Update: while still not “official” yet, Nikki Finke reports that Dollhouse has been renewed. So does James Hibberd, and a multitude of other sources. You might have already heard it from your mom or at the check out line at the grocery store! Apparently no official announcement will come before Monday, but, the official announcement will come on Monday.
The renew/cancel index may lay off Fridays completely next year and it looks like I’ll be posting the Greek numbers for a while and donating $10 to Nick C’s favorite charity.
YES!!!!
OMG ! This is the BEST NEWS EVER !
i get a sense that you get offended when the networks don’t follow your index
TSCC fans are not taking this news well. This fanbase thinks anything not positive for them alone is somehow a negative. I would love to see Summer Glau move to DH. Her obsessed fans that are craipping on DH would be in shock. lol
yes! I love Dollhouse and would love to see more from the show!
*does dance of joy around the room*
Wow ! This is so awesome ! Now, i hope they bring back Terminator too.
Woooooooooooooohooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@leo: Dance of joy. <– LOOOOL. Perfect thing to do right now.
lol old skin->new skin->old skin
great news for dollhouse fans, I’m happy for them. Dollhouse is definitely the “Comeback Kid” for this season.
I have no words! (except for these ones!) More later!
Dollhouse is the most awesome show to ever receive a second season!!!
Leo K., I would guess that a DH renewal makes terminator’s chances a -50,000,000,000% instead of 0%.
I peed again.
FOX must be smoking something.
@Tom, I’m not offended at all. When CW renews Privileged I won’t be offended either. But that renewal would dramatically change Bill’s headlining of the index posts next season. The Dollhouse renewal, probably not so much.
Well, since people here have said that Nikki is rarely wrong and she claims this comes from official sources, I guess we can take that to the bank.
I just left a comment on her site asking her to find out why TSCC hasn’t been officially buried and the actors notified. Maybe she can use her clout to find out what nobody else can – why the actors and producers claim they haven’t been told at this late date. I’d really like to get that cleared up.
“TSCC fans are not taking this news well. This fanbase thinks anything not positive for them alone is somehow a negative.”
Because it was another hour from the schedule. Or one show that was trending down fast for several weeks gets renewed.
I don’t want Summer on the show, I want her in movies (like she was talking about). If Dollhouse is cutting costs they probably won’t give her a large enough role to be worthwhile.
Pfft. This does nothing to make up for FOX not renewing John Doe for a second season.
I could say “I told you so!”
but…
I agree with Robert and Bill. The numbers aren’t there. A 1.0 and renewed? Seriously? I know Kevin’s reasons and they make sense, but a 1.0? REALLY?!?!
If I was in charge there, I’d fire him for suggesting renewal (of course if I was in charge there, Joss would have had more control, and I’d have used AI as a lead in, and it never would have had a 1.0), but I understand why.
I kind of liked the last two episodes. I really liked the last episode actually, so I suggest people buy the DVD so they can see it since FOX didn’t air it.
I don’t think the Index is wrong here, but I think Fridays are different. FOX is trying to show stability for Friday and that meant renewing DOLLHOUSE or TSCC and they made the right decision as far as quality is concerned.
Um, FWIW, Nikki is hardly the only one reporting this. It’s all over the place, including many sources not as debated as Finke.
I’m as stumped as you guys are, but happy. It’s not a fantastic show by any stretch, but it’s got some intriguing layers to it and watching them peel off is sufficiently interesting to make the show worth watching.
I must say, though, I don’t see how it’s gonna stay interesting with Ballard under Adelle’s thumb, November gone and Victor becoming a non-issue. She may be the star and producer, but Eliza Dushku was far removed from the reasons I’ve enjoyed this show.
Just reposting this from the previous thread.
RSH, her character is left in a miserable state at the end of the season/series (I don’t mean creatively, I mean she’s in effect disembodied right now). If you knew the ratings were poor and the show’s survival prospects were bad next year, and a character you loved playing was left in a state that would never be resolved from the look of things, you’d probably be upset/sad too. I know I would. That could be what she was feeling.
Again, it’s subjective. You have no way of knowing you’re right, I have no way of knowing I’m right. I saw the video and I saw the question, I saw Summer’s face, and I drew different conclusions. Unless one of us is a mind reader, we have no way of knowing who’s right and we both presented reasoned arguments that explain her reaction. Ultimately neither you nor I will know the truth of this.
Nick C., Summer said she had the movie offer already at FedCOn in Germany 2 weeks ago, when she said she didn’t know TSCC’s fate. I know I’m being a real pain here, but I’d really appreciate it if you could tell me the project. As you can imagine I’m feeling pretty badly right now and I just want some scrap of good news to hold on to. Summer seemed really enthusiastic about the movie in her interview and I’d just like to know what it is. Could you find out? Please?
Hey RSH, your comment isn’t showing up on Nikki’s site at all. I sent her an email last night about TSCC but got no reply. Maybe you’ll have better luck.
Echo is a separate entity, evolving from parts of Caroline and the imprints.
Just a theory.
They aren’t just counting Nielson ratings, but also DVD sales (which are good), relatively consistent DVRs, and online viewing. A lot of the negotiation thats been reported were about their financial situation with the show. There have been budget cuts for the next season and episodes have been reduced from 50 to 42 minutes. Without reducing quality, Dollhouse is *cheaper* to make that TSCC.
Well, since we’re moving to a new post… I’ll repost:
The_GodfatherSJP, get a grip with you being “deceived”. No one deceived you, even if Friedman was told that Fox wasn’t going to pick it up. Even so, if a campaign is done well, some times in very very rare cases this decisions can be changed, and that’s what we as fan should hope for. Also, wether Fox decides to bring it back or not is irrelevant to wether a campaign should be done to try and save a show you like as there are other networks with some interest in the show.
So get a grip.
This was always a long shot, and wether Friedman deceived you or not should be completely irrelevant to a decision of a fanbase to campaign for a show to get renewed.
NOOO!!!!!!!!!!
God what a waste.
YES!
BEST NEWS EVER!
@notty22: I’m a huge Summer fan and yet I’m wohooooo-ing this Dollhouse renewal news. How do you explain that?
Hmm… maybe I will bother to catch up with the episodes I’ve missed then.
Also, Nikki Finke is reporting that SCRUBS and CASTLE have also been renewed.
I wonder if Dollhouse could be the first program to get a demo lower than zero (I mean, besides anything aired on the CW or Ion)?
Just air it for 13 weeks, and if the trends continue as they have, we could find out within 10 weeks, as Nielsen’s computer processing quality control system seems to be run on a Windows 1.0 alpha system, on a 286 with 4 KB of virus-infested RAM
Nick C:
“FOX is trying to show stability for Friday and that meant renewing DOLLHOUSE or TSCC and they made the right decision as far as quality is concerned.”
You are an idiot of epic proportions. You should have your own show on the CW.
Fantastic news!
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By Scott on May 15, 2009 | Reply
NOOO!!!!!!!!!!
God what a waste.
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By Ricardo on May 15, 2009 | Reply
YES!
BEST NEWS EVER!
I almost died after I read these comments paired together!
monday/tuesday cannot come soon enough
Godfather: Yeah, I assume her comments are moderated, or maybe she doesn’t accept comments from people using Gmail addresses – some sites are like that.
I know Summer was feeling sad about her character because she said she was sad about the finale – but also excited.
But even though she’s a sci-fi buff, I don’t think she understands how messed up that finale actually was. If you think it through, it made ZERO sense. She probably thinks Friedman could pull off a season 3 with that ending, but I don’t. If he tries, the show will jump the shark even worse than it has.
I’m just saying that part of the reason she was sad was because she did not like where Friedman left the character. And that by definition – no interpretation needed – implies criticism of his performance as show runner. Which, again, she would never say in public. She might not even think it herself. But it’s implied.
But she gives fans honest answers and that’s why she went “happy face” with me at the end. When you ask someone if they like something and they give you a happy face with their hands, it’s pretty clear they don’t. Doesn’t need much interpretation. Had she not done that – and I actually didn’t see that until I saw the video, as I was moving away from the microphone at the moment – I might have doubted my interpretation of her reaction as well. That happy face said it all.
Of course, neither of us can be sure. Her answer was a bit frazzled. I think it’s clear she didn’t like being asked that question. In fact, they turned the mike off so you can’t hear that in the video, but I apologized for putting her on the spot
Great News!
Congrats to everyone who works on Dollhouse and all of the fans who have called, e-mailed pre-ordered DVD’s, etc in order to try to support this show.
Finally a big THANK YOU to Fox!!!
This is the gayest homosexuality of all time.
This is utterly amazing.
Hmm, I think I’d like to see the index for Fridays still, even though it doesn’t mean anything, just because I want to see the shows’ averages. And by “the shows” I mean Dollhouse.
Well, RSH, again, I’d be very sad if a character I loved was left like that with no resolution to her fate (which is what’s going to happen come Monday). Again, I’m not talking creatively here. But it’s a difference of opinion about what’s causing the sadness, and I don’t think either of us will convince the other. I disagree, I can’t prove it, neither can you. Let’s just leave it at that.
Nikki doesn’t moderate her comments a lot from what I see. You just have to leave your name and email. It should be up. I’d email her myself if I were you.
Is Hibberd right when he claims that “Dollhouse might very well be the lowest-rated in-season scripted drama to ever get a renewal on a major broadcast network.”? What do the ratings-experts say?
Hmm, ABC has picked up “Happy Town”, starring among others… Amy Acker. What does that mean for Whiskey/Dr. Saunders? Can Amy juggle two shows? I’ll be sad not having Amy on Dollhouse.
AWWWWWWWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEE SHHHHHIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEE
THIS IS AWESOME
NNOOOO, Goodbye TSCC
Congrats to Dollhouse, hopefully the new direction will actually be good lol, there were a couple of good eps, but 2-3 good eps out of 12 is not good enough.
Nick C:
“FOX is trying to show stability for Friday and that meant renewing DOLLHOUSE or TSCC and they made the right decision as far as quality is concerned.”
Erm, TSCC had like 4 OK episodes that were fillers and got a little boring at times (for others, i didnt think so)
Dollhouse had 7-8 out of 12 episodes that were crap, weres the quality in that ?
I am crying now as I just finished rewatching the first aired episode of Dollhouse! The show has come SO far in the past three months! It is beautiful to see the show has managed to do what some (I won’t name names!) had said had a 0 to 1 percent chance of happening! Someone even went so far as to say “The results for Dollhouse should finally end any discussion of the show’s renewal prospects”!!
