Not that it surprised anyone at all, but Fox announced the full season renewal for Fringe this week.
With CBS, I’m sure Robert and I will be all over the map on our guesses of show renewal prospects, not so with Fox. There is absolutely no drama in their existing show renewal and cancellation announcements.
Certain to be canceled: Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles, Dollhouse & Sit Down, Shut Up.
Certain to be renewed: Bones, Family Guy, Lie To Me, House.
‘Til Death has done terribly, and has been off Fox’s schedule since October, Sony Pictures has reportedly made Fox such a sweet deal for future episodes that Fox has bought another entire season, proving that at a low enough price that even a ratings black hole is worth suffering through.
This is a breakdown of Fox scripted shows and their renewal and cancelation prospects. Here are the others:
Our Renew / Cancel index predicts potential renewal for *next* season: Canceled/Not Returning, In Danger, or Renewal Likely for 2009-10, Renewal Announced.
| PROGRAM | Net | STD 18-49 Rating (LIVE+SD) | Network Avg. STD 18-49 rating | Renew/ Cancel index | Status |
| TERMINATOR: SARAH CONNOR CHRONICLES (FRI) | FOX | 1.25 | 2.67 | 0.47 | |
| DOLLHOUSE | FOX | 1.5 | 2.67 | 0.56 | |
| DO NOT DISTURB | FOX | 1.6 | 2.67 | 0.60 | canceled |
| SIT DOWN SHUT UP | FOX | 1.7 | 2.67 | 0.64 | |
| TIL DEATH | FOX | 1.8 | 2.67 | 0.67 | |
| PRISON BREAK | FOX | 2.1 | 2.67 | 0.79 | final season |
| AMERICAN DAD | FOX | 2.7 | 2.67 | 1.01 | |
| KING OF THE HILL | FOX | 2.8 | 2.67 | 1.05 | final season* |
| BONES | FOX | 2.9 | 2.67 | 1.08 | |
| SIMPSONS | FOX | 3.1 | 2.67 | 1.16 | |
| FAMILY GUY | FOX | 3.5 | 2.67 | 1.31 | |
| LIE TO ME | FOX | 3.5 | 2.67 | 1.31 | |
| FRINGE | FOX | 3.6 | 2.67 | 1.35 | |
| 24 | FOX | 3.7 | 2.67 | 1.38 | |
| HOUSE | FOX | 4.7 | 2.67 | 1.76 |
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The Renew/Cancel Index is a show’s Season To Date adults 18-49 viewership divided by its networks Season to Date average 18-49 viewership.
Note that the Fox average used above is its final Season to Date average prior to American Idol (see below).
Notes:
*King of the Hill: Fox declined to renew King of the Hill, but has enough new episodes so that they will be airing well into 2009, through early fall by some reports.
Prison Break is in its final season.
Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles: The numbers above are for only its Friday airings that began on February 13, 2009. FYI, It’s 13 episode 18-49 average on Monday this season was 2.726 million (which is an average 18-49 rating of 2.1).
How did we come up with our Index? We found that last season, the future of a show was nearly directly related to its adults 18-49 average viewers divided by its networks 18-49 average viewers. Many other factors may matter, but they all seemed to boil down to that one number. Because American Idol so skewed Fox’s 18-49 average, and would make nearly all Fox shows fall into the “cancel” range, for Fox, I used the last STD 18-49 average *before* Idol. Last season, if a show had better than 92% of its network’s average 18-49 viewership (0.92 in our index) it was pretty safe, below that level it was in danger.
Remember that plenty can change before the end of the season, particularly for the shows with indexes between 0.80 and last season’s renewal line of 0.92. The list is presented in a (and has to be, since I cannot predict future ratings) “what would happen if the season ended today” mode. Could the renewal line be 0.86 this season? Possibly. It might also be 0.95. Might it be 0.70? No chance.
Nielsen TV Ratings Data: ©2009 The Nielsen Company. All Rights Reserved. All viewership numbers are Live+SD.
I wonder when and how Fox is going to air ‘Til Death. Every summer Sunday at 7:00 and 7:30?
demonhog, I’ve written it before: ‘Til Death Independence Day Marathon!
There will only be drama if Fox renews Dollhouse. That won’t happen.
Can’t wait to see FOX’s front up presentation
I hope Sit down Shut Up stays around – better than Seth’s stuff
To the TSCC fan(s) who come here to be ridiculed and/or depressed, this might make you a little happier: Summer Glau (Cameron) has been approached by the producers of the upcoming Terminator movies (5 and 6) about possibly appearing in those movies. (This comes straight from an interview of Summer at FedCon in Germany)
Yes, I’ve read that interview with Summer. Equally important for her fans, she’s up for a new movie which she really wants to do and is merely waiting for TSCC cancellation to be confirmed before accepting.
Nobody needs to worry about Summer being out of work. She’s really popular and has been working pretty steady for years.
Maybe Fox could do a one off Special to end both series….
Terminator (SG) v The Dolls
I can see the Press Release now…..
“In an unprecedented double Series Finale watch the excitement as Summer Glau discovers that The Dollhouse is a secret organisation developed by Skynet to test implant technology into Human Terminators. Watch the exciting conclusion as the invades the Dollhouse and fights with the Dolls to the death. PG 9pm EC and C”
In fairness, though I’ve enjoyed both shows, neither has lived up to it’s potential or expectation so far IMHO.
