what Fox charges for add space for their streaming – or how many times TSCC was downloaded from their site.
Do you know how much they charged Dodge for the add space or where their general P&L figures break even?
That’s not to say the ratings are down. Live viewership is down. That’s the only thing I see you able to back up.
Everything else is guesswork. And since no actual DVD sales figures are released, it’s pretty interesting to see you say those are poor.
It didn’t top the chart, but could have been steady, like Firefly. You don’t know.
Anyway, I really think this site could do a lot more to present a better argument. Or refrain from using arguments that you can’t prove to support another.
If TSCC profited enough from other sources then it will get a Season 3. But it wont. Live viewership is 90%+ of revenues even now. Thats what matters- as well as the key advertising demos of 18-49 and 18-34 the groups advertisers pay the most for.
Every time a low rated shows gets axed people bring up other revenue sources for reasons it shouldnt be axed. Its just whistling past the graveyard. If TSCC was getting 6-8 million viewers, then other sources of revenues might help it. But it wasnt even close. Networks just cant afford to keep expensive money losing shows on the air.
There’s really only 2 options for TSCC it gets a lower budget and goes to a smaller network or it goes bye bye. More then likely it’s going to go bye bye just like Dollhouse. I watch both shows and think their decent however business is business. Oh and by the way common sense would have dictated TSCC to be a better lead in then Prison Break as Friday is known for it’s Sci Fi shows from SGA to BSG.
fox was good for cancelling shows like drive they too pulled the last 2 episodes (after they scheduled them for july 4th) then stuck them online on their myspace. then left us hanging! they could’ve at least gave it another chance, or at least a proper farewell. same goes for prison break. they had a “shortened by the strike” 3rd season, now they cancelled the show after they picked up at the 4th season.