Also, bless you Nick C for your awesome prognosticating! Sure, in week 2 you said, “If it drops to a 1.6 or a 1.5 it won’t be renewed”! And sure in week 3 you said, “I foresee it growing”! And sure in week 4 you said you’d known it would drop to 1.5! And sure . . . well, I don’t have the time to go back through all the posts! There are only so many hours in a day! But thank you Nick C! I mean it from the bottom of my heart!
The show has had to go up against so, so much! What other show could possibly hope to compete when it had to deal with the Battlestar Galactica finale, a crappy network, a crappy timeslot, daring to take a whole week off, Flashpoint, Friday the 13th (the movie), Friday the 13th (the holiday), Hannah Montana, Hatching Pete, interference from the crappy network, a lack of promotion, launching during the midseason, NCAA basketball, Prison Break, Star Trek, Supernanny, Terminator, and Watchmen?!!?!
Long live Dollhouse!!!!!!!!
WOW! I can’t wait to see the formula for next year’s index. Castle, Scrubs, Dollhouse, Chuck, maybe Reaper and Privileged.
I don’t think if you *saw* Dollhouse that you would say that most of the episodes were crap. 7-8 of them were GREAT!
i have seen all Dollhouse eps, korkster and can say i really liked 1-2, i liked about 3 and the rest were fillers
Buffy’s my favorite show and I think Whedon’s great, but I wouldn’t go that far…I think 3 of them were great. Overall I’d say the show’s a B+ quality show. Though I wonder if I would rate it lower if I wasn’t a Whedon fan.
It does seem that the renew/cancel index, while very useful M-Th, just might not apply to Fridays. Ideally the index would be customized for each day. You might not have the data to do that, though.
What kind of internal #s would a network look at? They’d have the average rating in previous years for that day. Perhaps the average for the big four nets for that day.
You need a # that gives an idea of what the potential is for Friday. A week-long average is just unrealistic for Friday. Maybe 1.5 is about all you can hope for on a Friday, and anything above 2.0 is a hit.
I think it will be interesting to see how Dollhouse develops, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are those who start drawing parallels to Dollhouse and Buffy – based not only on their shared creator and cast, but on their rocky and absolutely horrid first seasons; both shows were aired as mid-season replacements and both started with an extreme amount of negative press and lackluster ratings. It was only in Buffy’s second season that an increase in quality – coupled with a large spike in viewership – propelled the show to renewal and branded it with cult status.
It’s far too soon to know whether this will be Dollhouse’s fate, but it’ll be something to watch for this Fall.
P.S, its not the worst show, its actually alot better than some other shows i have watched in the past, but i dont think it deserves all the buzz it gets, but thats just my opinion.
Looking back, i think it was the acting that actually didnt do it for me, most of the acting felt forced/stiff/heartless, like Paul and Mrs Dewitt, I think Elisha can act, but.. hard to put my finger on it lol.
Its weird because i have seen these people act in other shows like BSG/Buffy and they were fantastic, but in Dollhouse they seemed a little “not fantastic” lol.
But i think it deserves a second season, it did have a good few eps, im just mad TSCC isnt coming back.
Godfather, just tried to leave a second post with my actual email address instead of gmail. Still didn’t take. Maybe she’s turned off comments, because there’s no other comments on that page either.
Maybe she saw what happened to TVBTN servers! LOL
andywhitto, and TSCC had 22 episodes and I’d say 18 of them were crap with 2 being bad, and 2 more being alright. I compare that to DOLLHOUSE where 6 of them were crap, 2 were bad, 2 were average, and 1 was above average, and 1 was good.
I’m picky, but TSCC was garbage. It went from decent mediocrity in season 1 to total trash. James Cameron would make a real Terminator to terminate Friedman if he could. Really. Ask him.
I wish we could edit posts!! then i wouldnt have to keep re-posting lol.
I forgot to say, Dollhouse deserved to be renewed ALOT more than Heroes did, that show is failing, bad. Shame aswell, i really liked the first season (except the finale) then it just went downhill
Hey I don’t understand…
Is Greek not doing so well, is ABC Family not going to renew it?
Greek already was renewed for next season if I remember right.
Liban A, some poster on here made a bet with Robert about DOLLHOUSE being renewed that would have him posting ratings for GREEK. At least I believe that is what happened.
AndyWhitto: You’ve hit on it. The problem is not the actors, it’s the writing and the situations the actors are in.
The Dolls have no personalities when they’re not on engagements, so there’s no “there there” for the actors to work with. The actors are decent when they’re portraying Dolls in action, especially Dichen, but their roles are so small and because the personalities they’re playing change with every assignment, you can’t get a handle on them.
The same applies to Eliza but in spades because her role is bigger.
Tohmoh’s not a bad actor, either, I’ve found him adequate all season. But his character is floundering around in the plot and that’s not a good place for an actor to be in, either.
The writing has been noticeably bad in some episodes. The whole early episode with the singer was really bad in my view.
The problem in my view is that the show was originally conceived as being a standalone exploration of one Dollhouse, with one Doll developing an awareness of herself over time. But Fox wanted it expanded – correctly, in my view – to be more of a “conspiracy” theme. So I think half the episodes have been written to one theme, and the other half to the other theme, making the show schizo.
The show should have had Eliza as a FORMER Doll on the run from the Dollhouse, aiding Ballard in tracking it down. That would have given her a consistent personality and a character people could relate to. They could have used flashbacks to give a sense of her time as a Doll. They could have developed a relationship between her and Ballard, instead of Ballard and Mellie (zero chemistry there – although I gotta admit Miracle Laurie is seriously built!) The whole dynamic of the show would have been better.
Whedon will have to revamp the show next season in order to avoid these issues if he’s aware of them.
The question is: will he? Or will he do a Friedman and run the show into the ground trying to do his own thing despite bad ratings? I understand “artistic integrity”, but these guys are show runners with the specific job to keep the show on the air with good ratings to make money for the networks and studios.
it wasn’t an issue of Greek’s renewal, it was somebody wanting me to post the weekly ratings for Greek regularly if I was wrong about Dollhouse’s renewal. I agreed.
I was wrong about Dollhouse’s renewal. Even with warning in advance that I would be wrong, I persisted in faithful patronage to the ratings numbers.
Ah, Okay it’s just I’m quite paranoid it won’t be renewed and I need some Cappie! Thanks Guys!
Nick C: I REALLY REALLY WOULD like to ask James Cameron about Friedman’s version. I too doubt that he will be kind.
I laughed at WonderCon when McG said he asked Cameron if he could have his blessings for the new movie, and Cameron told him hell no.
I expect we’ll be hearing some post-mortems about TSCC over the next few months that will be considerably more critical than what has been said recently.
RSH, the conspiracy, etc. were all Whedon’s doing. The bad episodes were the studio involved episodes. They wanted more stand alone episodes, etc. I think they learned that leaving Joss alone is the best thing they can do. The only time you should smack Joss is when he wants to kill someone talking about being the wind.
Well this seemed originally like zero chance type thing but i’m sure stranger things have happened. To everyones surprise, the series is renewed and its the first time in years that all 3 freshman dramas have been renewed for second seasons.
@Nick C- LOL!
Well, that windy guy sure did show us this season!
@Richard Steven Hack
Wow you read my mind about the “pop singer” episode, that was the series low for me, and i bet if we look at the ratings, they lost alot of their viewers on the next show.
I also agree with you about the actors having to play people with no personalities, and this is not like playing as a Vulcan on star trek, far from it, hopefully Joss will improve on the next season, since he made a few presentations to Fox on how to “re-vamp” it, i think he knows where he went wrong aswell.
I don’t think we need to be in a hurry to scrap the Renew/Cancel Index for Fridays. It’s just that Friday seems to be more of a day when things like the things that happen with unscripted shows happen to scripted shows, like deals made that wouldn’t be made on any other night.
Also things like Remote Free.
I think the Index is still perfectly good for Fridays to give a sense of what shows will need deals in order to renew them or not. It’s still a baseline that makes sense.
We just need to be more careful when we call shows definitely dead on that night.
And I STILL want to know why the people on TSCC haven’t been told the show is over by SOMEBODY three days from the Fox upfronts. WHAT is going on with the show to let that happen?
RSH, they’ve been told. They’re in denial. I think I just saw Brooke Shields talking about LIPSTICK JUNGLE’s next season.
Nick C: I guess I read that differently, I could have sworn I read somewhere that it was Fox that expanded the concept to include the conspiracy stuff.
I knew about the Fox influence on the stand alones, everybody knew that one. Eliza made that clear in interviews.
Yeah, killing off Wash was just not right. But he made up for it in the season finale of Dollhouse! Alan did a fantastic job. He was never my favorite character on Firefly or Serenity (guess who was?), but he was great on Dollhouse.
Oh I am so bummed. This is a shock to my belief in the self proclaimed prophets/profits (sorry have to do make this rather cliched connection because of the triumph of the fetishisation of artistic commodities ideologies in the US) at TV by the Numbers and Mediaweeks. I have a case of cognitive dissonance. My faith is crashing. Woe is me.
Apparently Maurissa Tancheroen has confirmed that Dollhouse will be back. Rumours abound that Fox is asking Whedon to take cost cutting measures.
thats awesome!!! Nice to see a network actually stand by a show not doing great numbers!!! nice job fox!
That is exactly why i still had my hopes up for TSCC being renewed, none of the actors of anyone working with that show have been told about it, you would think Fox would give them some respect and tell them before the fans know lol.
But after Dollhouse being picked up, i think they have “chosen” that over TSCC and think they have decided to cancel YSCC
Also, i wonder which show has the bigger budget, Dollhouse must have a large budget and prob same as TSCC (maybe slightley more?), but since Dollhouse is “in-house” im guessing it makes more for Fox ?
Prob a big decision in which to renew, because if it was made on ratings alone, TSCC really should have been picked-up since it has shown it can have quite decent ratings in the past (over 8 million)
Just to nitpick, said killed guy never talked about being the wind, he talked about being a leaf on it.
woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
this is so awesome
woland, yes they will have to lower costs. However they will be cutting 16% of the running time so they should be able to cut costs automatically just from that.
True dat @b!x. Leafy guy doesn’t have the same ring as windy guy.
Nick C: The problem with “they’re in denial” is that Thomas Dekker just isn’t the “denial” kind of guy. That guy is so “up” that I refer to him as a “manic-depressive who is never depressed.” Plus he has more than enough irons in the fire that he probably really doesn’t care whether the show comes back or not. This guy is really BUSY.