@Richard Steven Hack
“Nobody needs to worry about Summer being out of work. ”
Does anyone ever? When they cancel a show that I like I worry for ME – not them.
I’m still optimistic for Terminator’s renewal. I just wish I could give a valid or positive reason as to why.
Question is will Kiefer Sutherland be in jail again and interfere with Season 8?
CraigUK, heh, Cameron would eat all the Dolls for breakfast, then ask John for pancakes (HER recipe, not Sarah’s!) LOL
Kermode: I worry about Summer being out of work because then I won’t see her as often. So yeah, I worry for ME, not her.
She spent the last week or two I guess in Europe with her two sisters on a vacation since she had to attend the Starfury convention in England a week or two ago and FedCon in Germany this past weekend. Even though she had a bad cold, she showed up for FedCon anyway, still looking chipper as any of the Dollhouse Dolls. A real living Doll as it were.
No surrender TSCC fans! If we give up, Skynet and TvByTheNumbers win!
I wish King of the Hill was coming back. That’s the only show I watch on Fox. Family Guy has been going downhill since season 3, and isn’t even that funny anymore.
OMG, Summer in T5/T6????!!! YES!!!!!!!
Now THAT’s what I’m talkin’ about!!!
(and for those who know who I am, I give you my greetings. Yeah, I still come here every so often for possible GOOD news like this.
)
Eliza just twittered that Dollhouse HAS NOT been cancelled.
Ted, that doesn’t mean it has even a sliver of a chance at renewal. It’s gone.
Ted, poor Brooke Shields kept up the farce that Lipstick Jungle wasn’t dead for so long it became an embarrassment.
Ted’s account isn’t all that accurate. Several days ago Eliza did tweet the truth (that they haven’t been told the show is canceled yet). But today, after getting off the phone with Whedon her message is the desperate-ish plea:
Just hung up w/Joss-man listen up:if u want/need/desire more WheDush~Dollhouse finale 2morrow night 9p FOX. Tell your f*!in friends. xo
I don’t see her going all Brooke Shields on us.
I didn’t mean to imply Eliza was going Brooke Shields on us. (For her sake, I hope not.) Simply that messages from show actors cannot be relied upon as fact.
Dear tvbythenumbers….
i’m so happy to read on your site your usual comment about TSCC.
It’s only a rite:”cancellation, cancellation, cancellation”.
With your great satisfacion, as we can see on this months !
I don’t understand why don’you recognize a little of TSCC’s enormous artistic value.
Yes, it’s easier to evaluate numbers only , as you are expected to do…
But in the end, you continue givin’ TSCC for canceled, than you mark it in orange, (in doubt). Very funny !
Maybe you’re not sure of anything…like all us human beings. Terrifying, isn’t it? This is what make you nice to me
TSCC fans, DON’T GIVE Up and do our works!
Fightin now, talkin then.
FFFOOOXXX AND WWAARRNNNEERRR BRRROOOSS !!!
NO FATE!!!
Fox hasn’t cancelled Dollhouse OR Terminator yet. They won’t make the announcement until May 18th.
April 18 is the date when will find out if TSCC will be renewed. Until then and on that date, will we know for sure. Keep bombarding Fox with emails, vote in the polls, call and email the sponsors, its not over yet!
Sorry, I meant May 18.
Star, let me end your suspense. TSCC will not be renewed.
Don’t make claims that shows are definatly cancelled when the official word comes on the 18th, us TSCC fans are used to this kind of stuff and it will only make us laugh harder when we get season 3.
you said right, HBOMB !!
@Kermode
That’s just down right Selfish!
Nothings for sure yet i’ll just keep voting for TSCC *Crosses fingers*
Lets go TSCC fans!!
No fate But what WE make for are selfs!
On your feet soldiers!!
@Julia
Think what you will.
NO FATE!
I discovered TV by the Numbers somewhat by accident since I never cared for any rating. It is for me quite a strange spectacle to contemplate: here I see a bunch of people who are fascinated by statistics, who seems to put all their faith into the omnipotent numbers. You are all watching a race and, in all appearances, you couldn’t care less about TV or shows, the artists, the writers… Again and again you repeat the same mantra with immense satisfaction: if the show doesn’t have the Numbers it must die.
I think that you are mostly here because you find security and power in Numbers.
Show with low rating which were able to mature and thrive for years afterward aren’t rare. They’ve even contributed some of the best TV ever because they survived on quality, courage and dedication, all human qualities.
innocent,
“here I see a bunch of people who are fascinated by statistics, who seems to put all their faith into the omnipotent numbers. You are all watching a race and, in all appearances, you couldn’t care less about TV or shows, the artists, the writers… Again and again you repeat the same mantra with immense satisfaction: if the show doesn’t have the Numbers it must die.”
Not quite “it must die”, more like it *will* die. Otherwise, while you’re obviously not a fan of the site, your description is pretty accurate, at least for me.
I think that you are mostly here because you find security and power in Numbers.
Not so much “security and power”, but a rational, explainable way of how things are and why they work as they do.
Show with low rating which were able to mature and thrive for years afterward aren’t rare. They’ve even contributed some of the best TV ever because they survived on quality, courage and dedication, all human qualities.