I saw his video today more as a mockery of the idea that the show was still viable than anything else. I believe him when he says he really liked doing the show, but I also think he’s perfectly ready to move on.
But I also don’t see him just outright lying about not having been told. He’s the guy who dropped all those spoilers about the season finale back in January, although he also claimed Friedman told him to do it, which is doubtful since Friedman hates spoilers.
I could be wrong of course. Maybe he is lying. But I don’t think he’s in “denial”. That video today just doesn’t look like it.
Here’s the video for anybody who hasn’t seen it – warning – he’s shirtless (that’s for the girls at Dekker Daily, LOL!), just got up at 8PM for a night shoot and is smoking:
http://sarahconnorsociety.net/2009/05/14/thomas-thanks-everyone-for-their-save-tscc-efforts/
Wow. It is cool to be on a site where so many the aesthetic gods reside. It is good to know that at this Mount Olympus of Aesthetics posters know better than creators/writers/directors what is and what is not a good show, what is and what is not a well written show. I bow before the notion of notion of transcendental aesthetics and give homage to universalist conceptions of artistic genius.
Gotta know. What shows are you gods of aesthetically correct television running? Where can I watch these logoi of fine high art (and their art was made flesh)?
andywhitto, the TSCC budget is easily twice as big as DOLLHOUSE.
The One True b!x, You’re quite right. Sorry for my mistake. If I had been producing that movie for Joss I’d have smacked him. In fact if I had the power to bring the show back I’d make him start from the last episode of FIREFLY and ignore the movie just because that was a bad move.
RSH, maybe they haven’t told him. There are so many reasons for not telling “the talent,” that it’s not even worth guessing which one in this case. However Friedman knows and has for at least a week.
Everybody dies sometimes, Nick C. Why not go out with a big piece of wood sticking out of your chest?
When I read this news, I felt like going back through every single one of the posts on this blog that said, “Dollhouse looks done,” every single post where certain people *cough* Robert *cough* ignored the importance of DVR numbers, online streaming, the network’s opinion about the quality of the show, the actual cost of producing the show, DVD sales, etc. and copying and pasting them into the comments section, just to show how wrongheaded the thinking of the old, Nielsen-numbers-are-the-only-thing-that-matters mindset can be. But that would take too much work. For now, I’ll just bask in the news that this show will continue to get a chance to develop over the course of a second season.
Ausiello has a blurb about this:
…Fox has picked up the show for a 13-episode second season. The catch? Joss Whedon agreed to a drastically reduced budget. (Note to JW: Dumping that annoying Topher dude should free up at least 15K an episode. Just a thought.)
lol and how do you know that Nick C ?
You seem to know alot about everything, are we supposed to just take your word for it ?
I can tell you the budget for TSCC was cut alot in the second season, it is part of the reason for the fillers, they had to save to do things like build the drone in the second half of season 2, and Brian Austin Green was cut out of a few episodes aswell to save money. I really Doubt they had double the budget, especially with the large cast/sets/just everything in dollhouse, id say it was the other way round.
Jason, this does not have to do with DVR numbers. There still aren’t DVD sales for that to really be a reason. As Nick said, Dollhouse is dirt cheap. That is why it was renewed.
This is embarrassing for tvbythenumers.
You guys have ENDLESSLY been stating that this show is “done.”
Especially in the last five episodes, you couldn’t just report the low ratings–you had to declare that the show was over.
In the future, perhaps you should just stick to reporting the ratings rather than making cocksure predictions.
I did not want to get my hopes up, but both Castle and Dollhouse will be back. Happy now.
Andywhitto, I know because I know what FOX spends and lets just leave it at that. DOLLHOUSE is much cheaper and the huge set is what made the pilot expensive (that and shooting two pilots). TSCC is more expensive than DOLLHOUSE even with Warner giving it away for the back 9.
Nick C: I know there may be a lot of reasons for not telling “the talent”, but at THIS late date, you’d think his agent would have made a call!
Basically you’re saying he’s either lying or so clueless he hasn’t even bothered to find out and neither has his agent.
Or that everybody up the chain of command is just blowing all of them off.
Actually I could see the latter, if they want to put a lid on it until the upfronts or the T-4 movie (in WB’s case) or whatever.
But my question to you is: Precisely WHY are they blowing everybody off? What’s going on with the show that NOBODY has told ANYBODY the show is dead? WHY is EVERYBODY being mum about it?
No leaks, no rumors, nothing! There have been plenty of leaks about every other show. All we get for TSCC is Friedman admitting he hasn’t talked to anybody in weeks – which basically you’re saying is a outright lie – and everybody else saying we don’t know.
I can understand Fox not BOTHERING to announce a cancellation. I can understand WB wanting to shop the show around elsewhere before saying anything. But what exactly IS going on with the show that NOBODY is saying ANYTHING? Nobody is saying the show is being shopped, nobody is saying negotiations are ongoing, nobody is saying anything.
It just seems weird to me we get all this speculation and rumors about Chuck and Dollhouse and then total silence on the TSCC front to the point that nobody working on the show has a clue they’re even fired!
Terminator’s definitely dead. Dollhouse getting a second season may pan out the same way as Terminator. Terminator was a midseason replacement and did relatively well until its second season where it was axed. The only difference is Dollhouse never got big numbers, unlike Terminator and if Dollhouse gets a second season on fridays, its doubtful that it will be a full 22 episode order.
Limping Lucy, I say it’s more embarrassing for FOX. FOX renewed a show that for its finale pulled a 1.0 in the demo! If the quality is really there for renewal (it is) and the idea is that the show should have more viewers (it should) then whose fault is it? FOX. Pete and Kevin messed up. They were the reason for the poor episodes, etc.
Lets just say that the renewal is kind of like them admitting “we messed up,” but at least now they have an idea of how best to work with Joss creatively. So we can hope season 2 will be better, and hope their gamble will pay off and more viewers will tune in for the second season.
Otherwise they’ll look really stupid.
Rob and Bill don’t look stupid at all.
Being TSCC biggest fan, I hope FOX has the decency to issue a real press release on the fate of its show. This has been B/S from top to bottom with nobody knowing the real truth, because it did not come from a FOX press release. I am a big fan of Dollhouse and it does not surprise me one bit how much hostility the TSCC wiki has to any good news not about their show. They live in denial over there. I will be stopping by to discuss with them Monday’s outcome !!!
Ah, my second post showed up on Nikki’s site! First post disappeared so apparently they don’t like GMAIL email addresses.
Maybe she can find out.
It’s been reported that Whedon & Company had to agree to a lot of cost-cutting in order to ensure Dollhouse’s being picked up, but if you think about it, that probably wasn’t too difficult.
A big cost of DH was the $950,000 set which is already built. And the concept behind the show allows additional episodes to be filmed fairly inexpensively.
The final episode (13th or 14th depending on one’s view) was said to have been filmed super-cheaply as an example to Fox of how the show could look on a tighter budget if needed.
Lastly, some cast members (Alan Tudyk moving to V and Amy Acker in Happy Town) probably won’t be available as regulars and they will therefore save some money on salaries due to their appearing less or not at all.
It sounds like DH’s willingness to cut costs was a critical factor in it’s renewal.
RSH, have you seen ENTOURAGE on HBO? Have you seen the way the agents treat their talent and how easily “hurt,” the talent is? That isn’t an exaggeration.
Also I argue there has been a leak. Ausiello correctly reported the show was canceled when Friedman, etc. were notified. They all denied it, because that is the company line. They don’t want egg on their face before the launch of the new movie. So it’s be quiet.
Perhaps Dekker and others are just playing along like they’ve been told to? I mean we’re talking about their futures. If they screw around with Warner that won’t look good for their future. The campaign isn’t bad pr, so they keep it up. Plus SCI FI could still possibly be persuaded.
Maybe Warner wants to push the CW into picking it up instead of PRIVILEGED for Fridays.
Who knows?
The only time you should smack Joss is when he wants to kill someone talking about being the wind.
LOL
Notty22: Yeah, I may drop in as well just to be vilified all over again! LOL!
Maybe some of those people will get a clue that Friedman is an idiot and a BS artist.
Nick C: That’s what I’m asking: Who knows?
Find out, insider!
So Notty, By “discuss” you mean lay out as many obscene comments and homophobic remarks until they ban you again? You really get off on that? Can I get a heads up what your new alias will be?
Julia, the DVD set has been available for pre-order for a while at amazon.com, so that means that the Fox execs could probably check out preliminary numbers for first season DVD sales. Also, with a cult show like Dollhouse, DVD sales (even just predicted future sales revenues) are destined to be a factor. In addition, please prove to me that DVR numbers in no way swayed Fox’s decision to pick up the show for a second season. The show was one of the most DVRd shows on all of network tv; you think that didn’t play a part AT ALL in its renewal? DVR viewers equals more potential word-of-mouth advertising for the show and more potential DVD sales, which adds up to more potential viewers for season two. That being said, you’re right; the low cost of the show undoubtedly played a role in its renewal. I’m just saying that the multiple factors I listed in my previous post all probably played a role (to varying degrees) in Fox’s decision to renew the show, and that their decision proves that analysis of a show’s prospects for renewal that’s based strictly on the antiquated Nielsen ratings system is narrow-minded and no longer reflects the importance of current trends in the viewership of television programming.
This is great.
I’m somewhat surprised and saddened looking at the T:SCC forums. They’re actually upset about this, apparently thinking that Fox decided it was a choice between T:SCC and Dollhouse. I suspect if Fox felt the same way about T:SCC as it feels about Dollhouse, they’d have renewed both and continued to pair the two on Fridays.
I have to say I’m impressed by Reilly. I think he’s obviously willing to recognize the bigger picture around shows rather than simply going by the first set of numbers. There were problems with Dollhouse itself, and the initial five poor episodes certainly damaged the show. But there’s also context. Dollhouse was paired with another show with poor ratings. The slump in ratings at the end was clearly the result of a hiatus followed by a lethal combination of being paired with a show that had no audience synergies, and being shown at the same time as two major movie openings that did appeal to Dollhouse’s audience.
And so, in a very real sense. Dollhouse wasn’t going to get decent ratings for the first season, regardless of how good the show can be in the long term.
I think Season 2 will be the big test. But I honestly don’t know if Fox is just happy with “profitable” or whether they really want to build an audience for Friday nights. The thing that bothers me is: if profitable is the metric, why not make Dollhouse for FX, and get something profitable that can attract big audiences for the network?
Jason, Dollhouse was not one of the most DVR’d shows on network TV. Percentage increase does not mean most DVR’d.
Jason, DVR didn’t matter much at all. HULU and DVD expectations were far more important.
RSH, my inside info is in the broadcasting company not within the production of TSCC. I can only confirm what I already know: TSCC isn’t coming back to FOX. I suppose I could contact someone at Warner, but I believe their take is “say nothing until after the movie is out.”
squiggleslash, because FOX has no stability on Friday Night. The easiest way to build confidence in the night’s product is to show stability. So they keep DOLLHOUSE on FOX.
I don’t understand how anyone could think that Dollhouse getting ruined somehow hurts Robert and Bill’s credibility. They run a blog dedicated to breaking down the reliable numbers available, and by the Nielsen numbers alone there is no chance in hell DH was getting renewed. DH was renewed due to several circumstances outside of Nielsen numbers, things that the public does not have concrete access to.
One of the big factors, I am sure, is the DVD sales, DH is #8 on Amazons TV boxed set best seller list right now, ahead of some notable shows (most notably Grey’s Anatomy season 5, a show that averages ~10mil more viewers). There is also the idea that FOX messing with DH is one of the reasons it started out so poorly, now that FOX realizes they need to just take a step back and let Joss run his show there is a legitimate chance that the show can succeed. Obviously there is also the price of the show, which after the cut backs will likely be one of, if not the, cheapest scripted shows on FOX.
FOX pulled a real shocker renewing DH (woot). Personally I think Robert saying that DH had a good chance of renewal after seeing all the numbers would have hurt TVBTN’s credibility much more than saying it has a very slim chance (even though it ended up getting renewed).
errr, my brain is faster than my fingers apparently,that ruined in the first line was supposed to be renewed (freudian slip??).
I’m so excited. First Fringe, than Castle, now Dollhouse. Thank you TV Network Execs for restoring some of my faith in your ability to see potential.
We have so much to uncover within the Dollhouse universe: Sierra’s story, what happens to Viktor post-Alpha’s “art” project, Echo’s burgeoning consciousness, Topher and Whiskey’s relationship, Ballard doing…whatever he’s doing in the Dollhouse…I could go on and on.
Thank you Fox. And Thank You Joss!
I’m genuinely happy for all the Dollhouse fans out there, but it kind of blows my mind how all of a sudden people are acting like it’s “the little show that could.” Sure it survived, but it seems more like a fluke than anything – which means that it’s not season two, it’s sudden-death overtime.
Stability and Dollhouse? I’d call it predictable instead, as in you’d expect it to keep losing viewers every week with no signs of bottoming out. It has it’s brief moments, but I never was itching for the next episode.
RSH, you’re free to join me at the Wiki. Someone who’ll get “downranked” more than I.
Notty, yeah I’m sure those obscene comments and homophobic remarks you’ll post will change the way fans feel about you and TSCC. Is it really all you’re looking forward to? To troll and be banned again?
That’s too bad that it was renewed in my opinion. I have no idea why Fox would bother.
The season finale was a complete mess. They dumped 2 of the most interesting characters on the show (Victor & Mellie). The cop, Paul Ballard, is now going along with the Dollhouse mess and has no integrity. Chasing Alpha is a joke.
I would be shocked if they totally retool the show as in bringing on someone who can actually carry the show unlike Eliza Dushku.
And even though I loved Summer Glau on Terminator the way they ended the season, I didn’t want them to renew that show. Their season finale was way worse to me than Dollhouse’s.
DVD Pre-Orders were a big focus of the Save Dollhouse Campaign and there has been a site devoted to tracking the Sales at Amazon:
At it’s height, the S1 DVD was ranked:
#16 in Movies & TV
#2 in Movies & TV > Boxed Sets > Television
#3 in Movies & TV > Television
Nick C, why do you pick and choose which questions to answer? Some of your answers are vague in relation to the questions asked. i’m not doubting your inside scoops, i’m curious to how much you really know and what you’re speculating on. ANd the WB isnt the one who’s cancelling them, Fox is. They can talk all they want, what do they have to lose? Dekker does a lot of indi stuff, Headey is just now getting into mainstream US films.
i have a friend who works for leo burnett, he told me his clients are ready to buy into anything terminator, star trek, x-men, etc. because they’re going to be hot this summer and fall. i cant understand why fox wouldnt want to get a slice of the pie, so to speak.
OK, Nick C, I’ll accept that.
Besides, if Summer Glau is out, they’d need to seriously revamp the show if they want to sell it to someone else, which means they can’t make a fall season anyway. At best we’re looking at a mid-season even if WB manages to sell it.
And if Friedman hasn’t done a pitch to anybody yet, it’s likely they’re thinking of canning him and getting a new show runner. Definitely a good idea.
The problem for them is how they can work with where the show was left by Friedman. I really think Friedman deliberately sabotaged the finale so nobody can do anything with it.
If that’s true, they’re going to have to do a complete reboot. That might take them until fall 2010 to set up.
Oops, I forgot the link:
http://www.watchdollhouseweek.com/rankings
Sorry.
I’m so disappointed. First Fringe, then Castle, now Dollhouse…
Wow… well… guess that Fox is not canceling every show super fast anymore… We will see if they’ll regret it or not…
Good point, Samuel – this should erase the “Fox cancels everything Whedon does” meme – or damage it anyway.
TT, I don’t always get the time to read every comment, and I definitely don’t have the time to respond to everything.
FOX could very easily talk. However that would upset their relations with Warner. Warner is one of their biggest advertisers. Would you piss them off? Networks rarely announce cancellations.
If I’m speculating I generally state I’m guessing. If I say “DOLLHOUSE IS RENEWED ITS A DONE DEAL,” that isn’t speculation.
As for FOX wanting to get a piece of the TERMINATOR pie they’ve had a year+ of the pie and they’ve watched 16 million people decide that TSCC isn’t for them.
You can’t deny that number. 3 million viewers for the last episode. 19 million for the most watched episode. It’s easy to understand why FOX doesn’t want a part of it. TSCC isn’t worth it.
Bullshit, plain and simple. If they renew this show, they damn well better renew TSCC. That shot didn’t have a downturn in ratings the last few weeks, including the finale.
And Nick C has about credibility as Flava Flav.
Fox doesn’t know their ass from a hole in the ground.
Summer Glau was the best thing about TSCC so if they do sell it to someone else & she isn’t in it, I don’t see it doing very well.
AO, while I’m sure that looks good and all, and it wouldn’t shock me if Fox actually cares about that, no money actually changes hands until the DVD ships. A smart campaign would get everyone and their mother to use every email address they have to stick Dollhouse in their shopping cart and then just remove it now that it’s renewed. Or wait until Monday just to be extra sure.
Im a TSCC fan and not a DH fan. But Im not shocked to see DH renewed and i doubt TSCC will get renewed. TSCC was given a break so I guess DH should get one too. Fox initially only gave TSCC 13 episodes for season 2. Im guessing to see if its numbers hold up. They didnt. They dropped significantly. And Fox still granted them the back 9. Then they had the bright idea to move it to fridays with DH and run some campy commercials to promote it. Their intentions were good i suppose, but it was a epic fail.
So im not surprised to see another low rated Fox show get renewed. Otherwise the Whedon / Firefly vs Fox rivalry with its raving fans will start screaming how Fox hates Whedon and blah blah all that stuff we’ve heard a billion times already.
Nick C: I think TT was asking why the actors can’t talk if it’s Fox canceling the show, not WB. The actors don’t work for Fox, they work for Halcyon and WB.
It’s not that Fox might talk – we know they have no reason to. It’s why the actors aren’t talking.
If Fox has blown off the WB by not renewing TSCC, the actors don’t care what Fox thinks.
But if you’re correct that WB or Halcyon wants silence about the show being canceled until T-4 comes out, that makes some sense at least. So it’s WB or Halcyon telling the actors to shut up, not Fox.
Personally I would lean to Halcyon since they have the most to lose if there’s bad press about the show before the movie. WB probably isn’t worried that much about it, given the promo for the movie and the likelihood of not much overlap between the show and the movie in terms of audience volume anyway.
But Halcyon owns both the show and the movie. So any bad press about the show is bad press about them.
RSH, bad word of mouth before release is BAD in the movie business, it can and will hurt ticket sales. If the TERMINATOR movie is as bad as the script I had for it, they better hope people don’t review it before it comes out too!
Julia, you are quite right that manipulating the system in that way is a possibility.
But I am very hopeful that such tactics are not being heavily employed. We DH fans are very fortunate to have had Fox make this decision and anyone/everyone who might cancel their pre-order now would be setting a bad precedent. I am sure that this strategy could help other “on the bubble” shows in the future and heavy cancelations now might hurt Dollhouse’s chances for continuation when Fox is deciding whether or not to continue past these next 13 episodes.
We’ll see soon.
Here’s my new conspiracy theory:
Kevin Reilly is on the outs as FOX prez and is thumbing his nose to his soon-to-be ex employer.
This announcement won’t happen until a week or so after the upfront.
Remember, the first shakeup, where Kevin Reilly was bumped from NBC, occurred just two years ago, after the upfronts.
Any network that allows the rubbish that is FRINGE (c’mon, say it, “it’s a demo hit”) live will for sure allow Dollhouse.
Nick C: They already have reviewed it in some places!
The reviews I’ve seen say the first five minutes and the last five minutes suck, but the rest is pretty good. The spoiler clips I’ve seen indicate it’s not bad.
The ending apparently still isn’t satisfying, but it’s not as brain dead as replacing John Connor with Marcus Wright, which would have been just incredibly stupid and a complete violation of Terminator canon.
That’s one reason I hated the TSCC finale – replacing future John Connor with a sixteen year old KID in an alternate universe where HE NEVER EXISTED? WTF? How the hell does one square that with “John Connor is the savior of mankind?”
I’m surprised McG had the lack of sense to come up with the original ending to the movie. Given he’s supposed to be a “font of Terminator knowledge”, you’d think he would have known better.
Bale also dumped on the original script and told McG it was crap and he wouldn’t do it until they got Jonah to rewrite it.
Wait, OK, so Dollhouse was pulling a 1.0?!? And got renewed?!?!
Don’t shows typically lose viewers from season to season?
What the heck is going to happen to it’s ratings next year?!?!