Certainly a lovely vision. Care to provide recent examples?
two hour Virtuality pilot is airing on July 4:
http://www.thefutoncritic.com/news.aspx?id=8081
that doesn’t seem like particularly good news for Virtuality, but it lays to rest any chance of a ‘Til Death marathon on July 4th extending into prime-time…
“it lays to rest any chance of a ‘Til Death marathon on July 4th extending into prime-time…”
Dammit! Back to my imaginary TV scheduling drawing board!
Dear Mr.Gorman,
i’m gonna ask you a few questions:
1) Do you have other sources , more than numbers, about TSCC cancellation? Interview, rumors, declarations? Because we can speculate a lot till May 18, but we are on opposite sides, it’s clear…maybe you are well informed, more than us. Maybe not. If this is, peace !
2) Why did you put TSCC “canceled”first, then “in danger” in the article?
This is a non sense. If you are sure 100 %, you can easily take the responsability to put TSCC in “canceled”. Or maybe, as i think, there are 0 certainties about “cancelation” or “renewal by FOX for now.
Yes this can mean everything…but your article is not so clear. For example, there are not information about 18 may, day in wich FOX will announce official renewal and cancellation.
About numbers…it’s your work ! Not mine.
Greetings
This site relies too much on statistics and data-derived definites. Technically TSCC should be cancelled. But that doesn’t mean it will.
Veran, there are certainly cases where it doesn’t make sense to rely exclusively on the numbers, but TSCC is not one of those cases.
These guys just get off on ragging on TSCC while whoring the site out to Chuck fans. If TSCC is renewed I hope they will shut the site down and bury their heads in sand.
Wess, yes, because CHUCK had average ratings on NBC, and TSCC had way, way, way below average numbers on FOX. If CHUCK had aired on FOX and pulled similar numbers to what it pulled on NBC, it would be in much, much, much worse shape than it is.
Fanboys don’t seem to get that renewal prospects are very tied to a shows situation. Not that Chuck didn’t have better numbers than TSCC even when they went head-to-head on Monday, but because Chuck is on NBC, its prospects for renewal are much better.
Not quite “it must die”, more like it *will* die. Otherwise, while you’re obviously not a fan of the site, your description is pretty accurate, at least for me.
Not a fan or the submissive attitude mostly. The prevalence of ratings is, IMHO, responsible for the very poor quality of the TV programming nowadays.
Not so much “security and power”, but a rational, explainable way of how things are and why they work as they do.
Can we settle for ‘comfort’ then ?
Show with low rating which were able to mature and thrive…
Certainly a lovely vision. Care to provide recent examples?
I watch so little TV, barely 1-2 hours a week so it is hard for me to say. I believe that the X-Files are cited frequently as an example of that. Wasn’t ‘How I met your mother’ doing very poorly and now it is doing OK? Or so I heard.
I have faith in Sarah Connor Chronicles: it has all the potential in the world at this point and should grow into a success, if FOX starts promoting it for what it is and not like a horny teen show only.
Then again, TV is such a cutthroat business for the execs who are trying to survive in it. It will become very rare to find one of them with the necessary vision and courage to actually make the numbers rather than submit to them.
I missed Brooke, and her delusional assurance that Lipstick Jungle was not dead. I love Dusku for picking up the mantle, and not letting die such an entertaining tradition.
If TSCC is renewed I hope they will shut the site down and bury their heads in sand.
How about this, Wess: Robert and Bill will shut down the site if TSCC is renewed if you agree to pay the hosting fees to keep this site up for, say, a year, if it is canceled. Sound fair?
Franz, For TSCC, Dollhouse and Sit Down, Shut Up the “certain to be canceled” is a prediction, the “in danger” is their current situation. The only shows in the table that are designated as “canceled” are those that have in fact been canceled.
innocent, my knowledge of X-Files’s ratings trends is incomplete (as it seems yours is), so I’m not sure that fits. As for How I Met Your Mother, it was better than average for CBS last season, so it’s not an example of bad ratings that improved, but better than average ratings that improved.
Wess, we aren’t a fansite, looking at the future of shows through rose colored glasses. If you want that, try elsewhere.
Okay,I’m tired of you and your comments.
There’s only article after article against TSCC and you’ve been announcing a cancellation that HASN’T BEEN ANNOUNCED!!!!DO YOU UNDERTAND THAT????
I know you count the survival chances for a Tv show only using ratings as a reference,but you have to take into account the Terminatyor franchise in general.T4 is coming this month anf Fox would be really really dumb to let go of this show.Besides,it would look like Fox was the only network that could not make profit of TERMNINATOR,COME ON THE FRANCHISE CAN SELL ITSELF!!!!!
Well FOX hasn’t canceled DOLLHOUSE but they did put off renewal talks until after the finale. You don’t do that if you’re renewing, but you also don’t do it if you’re definitely canceling. REMOTE FREE TV must be important.
Jodie77, it won’t be on FOX if it’s on TV next fall. I think Warner is about to let Glau out of her contract too. We should find that out next week. That may be the only confirmation we’ll ever get.
Jodie, cancellation for Terminator, Dollhouse and Sit Down havent been announced, they are just speculated to be definitely not coming back until FOX officially announces it. Bill is just letting everyone know ahead of time of the series position.