I never really paid attention to Dollhouse, but wasn’t it already trending down to begin with? Anyways congrats to DH fans, that’s pretty miraculous. No offense…
Notty22,
If i was stuck on a remote island with just you and Adolph Hitler and I had a gun with one bullet in it, I would shoot myself, just in case the one bullet doesn’t finish you off right away and I have to listen to you for another minute.
Jon L, I think the show stabilized at about a 1.3/1.4. The 1.0 etc was the same reason as the TSCC 1.0: It was up against some heavy hitters at the Box Office aimed at the same demo.
To say STAR TREK, and WOLVERINE the week before didn’t hurt DOLLHOUSE would be silly and naive. The audience is so small losing 10% is easily noticed in the numbers.
FAIL dollhouse sucked.
Bale typically doesnt pick bad movies. he did that one with dragons or something but thats the only one i can recall.
Nick C, who the f*ck are you? you have all this insider knowledge. who are you?
If Privileged is being picked up too, (for Friday), does that mean Body Politic is dead? Everyone seems to be reporting now that the Gossip Girl spinoff might be going to midseason.
RSH, I have read the shooting script and I wasn’t that impressed with it either. Has McG ever made a good movie? I know he’s a good TV producer (he leaves the show runner’s alone), but a director? I’m not sold.
YAYA a little optimisum pays off finally. I bet all you HATERS feel like shit right now, HAHA, YAYA more dollhouse
Julia,
So sorry: Dollhouse was one of the shows with the highest percentage increase of viewership when DVR numbers were factored into total viewership (or however you want to phrase it), not one of the most DVRd shows on network TV. Let’s split hairs as much as possible! Why bother to post if you’re just going to nitpick? You’re missing my bigger point and not contributing anything useful to the conversation with posts like that.
TT, bad movies by bale: LAUREL CANYON, SHAFT, MIDSUMMER NIGHT’S DREAM, THE SECRET AGENT…. he has made some bad movies.
I’m someone who hears things and shares them under a fake name on the internet. I’m a nobody.
FTW!
Jason, you are not understanding my point. Percentage increase when the Live+SD ratings are so miniscule means nothing. In terms of total number of viewers Dollhouse gained on DVR, it was way down the list. DVR numbers were not impressive at all.
Nick C: I didn’t know much about McG’s background until I read an article the other day about him. He’s basically vilified because he did “Charlie’s Angels”. I never saw those, so I can’t say whether he’s any good.
The clips I’ve seen so far indicate that T-4 is both good and also perhaps as “cheesy” as the others were. There was always something cheesy about the Terminator movies. But they were still good fun which is why they’ve held up well.
I’ve seen comments from younger viewers who say they hate the “crappy special effects” in the original movies. While other older fans say the movies still hold up well. So I guess it depends whether you’ve seen the original movies in a theater or not.
I do remember watching the trailer for the original Terminator movie in the theater. When Arnold’s name came up in big letters on the screen, everybody in the theater cracked up. “That idiot bodybuilder from Conan who can’t even speak English?”
They ain’t laughing now.
So unless the script is complete idiocy, it shouldn’t be too bad. I don’t look for Oscar quality in any movie I go to – or Emmy quality in any TV series – just some adequate believability even if it’s somewhat over the top.
I loved “Wanted” for example, even though it made ZERO sense. And that wasn’t even just because Angie was in it. I just liked the whole attitude of it.
Numfar, Do the dance of Joy!
Remi, so you are saying it has a really good focus and is true to itself?
what bad movie has he made since he ‘made it’ not crap he did to pay the bills? I cant think of one in the last 5 years.
lol, you still dont convince me. you’ve gotten some things right but… i still dont know. i know you dont have to prove anything to me. How do you hear so much? Are you in the loop? A executive? Assistant, intern, maid (not trying to be offensive they know a lot of what’s going on) etc. saying i know things is super vague. I know a lot about the political/business atmosphere in my city – i know who the alderman/councilman ‘girlfriends’ and ‘boyfriends’ are. i know stuff about the mayor, the police chief and deputies, the fire chiefs, etc. I know stuff about local fortune 500 CEOs, CFOs, and management. How do i know these things? Contacts i’ve made in life, but if asked i’ll tell, no i wont name names. Not in person… but on a forum? what the hell.
Words cannot describe how shocked and surprised and how grateful I am that Fox did this! This is the X Files all over again. By the way, I like the design of this web site! 1st Fringe, then Dollhouse, then Scrubs and then Chuck! WOW!!!!!!!
Hose, Fringe isn’t rubbish. The TV critics have been praising the recent episodes. Anyway, back to Dollhouse.
TT, it’s kind of hard to “guess,” the things I’ve reported. Yes, many people have problems because there are times when I use qualifiers. This industry is constantly changing.
I will say my information comes from the executive end. That’s about all I’ll say.
@ Fringefan
So what? Just cause a critic says something is good doesn’t make it so. We are allowed to disagree. I do, and I believe it’s rubbish.
Nick C, a little clarity. Thank you. If you ever want to know what big tim Dem or Repub is gay or has an secret offspring. i’m your man.
Well, this is a free country, Hose, and you have a right to disagree with me!
Yes, I do.
I think FRINGE has picked up, but that actress is still awful. Best thing the show could do would be to replace her with her alternate reality self played by anyone else.
If they did that, I might actually watch! I spent the entire pilot hoping she would drop dead at some point.
Okay, back after some food, and that’s a helluva lot of comments to read through.
As to the way Terminator fans are reacting to Dollhouse, it’s very simple to explain in 2 ways: first, our ratings were identical (I don’t beleive you should make a big deal about the difference between a 1.3 and a 1.4 in the 18-49 demos, which is where both shows finished) so how come one gets renewed and the other doesn’t (many aren’t aware of the budget differences, I am), 2nd it’s called the 5 stages of grief and you’re seeing shock and anger now. And, frankly, a lot of us don’t think it’s fair that one show gets the axe and the other lives on. One thing about your numbers Nick C: Dollhouse crashed behind Prison Break 2 weeks after TSSC went off the air. It lost 600,000 viewers and 0.2 in the demo it’s first week behind Prison Break. Ultimately it lost 850,000 and 0.4, but it actually rebounded in viewers during Wolverine’s premiere, going up 170,000 from the previous week. I think Star Trek had a bigger effect, but I’m not sure with Wolverine.
Say what you will about TSCC fans, myself included, but we really do care about the show. I’m not going to argue about quality, etc. here, but this is something every one of us loves and we’re losing it. As a result, we’re justifiably heartbroken. There are those who are angry, those who are in denial, those who are bargaining right now.
As for the numbers with TSCC, it’s average for the Friday move was 3.57 million using the final ratings numbers. One thing about the premiere always bugged me, since it was right after the Superbowl ratings wise. I’ve always thought that the real measure of a premiere’s viewership is the numbers at the half hour mark, not the premiere. What was TSCC’s half hour viewership? I’m guessing it was a lot lower than the start. Not a good sign I know.
You’re going to think I’m nuts RSH, but I actually became a fan in the middle of Season 2, specifically having watched the episode Complications. I never watched a broadcasted episode before that, including the first season, and I found myself hooked almost immediately. I went out and bought the Season 1 DVD and watched all the previous episodes in 2 marathon sessions, something I only did once before for the Sopranos.
I find myself asking the question why did I get so involved with the show knowing it probably couldn’t last? Truth is I don’t know. I just really really liked it. There’s not a lot of TV I watch, but the shows I do follow I’m very high on. Besides the Sopranos, TSCC, Top Gear, and Ramsay’s Kitchen Nightmares, the only other show I adored was BSG. You might notice a pattern there, maybe. The scripted shows I love are all very dark, dark fare, and that’s got me thinking.
TSCC had one major disadvantage going for it no matter what the Series did, unless it wanted to become parody. Simply put it had a dark, brooding, almost apocalyptic tone, and I’ve found that most people I know, and I think Americans in general, don’t like that kind of television. I’m the only person I personally know who watched BSG, a show I am convinced could never have survived for more than 1 season on broadcast. Everyone I tried to introduce the show to all said the same thing: it’s good, but it brings me down and I don’t want to watch it. I get the same reactions trying to introduce people to TSCC, they get brought down (some don’t like it at all either, but most of my friends do yet they still won’t watch).
Look at the schedule for the networks in general, and I mean broadcast, not cable. Outside of Lost, there isn’t a single dark toned show I can think of off the top of my head. Not the innumerable crime procedurals, not House, not Castle, not Reality TV, certainly not the sitcoms. I think the American viewing public in general tunes that stuff out. When you start out with such a disadvantage, you have to be almost flawless in your storytelling, like the BSG writers and the guys behind Lost. I’m sure you can find another example, but by and large I think I’m right.
LOL @ Julia
I agree with you and Nick C. I don’t know if it’s bad acting, bad writing, or bad direction, but something about the Agent Dunham character just doesn’t appeal to me.
I still don’t know why everybody hates Anna Torv. I find her believable and very likable. She’s playing an earnest young FBI agent! So that’s what she acts like! Her character IS dull! FBI agents ARE dull – if you don’t count Fox Mulder – and even he was dull most of the time!
I think people keep comparing her to Gillian Anderson – who wasn’t nearly as likable (or good looking), but perhaps was taken more seriously because she played it that way.
I haven’t seen a false note from Anna all season. Joshua on the other hand has occasionally been a little too slick. But that might have been the writing.
Wow. I’m a little late, but wow.
I wonder how the production value of the show is going to be hit; I hate to think of the low creative quality being coupled with crap cinematography and fifty dollar set pieces …
And I’ll just throw this out there for the hell of it: I WOULD HAVE RATHER IT BEEN TERMINATOR THAT WAS RENEWED.
RSH, people don’t watch TV to see real life boring things.
Trov and Gillian Anderson cannot be compared. Anderson knows how to act.
RSH, I think it was best explained by one of Paul Ekman’s prized pupils at a screening I was at that her micro expressions directly show her feelings about the lines she has been given. She shows disgust often and the panels as well as viewers catch that disgust when the character isn’t supposed to be disgusted about something.
It isn’t that she is dull, it is that she can’t act. She displays disgust with lines she has trouble with or may not like. She seems to have that feeling often. Her smiles are extremely forced and don’t register as real.
That combination of disgust and fake smiles puts off a lot of viewers. She is the worst part of the show, and Gillian Anderson is no comparison. Anderson can act in circles around Torv.
If Rupert Murdoch weren’t her Uncle she’d never have received the part. Since Rupert is her Uncle the chances of her ever being recast are slim and none.
Godfather: That’s interesting about TSCC being “dark”.
I don’t think the problem is that it was “dark”, I think it was more that season 2 was two things: 1) depressing because of how bad the characters were, and 2) slow.
The problem was the characterization. Sarah Connor was turned into a mental case, John Connor turned into a schmuck during most of the Riley stuff – and both of them turned into idiots making mistakes nobody in their situation should have done. No half-way experienced criminals – and that’s what the Connors are, a “terrorist group”, as Sarah told somebody in the back nine – would have been screwing up like they did. I said it repeatedly all during season two – a half blind cop could have tracked them down.
Not to mention that Friedman also introduced a fundamentally unfixable “glitch” into Cameron which made her also a fundamentally and badly flawed character.
It was entirely due to Friedman’s obsession with his own cancer. He introduced the cancer obsession into Sarah and the glitch into Cameron for precisely that reason – a reason that was meaningless in terms of the franchise. All of it was supposed to be a commentary on “mortality” – which has nothing to do with Terminator which is a commentary on hope and the future.
And bad characterization will drive viewers away fast. These characters are supposed to be the “heroes” of the show – and they’re acting like morons.
As I also said repeatedly during season 2: “If these people are the saviors of mankind, it’s time to send in the first string.”
Personally I think a rebooted Terminator could be a lot darker and bloodier and it would actually help the show. But depressing and slow is not the way to go.
But I understand why you liked even the season 2 episodes. The acting was first rate, especially by Lena and Brian and Summer. And the dialog was usually first rate. The writers are excellent at dialog, and the directors were excellent at making the scenes believable. It’s just the writers suck at being realistic about the situations. And the directors occasionally made bad moves (the classic “Three Hundred Foot Cameron Throw” in “Alpine Fields” – God, was that bad directing!).
But mostly it was Friedman’s focus and pacing that were the problems. You just can’t do something called “Terminator” with the pace of a glacier.
Anna’a improved since the early episodes!
FringeFan, that’s the placebo effect on you. She most definitely has not improved.
Again if Rupert Murdoch weren’t her Uncle do you really think she’d have ever even received the part in the first place?
So I guess the FOX Friday curse has finally been broken!
Damn it …….. Doll House is OK but TSCC had a bigger franchise and better story to build on ……….. they could have continued TSCC for years if they get good numbers and it’s numbers were better than dollhouse………… anywayz what’s done is done ….. lets see what happens to TSCC
Nick C: I just found out yesterday about her being Murdoch’s niece. That did surprise me.
However, I think people are over analyzing her performance. I never take another actor’s analysis of an actor as relevant to my perception of the actor. They’re one-upping each other, always. What’s relevant is whether the actor is appealing and believable to me.
Has anybody asked Anna whether she’s showing “disgust at her lines?” I find that one reaching with a ten-foot pole. She shows concern in a certain way that you don’t like, that’s all.
I don’t notice her smiles being forced at all except when the situation indicates they are supposed to be.
Nobody likes Keanu Reeves as an actor either. It’s his STYLE they don’t like! I find him believable as an actor just as I do Anna.
People just have ridiculously high standards for actors. They want everybody to do Oscar caliber work all the time or they want to be seen as great critics who can judge an actor’s professional abilities.
Sorry, not buying it. Lighten up. If she was that awful, Fringe wouldn’t be doing the ratings it is. Maybe her “range” isn’t as good as you’d like, which wouldn’t surprise me since she isn’t that accomplished in the business, but she’s not awful.
The only two actresses I ever truly felt were awful were Raquel Welch and Karen Carlson (actress in Chuck Norris’ movie “The Octagon” where bad acting was the rule not the exception – except for Lee Van Cleef.)
By the way, Wikipedia says:
She was nominated for a 2009 Saturn Award for Best Actress on Television for her performance on Fringe and recently received an Australians in Film Breakthrough award.
So not everybody agrees with you.
Her facial expressions are similar to Jodie Foster’s in Contact
Nick C: Anna Torv has been on five TV series in her career. I’d say that’s more than enough to be qualified for a role on a TV series, if not the lead.
She’s only been working since 2002 and has been working steadily since, so I’d say somebody thinks she’s adequate.
Wow. This is a surprise.
RSH, she scores horribly on panels. More than 50% of the audience has problems with her.
It wasn’t an actor who was noticing her microexpressions, but a professional psychologist who specializes in micro expressions and is used an expert for the series LIE TO ME. It’s not an opinion she is actually showing true disgust. Multiple times in a show. Her smiles aren’t real. Watching a show with someone like that is interesting as well as educational.
An example of a horrible actress is Keira Knightley. Now there’s a truly horrible actress. Just look at her performance in Pride & Prejudice.
Fringefan: Well, I wouldn’t go so far as to compare her abilities to Foster’s. I’m a long time fan of Jodie, and I think she’s one of the best actresses in the world.
Anna’s not Oscar quality by any means. But she’s quite adequate for a TV show.
Off topic a bit — I like the fact that older comments have a jump point now, thanks for saving having to scroll through a loooooooooooooooooong column. Much appreciated! Glad the Icons are back and Ital, too… the off-set of the font helps bring the eye right to the top of the comment. Again, nice touch!
Not to be a pain, but everything with the Terminators, even the movies, means these guys would get busted by the Police. You simply don’t get away with shooting up a precint, which captured your face on camera and thus has your face everywhere on an APB! Not to mention springing an inmate from an insane asylum, which would have brought many, many more police in a much shorter time frame than what we saw. The COPS are stupid in general in the Terminator franchise. The protagonists and antagonists couldn’t get away with anything if they were on their game. But that’s true for a lot of series, not just TSCC.
Truthfully anything with SCI-FI is silly when you think about it. You can tear apart anything, hell even Indiana Jones. Yeah there’s really going to be a full bar of Egyptians armed with rifles and SMG’s that the Cops don’t notice, uh-huh, right, sure
. You can do that to Star Trek, Star Wars, X-Files, a lot of series. Most people let it go because it’s a story and they were having fun. That’s what I did. The disbelief was suspended.
As for Bad characterization, I agree with you on Sarah’s, it was pretty bad, best shown by how poorly recieved the Sarah Connor Psychology arc was by everyone (please don’t go into a diatribe about this, it was pretty bad, move on). I found myself actively DISLIKING her, though to be honest I didn’t like Miss Amazon of T2 either.
As for John, well, things fell into place once the end 6 aired and suddenly his actions in the first half made a lot of sense to me. He’s a 16 year old kid desperately grasping at any straws or strings of a normal life, which he wants more than anything else in the world, and when he killed Sarkissian, it was direct incontrovertible proof that a normal life wasn’t in the cards (not to mention his strongest protector turning on him 5 minutes later all on his birthday). So he did what a lot of teens his age would do, he acted out against his family, and clung to the one thing that was normal for him: Riley. Of course, things didn’t work out, but I understand WHY he acted the way he did earlier in the season, and frankly I agree with it, because I probably would have acted like that myself. Woulda been so angry at everyone and everything that I wouldn’t have cared. It’s boneheaded yes, but no one is a pure saint or a sinner, they’re in between, and it was a time that shows that John Connor was a flawed boy, and is a flawed man who winds up doing a great thing.
As for Cameron, well, not sure what to make of that. I’m the kind of Star Trek fan who’s favorite Data episodes are the Data Malfunctions ones, so I’m biased there. I do think she would have been much more 1 note without a glitch, but this is a difference of opinion between you and me.
I’m expecting a very long post about what I wrote RSH, but unfortunately this is my last reply here tonight. Got to pack for a trip tomorrow so you’ll just have to hold your replies until later. Sorry.
Nick C that is pretty cold bringing up Shaft
Anyway, congrats to Dollhouse. I love to watch Dichen. Olivia takes some of the sting off of Lena’s absence from TV for me. Since only about 5mil began the journey and 3mil stayed, only 2mil ppl don’t like the show I suppose. Fox can probably pretend season 1 never happened and give it a new start paired with Fringe or something.
I wish TSCC was getting good news too but business is business. Can’t blame them for renewing if they can convince ppl to pay full price on DVD/BR for half a season of TV. They’ll just keep churning out 13eps, err 12, and put that “bonus” ep in the box set. Just ship Echo off to the Montreal dollhouse, cut the show down to 40 minutes, and rake in the cash.
RSH, sure in Australia where her Uncle is practically God of Media.
The Saturn Award was directly related to Mark Altman making sure she was nominated. If you knew who Mark was and how close he is to Abrams, etc. it wouldn’t shock you at all.
Panels don’t lie. The majority of people from panels had some kind of problem with her. She’s abysmal.
Most people who say she’s getting better are only saying that because the show got a lot better.
A professional psychologist? Oh, please…
Talk about Fringe pseudoscience…
Nobody but the studios care about your panels, Nick.
And nobody watching Fringe is a professional psychologist who specializes in “micro expressions”! LOL!
I’d point out that I read that when Kristin Bell’s movie (I forget the name) came out, most people had problems with her face, so they emphasized somebody else in the promo posters. Like that really matters to anybody.
Torv is perfectly adequate for the show. They’re not going to replace her, so the discussion is moot.
I’m really happy for Dollhouse.
Godfather: Let’s just say that writers need to cross the T’s and dot the i’s in a series so it’s believable.
I cut Leverage a lot of slack in that regard because the show is so good in other ways. But they have plot holes you could drive a truck through. TSCC doesn’t have that luxury.
The characters in the movies were in considerably worse circumstances than the ones in the series, not to mention that they weren’t as experienced at that time as they are supposed to be in the series.
And Terminators know very little about what they can get away with and what they can’t – and they don’t care anyway (although they should.)
Yes, you have to suspend some disbelief to enjoy any action or sci-fi media. But there’s come a point where repeated BS becomes visible and annoying. TSCC passed that point.
I really need to get my fan fic up on a Web site, so people can see the difference between incompetent BS and…well. competent BS. The problem is that everybody looks at the show as it is and can’t imagine that it could have been any different. That’s why I hope WB does reboot the show with a completely different show runner and writers who have a clue.
RSH, nobody cares but the studio about panels? Then why do they take them? I mean why bother? Why was Torv kept on the show despite the panels? Why did Altman have to be bought for a nomination?
Torv remained on the show because her Uncle wanted her on the show. She was never an option to remove from the show. She has never even scored decently. She is the most complained about person on the show in just about every site I’ve visited. Pacey gets his fair share of complaints but nothing like Anna Torv.