Also Family Guy has already been renewed (their seventh production season of 22 episodes hasn’t even premiered yet and they’ve been renewed for an eighth; 44 episodes total).
A little search on the Internet show that the X-Files finished its first season ranking 102nd of 108 shows in the Nielsen. I am pretty sure that it I knew more about television I could find more examples; nevertheless, it is a miracle that, with the faith in the Numbers that is prevalent in TV, it still is possible to find any example at all.
Innocent, TSCC isn’t a show that started with poor numbers (which showed growth by the end of its first season.) TSCC is a show which has dropped steadily for two seasons. There is zero hope. Whatsoever. Any comparison to shows that have grown in their second season quite obviously do not apply in this case.
Julia,
you’re a perfect terminator !
Sorry but we’re used to re-program them
Come on !
And once again, X-Files never dropped below five million viewers. TSCC is way, way below that. Granted, the number of viewers available has dropped due to cable, etc., but still TSCC has dismal numbers of viewers and even more dismal demo ratings. If DVR was around when X-Files was, it would have had huge DVR numbers just like TSCC, so it would still have done even better.
And for those who think the show has “potential” – not with Friedman in charge, it doesn’t. The finale was almost unmitigated crap (although it had nice touches like the return of the “Silent Latina” and a Cameron shootout) and there’s almost no way he can write his way out of where they ended up with anything that makes any sense. And he knew it when he wrote it. That’s WHY he wrote it that way. He was in his own words “blowing up the frakkin’ barn”, because the horse had left the barn.
He hasn’t even pitched a season 3 to Fox yet according to his own words (although he did say he mentioned his plans to the execs a month or so ago) – and he’s not going to get the chance.
Summer is up for a movie she wants to do and in two weeks when she’s sure TSCC is over she will accept – and that will be that. That comes direct from her.
The ONLY way this show can return is if it’s totally rebooted. I can see WB wanting to keep a PROFITABLE show on the air as a means of keeping the franchise alive between movies. But they aren’t to try to keep a LOSER show on the air. And TSCC is definitely a loser at this point.
innocent wrote, “Show with low rating which were able to mature and thrive for years afterward aren’t rare. They’ve even contributed some of the best TV ever because they survived on quality, courage and dedication, all human qualities.”
Unfortunately for you, network robots aren’t programmed to have human qualities.
As for whether this rant is about “Terminator” or “Whorehouse,” I really don’t know or care — all I can say is, both shows have quality that match their ratings, so they’re sure as hell not going to survive with that the lone criteria.
How can anyone say that T:SCC doesn’t surpass in quality some idiotic serenade like Ghost Whisperer?
You guys pretend to be objective, rational and scientific while you are anything but. You massage the numbers only to serve your bias. Hack says that the X-Files never dropped below 5 millions: it still was 102nd over 108 shows anyway. Your 5 millions is an absolute number that needs to be put in context to mean anything. If the 102nd show of that year had 5 millions it is because either more people were watching TV back then or the viewership wasn’t as diluted as it is now. The 3.5 millions that T:SCC had at the end has to be put in context of the difficulties TV has in general nowadays.
My number is in context, that is honesty. Yours, Hack, is there only to serve your ill feelings: not scientific nor rational, certainly not up to the standards that TV by the Numbers pretends to have.
I did put it in context. I said more people were watching back then. But I also pointed out that TSCC can only do five million – if that – with DVR numbers and if DVR had been around when X-Files was, it would still have done better than TSCC in DVR numbers.
Also X-Files was on when Fox was a new network and was willing to gamble that it would get better, given that it was given a lot of critical acceptance.
None of that applies to TSCC. Fox is established and leads the pack in scripted shows in the target demo. They don’t need loser shows like TSCC any more.
I haven’t seen Ghost Whisperer and have no idea if it’s better or worse than TSCC. It’s irrelevant to me. I judge the quality of the shows I’m interested in. And TSCC, which started out pretty good and with great potential in season one, went into the toilet in season two with serious problems in focus, pacing of the overall story arc and individual episodes, characterization problems, and lack of realism, among other things. While the show had many good, even great moments, and there are a lot of good things to say about it, especially in casting and acting, the overall quality problems directly contributed to the loss of viewers in my opinion.
If the show had been done on cable, it might have survived with its numbers. But it was put on Fox and Fox put it on Monday nights against serious competition for the simple reason that it was a Terminator franchise spinoff that should have been a raging hit done properly. The quality of the show in season two was not up to that task on a hard night on broadcast television. It simply was not compelling enough to gain or even retain viewers.
In this case, the ratings speak for the quality of the show, even if that is not always the case on network TV.
I’m a TSCC fan, it’s one of the only 3 shows i watch and i’ll be sadened deeply IF it doesnt come back for a 3rd season. But i must say that this site is called TV BY THE NUMBERS and that’s what they’re going to give you. The numbers. Everything they post is backed by the numbers, does that make them right? No, but it does show you and i what the execs see and possibly how they consider keeping shows. Personally, i’m neutral about the site. I look at it for the numbers and occasionally the comments.