If she was “adequate,” then certain people I know wouldn’t be upset that she was “forced,” on to the show.
Research Altman, then realize he’s 50% of the TV nomination panel. She got nominated, but didn’t win. How come she wasn’t nominated by any fan based awards?
She’s not a good actress and most people have some kind of problem with her. She works for you, and that’s fine. However that doesn’t change the fact that most people have a problem with her. Does it hurt your feelings that you think she’s adequate and the majority disagree? Does it hurt your feelings that you find her adequate and the only reason she has the job (or had any job in Australia) is her Uncle?
It’s like HUMAN TARGET one person asked me last week “Nick, do you think it will get picked up?” and I was like “Are you kidding the star Mark Valley is practically family to Rupert Murdoch, it’s a lock.”
Have you ever heard of any actress or actor being hired in the primary role of a show that scored less than 50% in every panel done for a pilot? I’ve been around the business for awhile and I haven’t. I’m not talking about a vehicle either, because that is known to happen.
It’s like people that think Tori Spelling or Paris Hilton can act…
Anna Torv is a much better actress than Tori Spelling.
What? Wow, with those ratings… Congrats then, I hope they survive next season.
Tori Spelling’s a horrible actress.
but it’s not official.
It would be something now if the official word turned out to be the opposite of all this shizz. A big ol’ fat CANCELLED would make people go into fits and probably piss their pants.
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY !
You can pound on all that insider stuff all you want, Nick, it just doesn’t the fact that she does in fact work for me. And my guess is, despite your panels, she works for most of the audience as well.
People do panels for all sorts of products – because they don’t know what they’re doing and they need someone to back them up and to blame when despite the “panels”, the product craps out in the marketplace. I’m in computer consulting, I know what the consulting industry is about. I know how management works.
The marketplace is the bottom line. If the product doesn’t crap out, it’s adequate.
You can argue that Fringe survives despite Anna Torv – but that just proves my point. She’s adequate.
Yell until you’re blue in the face about how bad everybody thinks she is. It won’t matter. She’s not going anywhere and neither is the show.
And don’t insult me by suggesting I think Paris Hilton can walk and chew gum at the same time. My capacity to judge an actor is just as good as yours – probably better, given your attitude on Torv.
@Nick C
I ran the story about cancellation two weeks before Ausiello and received a 175K hits on it. He even used nearly the same language in the story. It was leaked on purpose to Ausiello after I accidentally discovered it and then talked to a WB insider learning more.
After the ax falls I hope the truth does indeed come out that FOX decided TSCC’s fate back in December 2008 and WB basically bought/begged/blackmailed TSCC on the air for the final run. FOX really wanted to ditch this show a while back. There never was a S3 planned and Freidman knew it.
I agree with RSH that Friedman has run TSCC so far down a hole, that digging it out would be impossible and probably did so on purpose.
The Cameron character has absolutely no beliveable way to be brought back and is dead for good in the 2009 timeline. No matter how you bring her back it would be a stretch and would never be the same Cameron. The show is dead without Cameron, period.
John Connor is apparently in the year 2025-ish, well after T4 takes place. My reasoning being in “Allison from Palmdale” her mother is pregnant with her in 2008/09. She is about 16 or 17 when captured by Skynet.
In the TSCC Finale, we apparently see Allison Young before capture and before Cameron existed. Through out the series we are able to learn that John and Cameron spent a couple of years together after her reprogramming and Allison’s demise.
JC can’t spend three to four years in the future waiting for Cameron then jump back to 2009 and still be 16….
TSCC as we know it is dead,
RSH is right, a total reboot is the only way….
But that ain’t happening, because Nick C is 110% right, it’s not coming back to FOX.
Show’s over.
~Lanie~
PS Congrats to DH
Lanie, that time-line sounds about right. Cameron told Sarah in episode one of season one that she came back from 2027.
The writers of any show to follow should dump the notion that the dates of the original movies are relevant. Or that any date in the franchise is fixed. They should minimize any reference to exact dates to leave themselves – and any future franchise writers – wiggle room.
They should push up the times so that John Connor is 18 in 2009, going forward. Just ignore when the movies came out. Dump all this going forward in time in order to move from the movie date of T-2 to the present in order to set the show in the present. Just set it in the present and move on. Dramatic license. If you can excuse all the other BS by blaming it on dramatic license, do so when it solves real problems of continuity.
This is another good reason to dump all this backward time travel. It just means you have to worry about people’s ages in the future as well as the past. Simplify! Simplify! Concentrate on the story in the present which is what James Cameron did and any good sci-fi writer does with time travel.
Friedman went through gyrations to get Cromartie into the present. He made up this whole line of BS about how the Cromartie’s head came through because it had a strip of flesh on it, despite the canon that an object must be ENCASED in flesh to come through. All he had to do was just have Skynet send another Terminator in 2007 – problem solved.
Because if something can come through with just a strip of flesh attached, the next Terminator who comes through will be carrying a nuke with a strip of flesh attached. Let’s see John Connor dodge that one! LOL!
This shows how these guys really weren’t thinking very well from day one. They were too busy trying to be “cool” rather than simply following the internal logic of the concept. A show won’t succeed because it’s full of “cool” crap but because it hangs together in a way the audience can comprehend and makes sense.
It was like the “Blood Wall”. They made this entire pointless dramatic crap up about this Resistance fighter spending half an hour scratching unintelligible BS on the basement wall in his own blood, then stumbling upstairs to mumble to Sarah and droppng dead before he could say anything useful. When he could have just stumbled into the living room and said, “Hey, Sarah, grab a pencil, I got something to tell you before I die”! – since you can talk faster than you can write – especially when you’re writing in your own blood. LOL!
And then they never finished off the Blood Wall projects anyway! Although Cameron did take of Terminator Stark whose name was on the wall over on the left. Even Thomas Dekker said the writers were irritated by the whole Blood Wall thing. He blamed it on Fox – but it was the writers that implemented the Fox demand for stand alones that way.
If future John wanted to tell his present self what to do, just put it all on a 32GB flash drive, shove it up the butt of some Resistance guy, and send him through! LOL! It was just lazy writing to handle the Fox demand for more stand alone episodes.
Idiots.
OMG Someone pinch mee!!!!
Hooorayyy, so hey must really count Hulu and stuff. Keep watchin, keep watchin! HOORAYYY!
Another 13 episodes..YESS!!! Hopefully that’ll go up to 22 or 24 oh pleaseee pleaseeee!!!!!!
Right now I love Fox. Lets just hope they launch in a ‘good way’ this fall — meaning a strong time slot and lead in.
Cheers to hoping that we’ll have many more seasons!!
If TSCC is renewed for a 3rd season, I want Summer Glau to be in it, otherwise they can axe the show.
I ONLY want it to be renewed if she is in it.
We will find out Monday if TSCC is renewed?
Yes, Dollhouse will be back
Bring it on
I am a little curious on the time slot now. But hey 13 episodes and it will be in the fall, this is fantastic.
Fringe and Dollhouse are without the best new sci-fi shows around. They original and engaging. Fox know how to produce great sci-fi shows around.
They did produce x files and buffy after all
DVR and online streaming are making a difference in low rated shows now. Makes you wonder if DVR and online streaming would have made a difference for other low rated shows like wonderfalls, firefly, point pleasant etc
Zee: Yes, we find out Monday about TSCC since that’s when the Fox announcements will be made. They may not announce TSCC is canceled, but if they don’t announce that it’s renewed, it will be clear that it’s canceled.
Focus groups aren’t the end all and be all. The focus group for Seinfeld’s pilot stunk as well and it ended up as one of tv’s classic comedies. So, focs groups aren’t everything.
This is amazing news, Robert I don’t seem to recall Greek numbers for the last few weeks:)
looooool
Dollhouse sucks in every ways.
Ratings are low…
Storylines are wrost than the ratings…
Don’t have a move to promove and eventually increase the ratings…
So…
Why the hell should FOX renew Dollhouse?
looooool
Dollhouse suc.ks in every ways.
Ratings are low…
Storylines are wrost than the ratings…
Don’t have a movie to promove and eventually increase the ratings…
So…
Why the hell should FOX renew Dollhouse?
Nick C, Do you see any chance that Fox may put Dollhouse reruns on the schedule for during the summer?
Now, i really don’t see the point in renewing it unless they plan on giving it to a broader audience, i’d say the reruns on Monday-Thursday could out perform the original airings on Fridays.
Louie, Point Pleasant would have had 0% chance, even with DVR and online, Fox hated the show, as did reviewers, thats why they never aired all of the episodes and put Tru Calling back in it’s slot.
This is a qualified thumbs up. As long as they send Eliza Dushku to the attic permanently. She ruins the whole show. However, how Fox imagines how they are going to get people watching this show is a mystery. Maybe it is popular in Canada…
Sloth Monster, Yeah i think it would work better as an ensemble cast but with the severe budget cuts, i don’t see that happening, if ratings show a sufficient enough uptick then Fox will invest more money in to the show, Dollhouse is the new ‘Til Death. Imagine this was all a hoax and Fox cancelled it on Monday?
oh my god I ca’nt belive it! it amazing
WOhooooooooooo!!!!! This is the best news ever!!!
A 1.0? They renewed Dollhouse with a 1.0?
Lanie I agree Cameron is history. Theres a whole flock of in denial ROBOT LOVERS at the wiki , these are the same fans that are whining over Dollhouse getting renewed. Cameron is in television limbo, forever a betrayer to John Connor.
Seriously, yesterday became the best birthday ever with Dollhouse and BoT being renewed
.
(There was also some other good stuff happening as well during the day, so my life doesn’t completely revolve around TV)
I have a theory that FOX is going to use Friday’s as a night to put low-rated shows that perform well outside of broadcast. (Like Dollhouse which has low numbers, but great ITunes, DVD pre-orders, Hulu performance)
Michael – not that it’s a massive difference, but I suspect Fox sees the ratings as more around the 1.3 mark. 1.0 was for one episode, on the day Star Trek was out.
I also suspect Fox sees 1.3 as a nadir, from which Dollhouse can climb up. Dollhouse didn’t start getting good press until towards the end of the series, and the quality of early episodes put a large number of people off. Season Two should (hopefully) start with the benefit of this new critical acclaim, the benefit of Fox showing confidence in the show, and a certain amount of word of mouth support. And even if all of that doesn’t work, it’s unlikely the ratings will fall at this point, and Whedon has been asked to make enough cuts in the budget to ensure the show is profitable even with low ratings.
notty22, you actually still believe anything Lanie has to say?? Any credibility she didn’t even have in the first place went away when she posted that fake “leaked finale review”.