In the business world however, which i am a part of and i’m part of the newspaper industry and it’s not doing so good these days. Everything in the business world isnt done by numbers, some things are done based on the gut of the boss, the suggestion of advisors, the trends of the times, the potential trends, whatever potential is out there, the demand, etc. For example, we’ll decide to print 500k more papers a day if one of the local major league sports franchises appears like it’s going to the playoffs or does go. Why? Because there’s a possibility that the readership will go up and that usually happenes. i say that to say this, the execs have the numbers and they’re figuring out what to do with them. They’re looking at them and wondering what’s going to be profitable? What has potential? What can we milk until the utters are dry? That’s good business and that’s what a smart business mand does.
Kevin Reilly is the president of entertainment at Fox and he’s a smart and patient man. If NBC still had him i’m sure Chuck would be renewed already and Life would’ve been shipped to USA like it should have been. But fortunately for us TSCC fans, Fox has him and he’s proven time and time again not to always listen to the numbers. Out of all the Fox shows in danger, TSCC has the most potential for a 3rd season. Why? Mostly due to the new movie coming out, if it wasnt coming out now i’m 93% sure, rather than 50%, TSCC would not be coming back. It’d be bad business for the WB for this show to be canceled days before their potential blockbusters release. I’m sure Fox knows this and could be using this as leverage to get the WB to cut their license fee. The WB would also want to make as much money off this while it’s hot and that works in TSCCs favor. It’s business and it’s about the money.
As far as the ratings go, TSCC didnt do great on Monday. It didnt do bad either (see the CW ratings) It was in the middle, averagin a 2.1 in the ratings share and 5.5M viewers and ep. I dont know what the C3 numbers (they dont release them to the public) or C7 numbers looked like for Monday. The C7 numbers for Fridays averaged to 1.7/1.8. I say all this because TSCC didnt perform bad enough to be sent to Friday (remember Dollhouse needed a lead in… enough said) But it should’ve been moved to a Tues-Thurs line up. I’ve played with the numbers (your numbers) myself and Thurs after Bones seems like it would’ve worked very well for TSCC, or after AI.
Stop attacking Rob and Bill, they’re just giving you the numbers and their predictions. Nothing wrong with that, though i do wish they’d show a little support for TSCC like they’re doing for Chuck. TSCC needs it more. Hopefully they take the gamble and bring it back, put it on a decent night and see what happens.
This is why i dont watch TV…
innocent, Robert and I run the site, everyone else speaks for themselves, as do you.
Edit: I don’t mean to imply that Robert and I don’t speak for ourselves as well
Can anyone explain to me why the Einsteins of the world always cling to “The X-Files” or “Cheers” or “Hill Street Blues” or whatever whenever they say that fill-in-the-blank low-rated bomb deserves to be renewed? Do they not understand that those shows maintained the audience that they started off with? And that they didn’t start off with 18 million viewers and end with 3 million viewers? (That’s a sign of great growth potential, right? When 80% of the audience leaves within a year?) And that no network executive — and I don’t care if they are “smart and patient” Kevin Reilly (like Kevin Reilly has NEVER shitcanned a show after 4 weeks… why don’t you ask Abe Higginbotham, Amy Sherman-Palladino, Phoef Sutton, Marsh McCall, Marco Pennette and Oliver Goldstick how incredibly patient he is) — is going to put up with that. Especially if the show in question isn’t “The X-Files,” “Cheers” or “Hill Street Blues.”
As for whining about “Life” (another series which lost viewers by the bucketload), it was offered to USA. An offer was on the table. It didn’t happen. Unless you believe in unicorns and leprechauns, its fate was the same regardless of who is handling the peacock wheel.
Riff, i dont watch Life. I saw one episode and thought: hmm, this is ok. Maybe i’ll catch it on reruns. As i stated before, i dont watch TV shows. just 3, 24, Dexter, and TSCC. I read books (they were around before TV, they have pages with combined letters on them to form words) and watch documentaries. Do i want TSCC to return, you bet. Am I hopeful? Yep. Am i spewing ‘they have to renew TSCC becuase it kicks *ss!’ posts? No. Am i saying anything delusional? No. Most of what my post said was what they’d teach in any Bus related college course. I used numbers from this site to back up my claims. I used business reasoning why TSCC has a better shot to be renewed than Dollhouse or SDSU. I didnt say it would come back.
You’re right, TSCC did debut with over 18M viewers… after the Superbowl. after an inflated performance like that the numbers were bound to drop. Season 2 debuted at with a modest 6.34M viewers and ended it’s Monday night run with a 5.21M viewers. This is without the C7 data. It debuted Friday night with 3.9M viewers, low numbers? Yep. For a friday? Yes and no. Why? Because Friday is the least watched day of the week. Does that make it ok? No. Why am i saying it has more potential than Dollhouse or SDSU to do better on a different night? Because in it’s first season it averaged (if the numbers i got are good) about 8.2M viewers and episode. Did it drop this season? Oh yeah. Can those numbers go back up? It’s a gamble… but i’d put a nice chunk of change on it. (why not? already did with Ford stock) Why would i do that? Business practice, like i stated before it’d be bad business for the WB to have this showed canceled before their movie is released. Just like it’s bad business for a scandal to erupt before the day of the election. Dont you think the week of T4’s release and the subsequent weeks after that there’s going to be a spike in interest, some new and some old, in the franchise? Dont you think most people are going to want a slice of that pie?
All speculation of course.
and Riff, Universal Media Stuidos is part of the NBC family. There’s no deals that have to be worked out to move a show from one entity to the other. One says do it, the other says ok. I could be wrong, where’s your source saying that Life was offered to USA?
TT, that’s not the way things work. They are separate entities. Are deals easier to work out when you know the bottom line for the other party? Yes. But they still have to deal.
@TT
I doubt that the studio is very worried about the cancellation of TSCC adversely affecting the performance of the movie. I’m willing to bet that 99% of the movie going audience wouldn’t even know the television show was cancelled (if they even knew it was on in the first place).
TT, I hope you are correct. I was wondering about that relationship between FOX and WB too as it relates to the future of the series. I’m sure FOX tends to favor it’s own productions but I also think WB gets some good value beyond the licensing fees. DVD sales alone are probably a good chunk of change. Maybe numbers with dollar signs in front of them might overcome weak ratings. I’m still holding out some hope.
You’re right that it’s all about the money. As for Network TV I have questioned how we the public allow that to be solely the case. The broadcast frequencies belong to the public and the Networks are licensed to use them. The Networks also have a responsibility to the public and not just their stockholders. The Networks make most decisions based on Neilsen data about a specific segment of the public while completely ignoring other segments. This in itself is just plain wrong. The system is flawed. In a democratic society, majority may rule, but not at the exclusion of minorities.
With each Network providing some 21 hours of Prime Time programming each week I would rather see some of that time dedicated to the continuation of some “popular” although not highly ranked series. Instead they constantly introduce new low quality, cheap production, time filler shows each season at the expense of quality TV. Many of these new entrants will fail miserably, some even before the airing of a complete season. This is a predictable, repeatable pattern. And the cost for this is a bunch of disgruntled viewers who have lost their favorite shows because the Network somehow thought it could steal a rating point or two from it’s competition. A good reason to abandon Network TV!
The Networks seem to have forgotten their role as public servant that is part of what their FCC licenses require. Unfortunately, a politically driven FCC seems more focused on catching a banned word or overexposed piece of flesh on live TV that virtually everybody barely noticed. I would like to see a way that they protected the public’s interests better. Somehow, a portion of Prime Time should be allocated to “critically acclaimed” programming that doesn’t have the highest ratings. Ultimately we’d end up with better TV.
TT, like you I watch little Network TV. And as each season passes and I continue to be less impressed with the quality of programming and more convinced that good quality just won’t rank well. Every time I get suckered into watching a promising show, it only leads to bitter disappointment when they invariably cancel it. TSCC will likely be the last straw for me.
To R. S. Hack,
We obviously have a different opinion about the season finale. I would suggest that in fact the finale was something that can be built upon as a whole new chapter. This is actually the kind of opening this series could use to grow viewership. So much of the first two seasons continued to build on itself making it difficult for someone to jump in midstream. What we have now is an opportunity to take a somewhat fresh start. The summary of what gets us to this point in time can be rolled up in less than ten minutes. New viewers could jump in or some who had left could easily return. The new point in time in the “future” rather than the “past” allows new directions which can still be consistent with what got us there. I can envision new viewers enjoying it from this new starting point and as the season progresses, even be engaged enough to want to buy the first two seasons’ DVDs to gain some insight.
Think about the original first episode and it can be the same thing. They start us at a particular point in time and set the stage as it all relates to the larger Terminator franchise. It’s all pretty plausible in a very short period of time. When you bring into play the whole concept of how changes to the past could impact the future, it’s pretty easy to overlook any seeming inconsistency issues.
You may view that they “blew-up the series”, however I see it as a convenient breakpoint. If you are going to have to survive with ratings, you need a way to capture new viewers. The season finale at least provides that opportunity. I’m not even sure they had this specifically in mind, however I do believe they were trying to give us a breakpoint. They closed out a chapter and left plenty of room for a new one. If the series died, they at least gave us something of an ending with hope for the future. I hope FOX sees the opportunity and gives it another shot. If the new Terminator movie is a hit, it’s an opportunity to capture some renewed interest in the series. Obviously, we haven’t seen the movie yet and we know there are supposed to be no direct links with the series, however, by it’s nature, it is pretty easy to link a season three to the movie because every Terminator story is potentially it’s own chronicle of the bigger story that depends on a particular past that leads to it. That underlying time based theme is actually a brilliant component that allows the same story to be told time and time again but bound by different circumstances. Hopefully FOX and WB can get together and keep this alive and hopefully FOX gives it better treatment than they did this season.
Stop the gripping about TSCC. While it’s a good show that I’m a fan of the numbers suck and that’s what matters in the world of entertainment and business. CBS got burned with Jericho when they did what the fans wanted so it’s doubtful fans will be able to influence much of anything other then by watching the show. Fact of the matter is TSCC was put on the wrong network to begin with and while the initial ratings were good they died off fairly quick after a bad ep as the TV audience shows no mercy. Most of the beginning of season 2 was horrible that resulted in bad ratings which led to it being sent to the death night where pretty much it died. While I’d love to see a good ending to the story we’re not going to get it unless it moves to another network and chances of that are probably doubtful at best as I doubt it’s a cheap show to produce. The TV show and movie can not be linked as the TV show takes place between the 2nd/3rd movie and the 4th movie is taking place after the 3rd movie. So it’s time to accept it, deal with it and move on as dwelling on this is rather pointless.
TT: “The WB would also want to make as much money off this while it’s hot and that works in TSCCs favor. It’s business and it’s about the money.”
The problem is that TSCC didn’t make WB any money. It cost them money. And it will cost them $20 million or more to air another 13 episodes which don’t make them any money based on the ratings, except possibly on cable. And that’s only if the show doesn’t deteriorate further in concept.
The ratings have clearly shown that the wider audience does not consider TSCC to be Terminator. Why would WB believe that will change if it’s moved to another network and another $20 million is pissed down the hole?
As I’ve said repeatedly, I can’t see WB doing that just on the off chance that keeping the Terminator name on TV between movies is going to increase ticket sales for those movies more than would already be likely just due to the name recognition. It makes no business sense whatsoever (not that studio execs have any business sense to begin with.)
TSCCFan: The main problem with the season finale in terms of where they could go with the end result is twofold:
1) John Connor now exists in a future WHERE HE NEVER EXISTED, NEVER STARTED THE RESISTANCE, NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING – AND HE’S SIXTEEN YEARS OLD!
No matter HOW you spin that, that has NOTHING whatever to do with the Terminator franchise concept! And it’s extremely difficult for me to comprehend where ANYBODY – let alone Friedman – could take that concept in a way that would make sense to anybody tuning in and expecting to see something that looks like the Terminator movies in any way, shape or form – aside from the presence of Skynet, a Resistance and some robots.
This is not even related to the T-4 movie. The T-4 movie picks up where T-3 left off. Connor and his wife are part of the Resistance, and Connor evidently becomes the leader over the course of the movie (depending on how the current ending goes – the original ending was brain dead.) He’s an adult that can be taken seriously by the existing Resistance.
In fact, I may have a problem with T-4 if they don’t acknowledge the fact from T-1 and T-2 and T-3 that Connor is basically credited with starting the Resistance and is considered the sole reason the human race has survived that long after Judgment Day. I can see adjusting that somewhat, but they’re going to have to be careful not to violate one of the central canons of the franchise.
How do you see anything remotely resembling that in the situation John Connor is left in at the end of TSCC? Nobody has ever heard of him! He’s sixteen! How influential is this kid going to be in the future? What does he bring with him, other than past – and LESS – experience with Terminators than the existing Resistance already has?
It’s insane. The only way to save that version of the show would be to shuffle him right into a time bubble and send him back to 2009 in the first episode. Which would make the whole season finale ridiculous.
2) “When you bring into play the whole concept of how changes to the past could impact the future, it’s pretty easy to overlook any seeming inconsistency issues.”
This called “lazy writing”. It’s akin to Battlestar Galactica’s “God did it”. The whole concept of “alternate time lines” leads to jumping the shark in minutes. It exists solely to cover up inconsistencies and bad writing and leads to more inconsistencies and bad writing.
The huge hole in this is that the fundamental premise of the franchise – sending somebody back in time to change the future – never made any sense. Trying to alter the past leads to 1) you don’t know the effect on the future, whether it’s better or worse; and 2) your future doesn’t change if there are alternate time lines, and if there aren’t, your future changes in ways you can’t know because you’ve now changed along with it. Hence the entire enterprise is futile.
Time travel is useful ONLY to set up the premise for the events happening in the present. Most science fiction writers adhere to that rule and James Cameron wisely followed that rule in both of his movies. Friedman has no clue about this and admits that he and his writers throw in time travel whenever they can’t figure out what else to do.
I actually believe that Friedman deliberately intended to make season 3 even more Sarah-centric and/or John-centric, and probably intended to sideline Summer Glau even more than he did in season 2. If the first case, it would be to continue his love affair with Sarah’s psyche, and in the second case, because he was pressured by WB to make the show fit more with the T-4 John-centric emphasis.
Neither are recipes for success. The Sarah-centric show has already alienated many viewers, and his finale basically destroys any notion of making the show resemble T-4 in any way because it violates the entire movie canon.
“That underlying time based theme is actually a brilliant component that allows the same story to be told time and time again but bound by different circumstances.”
No, it doesn’t. Or to be precise, it could be but it would be extremely hard to do well because it confuses the audience.
Terminator has a very specific set of components that made it successful. These components include a specific formula – two humans and (at least) one Terminator – and two plot components: killer robots trying to kill somebody in the present and stopping Judgment Day. That was combined with lots of action, special effects, and a central concept that involved exploring the relationship between mankind and AIs. Drifting away from that formula risks undermining the entire reasons for the success of the franchise.
T-4 is expected to adhere to that formula to at least some degree. However, T-4 is basically a war movie, so it may well be able to change the formula to allow for more characters, and a different dynamic. Nonetheless, it’s clear from the trailers and clips I’ve seen that it adheres to the dynamic of a core group of humans, and one Terminator (or Terminator/human hybrid) – Marcus Wright – as the central characters – and a lot of action and special effects centered around dealing with the direct confrontation between humans and AIs.
TSCC violated the dynamic in numerous ways: with its excessive focus on Sarah Connor, it’s sidelining of the primary Terminator (Cameron) in favor of Cromartie/John Henry and Weaver, it’s depiction of the Connor team as incompetents (again in favor of Cromartie/John Henry and Weaver) – indeed, the Connors are depicted in the finale as being basically IRRELEVANT to the entire conflict! All the most effective action against Skynet is taken by John Henry and Weaver while the Connors bumble around getting killed and arrested!
I could go on. But the bottom line is that all that is irrelevant. The reality is that Josh Friedman never had a clue 1) what Terminator was about, and 2) where his story line was going, regardless of his claims to the contrary. And that would not change in a season 3.
The only way this show can be done now is a complete reboot that acts as if TSCC never existed. You could keep the same actors, but the writers – and Friedman – have to go. The concept needs to be more “old school Terminator” with a lot faster pacing, and a willingness to push the envelope.
Whoever thinks a movie release doesn’t spark major interest in the franchise itself is completely dellusional. Every time a franchise movie comes out, Blockbusters, toy stores, etc. are bombarded with franchise products: batman toys, old movies and series, star trekk stuff, terminator movies, toys, etc. Do they do that just for kicks? No, they do it because they know they will make money because there’s more interest. Simple as that.
TSCC will benefit greatly from the Salvation hype, and so will WB when it comes to TSCC. Rerunning TSCC during the Salvation run and beyond it will be very successful.
TSCC is not really apart of the franchise the first 3 films are. All TSCC does is use a back story that completely ignored the 3rd film. While there may be some extra interest in the TV show if reruns are aired over the summer I doubt it’ll be enough to save the show not with how bad the ratings are to begin with. The only way this show is sticking around is if cable decides to give it a prayer and that’s at a reduced budget and head count. The TV show carries on a completely different storyline that has nothing to do with the 3rd or 4th film. Those 2 films are the way the story is going with an additional 2 films making a total of 6 films. It’s delusional to think a movie with very little in common will do a ton to help the TV show. They didn’t even use Lena Headey to do the narration they used Linda Hamilton the original Sarah Connor. I’ll reiterate I’m a fan of the show and the films but realistically the numbers suck and that’s what it’s about.
My name is Dustin; and here a few things you might like to know . . .
Terminator has an amazing fan base, who are dedicated and are working hard to save their show. While I am a Chuck fan, I am proud to help them out because they have a good show, and I am confident that they wont forget Chuck’s support if we both get off the bubble.
@Dustin
If that is you man, I just have one thing to say:
Hang in there baby!
About TSCC, correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t the highest ratings for season 2 for the episode which hyped Summer Glau walking around in her lingerie? That alone told many of us that the writers of TSCC had run out of ideas. Once T4 is in the cinemas, I’m sorry to say that people will forget about TSCC.
And about Summer herself, her highest ratings this year were when she played herself on a recent episode of The Big Bang Theory and let the guys hit on her with awful puns and Terminator references for 20 minutes.
@TSCC Fan, complaining about networks only looking at demo ratings misses the point – there are tons of shows that appeal to audiences over 50 (or 34), and they generally tend to be the same shows that younger people like (CSI, House, American Idol, etc).
The problem I see with the FCC forcing networks to air “critically acclaimed” programming is that there’s no standard to judge it by. I mean, would T:TSCC or Dollhouse fall under that banner? You can make anything look like a critical success by cherrypicking which reviews you use.
Save Dollhouseeeeeeeeeeeee
TSCC owns all of TV. the writing and acting is flawless. it doesn’t need any leverage from T4, and that wreck of it’s predecessor (wonder why T3 events weren’t factored in…hmmm?). if you people would get out of your little box of this ridiculous ratings system and wake the hell up. who even uses this junk anymore? internet and dvr is where it’s at. you people seriously need to get out of the stone ages..
zeenster, who even uses this junk anymore? The people who decide whether shows live or die.
DOLLHOUSE may be living on. Weird stuff going down along those lines. REMOTE FREE TV must be important.
If TSCC is continuing it’s without Summer Glau. She just signed a big movie deal that will be shooting when a season 3 would be shooting (thus she only could have got the deal with the approval of someone at Warner).
Also FOX picked up one comedy (I’m guessing SONS OF TUSCON), and one drama (HUMAN TARGET that one I’m sure of) and renewed LIE TO ME despite its recent heavy drop.
http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/primetime-pilot-panic-sons-of-tucson-ordered-lie-to-me-renewed-limelight-dead/
Edit: it looks like THR posted a similar story and then pulled it down: in my RSS feed but no longer currently available on the site(looks available again):P.S.:
Sources say Dollhouse fans shouldn’t lose hope; that despite the show’s recent ratings, the show is still alive. Whedon pitched the network on his vision for season two late last week. Discussions have commenced between Fox and the studio about how to make the show work financially.
http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/05/fox-picks-up-lie-to-me-and-human-target.html
glad to see Lie to me back next season
“The people who decide whether shows live or die”
Umm, no. TV networks are finally getting their heads out of their asses with these retarded ratings which make up about 1/10 of the nations actual viewers (and that is a generous estimate). Prepare to be surprised when these donkified predictions blow up in your faces.
looks like dollhouse got picked up
Apparently The Sarah Connor Chronicles will be canceled tomorrow… Monday May 18th…
My other two favorite shows are Bones and House… but those shows and all other Fox shows will be dead to me.