And still on the sex-bot shtick I see. How’s that working for ya? Also, how’s that Leven Rambin/Riley shrine going for ya?
@ Elaniel
ya thats what there probably gonna do since they know any show they move there will turn out to be a ratings bust!
but i would srsly love them to put American Idol on friday nights and see how it effects the ratings……and the Box Office =]
if they want to dollhouse survive to the complete season Fox has to put give their best lead in house or Idol
Something funky is going on with this renewal I sense there’s a deal behind the scenes or something that we don’t know about that’s making this possible. Let’s be realistic DH’s ratings are down the toilet through the pipes and into the sewer system. There’s no way it’s going to put up much better numbers next year. Even CW would probably consider canceling it with these kinds of numbers.
Brian D, it would be a shoo-in for renewal on the CW. They barely get a 1.0 in anything Mon-Fri.
Nick C, heard a rumor from a reporter friend of mine – since you hear thing have you heard this? They said Fox is willing to pick up TSCC but they want it cheap as well? TSCC fans, dont get your hopes up – i dont how much water it holds.
Perhaps notty22, fans are more inclined to believe what Summer Glau herself said about Cameron and a third season.
Lanie has no credibility, her or she is just a troll who managed to scare some fans with his/her blog. I’m not even sure who or what Lanie even is at this point.
Unlike other fans I thought Leven did a decent job at what she was given. Her story line took too long to resolve, and her lines were poor at times. None of which was her fault. If it was her intention to be hated, she did a great job at doing so. If she wanted some compassion for her final scene, then she accomplished that as well.
The simple fact is that some fools were predicting doom for Dollhouse before it even aired and they were pissed it got on TV in the first place. Those same people then attacked it while it was on an continually stating it was going to be pulled off air before the season finished. When they were once again proved to be know-nothing f*ckwits they switched to sagely predicting it was now gone for good because Fox had canceled.
How much more dumb*ss nonsense do you need to hear from these muppets before you realize they have had an agenda from the start and no amount of reality checks will make them deviate from that goal?
They NEED Dollhouse to fail in some way in order for the predictions they made before it was broadcast to be somehow vindicated. Its almost like a gambler chasing his losses not realizing how increasing stupid and irrational their behavior is becoming.
Anna Torv has no relation to Rupert Murdoch, you idiots (Nick C). Her father’s sister was married to him, but she hasn’t had a relationship with her father or his family since she was a child.
And if you go to most sites/blogs/reviews, people now love Anna and how she portrays Olivia, particularly in the last few episodes. Go to Fringe-Forum, or even the imdb boards, where no one is safe. Check out Bad Dreams, she was fantastic in it.
Way to go Joss, and way to go Fox. I’m really glad that Fox is going to try to make this work. Now it’s up to all the Browncoats and Actives and everyone else and their mother to get people to watch the first season so they’ll be as eager for the second season as we are.
Joss has a universe established… now it’s time for him to do what he does best. For those out there who wonder where the show can go now that Ballard works for the Dollhouse and Mellie is gone, clearly you don’t know Joss very well.
In any case, I’m pleased that television is evolving to keep up with the times. This is the right move, and it will pay off for Fox when they’re ahead of the curve as the landscape changes.
Wow… Just Wow…
I’m reading a lot about how good is Dollhouse in internet, DVR and DVD pre-orders , but can someone give numbers ? Becuase I cannot see any other reason to renew a show with such bad rating .
Can anyone imagine the rage from the TSCC Fanboys if any of the TSCC cast should wind up on Dollhouse? In a way Summer Glau may be thankful in the future that TSCC was canned, the “Cameron” role has the potential to “Spock” her and kill her career post TSCC.
~Lanie~
I think Dollhouse can kill the career of any actor … I do not see how a girl with the potential of Summer should have a role in Dollhouse …I’m sure she has much better opportunites in showbiz …
Since this has turned into a hybrid thread (DH/TSCC), I’ll take the opportunity to say the information here does change my mind a little about my predictions for TSCC.
Obviously, any renewal on any network would involve a significant change in the show. The last episode made it impossible for it to be any other way, and supports the idea that the series was originally intended to run two seasons, leading up to the release of T4. Any future show would also probably not be called “The *SARAH* Conner Chronicles.” The action always follows John.
Also obviously, since this was part of the 2005 article in Variety, the show was always intended as a support to the larger re-boot of the franchise in theaters, and the proposed set of three movies was always described as a re-boot. If a tv show can help the franchise going forward, there will be one. Somewhere.
RSH, for the record, I stopped watching Fringe almost solely because of Anna Torv. I watched the first three episodes and thought they were HORRIBLE. I heard the show picked up around episode 9 (lucky for Fringe it wasn’t on Fridays, eh?), but I couldn’t bear to go back to watching that emotionless actress.
If the show does well despite her, that doesn’t mean she’s adequate – it means she isn’t bad enough to ruin it for most people. But then, who is? Think about the kinds of shows and celebrities that are popular today, and it will become exceedingly clear that most people don’t really care about the talent of their actors or know anything about acting at all.
Lanie, I agree with you.
I agree that Summer is in big danger of being typecast as “the weird sci-fi girl” and that different roles (this movie she just signed up on) will only help her career.
As for TSCC fanboys… this DH renewal has certainly brought out the worst of the lot. The arrogance of some people at the wiki is enormous.
Fridays have reached a whole new level of dead with this news. Networks will put anything out there apparently…with Southland’s recent numbers, that’s where I’d put it next year.
This may have been addressed already in the comments above, if so, I’m sorry, but there were already like 200 and I read through the first 50 or so and didn’t see anything, so I was curious. I know that some people that post here are “in the know”, and was just curious if, now that it’s been renewed, anyone knew if there were any plans to air that unaired episode sometime before the start of next season. I’m gonna buy the DVD, so I’ll see it either way, it just seemed weird to me that you’d have a show running on-air with a “missing episode”, so to speak. Unless it’s like, completely standalone, kind of like what I heard they’re doing with the end of Prison Break…but a little different because that’s a finale situation where they closed off the end of the storyline. I’m sure there’re other examples of this…just seemed a little odd I thought…
Her father’s sister was married to him
So that would make him her uncle. I don’t know about your family, but when my uncles divorced, my aunts were still my aunts. You can still call in a lot of favors even if you haven’t had much of a relationship in a while.
Some of you need to remember that when you post a comment the length of The Doomsday Book people skip it. Too long means too boring and too much time to read it.
TSCC is the far superior show with much more potential.
I don’t know Julia…That is some distant relation there. I wonder if they have even met?…lol
TSCC, a decent show with more viewers, is canceled and yet Dollhouse a bad show with horrible lead actor is saved. I think that is what is pissing TSCC fans off.
David4, you are right. I’m a big fan of TSCC, and it is an awesome show. The last six episodes of this season were some of the best in the series. It never dropped below 3 million viewers (which Dollhouse did), and yet Dollhouse is getting renewed? Dollhouse has had one (count ‘em, one) episode that has blown me away, and that was Episode Six. Otherwise, the show hasn’t been that great. It’s either been filler or it makes no sense. Terminate Dollhouse and give us Terminator!
I think Dollhouse fans fit the demographic that Fox wants much more than TSCC. TSCC seems to attract a lot of single male loners, households of 1. Who are generally non daters- shut ins. Summer Glau the robot Cameron is like a religion to them . A subservient mechanical blow up doll that will never talk back.
Doghouse Reilly says:
May 15th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Pfft. This does nothing to make up for FOX not renewing John Doe for a second season.
You got that right!
The biggest cancellation cliffhanger in the history of television.
I’m glad that they are giving Dollhouse a chance.I initially said that this show wouldn’t make it through 4 episodes,let alone getting renewed.It started weak but showed some real promise as it progressed.
Even if they keep it on Friday nights,it’s gotta be better viewing than the other crap Fox likes to put on Friday nights,or stuff like “Don’t Forget The Lyrics” or “Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader”.Enough of crap like that.I’m all for putting more shows that have an actual script and plot back on,no matter how bad they are.
As for the TSCC comments,while I love the show,if it doesn’t come back I will feel completely satisfied the way that it ended,especially leading up to the movie(even though they say that they are not really connected).I think the more that they try to do,the more potential for them to mess it up.I say leave it alone,or do a 2 hour movie to tie up the loose ends and call it a day.
David4 – T:SCC was a good show, with critical acclaim, that started to deteriorate about a third of the way through, to a point that most people would want a fairly dramatic overhaul of the show if it were to be renewed for third season.
Dollhouse was a show that started off terribly, with (IMNSHO) two of the first five episodes being almost unwatchable, one being bad, and the other two being OK, that suddenly turned around and became a critical success for the last seven episodes.
When the two shows were shown at the same time, Dollhouse consistently had higher ratings that T:SCC.
T:SCC deteriorated, Dollhouse improved. I’m not sure to what extent that influenced Fox, but I’m sure it had some effect from the point of view of “Can we turn these poor ratings around?”
@Gusar
Stunned that you agree with me on anything, but thanks.
@Clark
All hardcore fans of any show think that about their show!
I hope Dollhouse succeeds in its new Season 2. A DH demise will not do TSCC any good in any way. The shows are not tied together, nor are they in competition in any way. That whole notion is ridiculous.
Good Luck DH
~Lanie~
UH, we don’t know how much it mattered in the decision, but while the first 9 DOLLHOUSE episodes averaged a 1.58 demo rating Live+SD, the same episodes averaged a 2.12 demo Live+7. (Insert obligatory “Which is still not much!” and “We don’t know, if Fox bothers to look at that numbers!” and “Even if Remote Free TV pushed the ratings to competitive C+3-levels, next year it’ll be gone!” here.)
Summer Glau has a lot more to lose by getting cast as a doll on Dollhouse than she does playing Cameron for a third season on TSCC. If TSCC has “damaged” her career, than the damage has been done. It’s only one role, and she’s getting tons of praise for it anyway so that can’t be bad. And honestly, I don’t understand why anyone still takes Lanie Grace seriously after that phony review of the Terminator finale she made up.
@Lanie: Believe me, I’m equally stunned.
@Timstuff: In this case I just happen to agree with Lanie. Summer being in danger of typecasting is nothing new though. I don’t think one bit that TSCC has hurt her (quite the opposite, it have her a lot of exposure), but a Dollhouse stint just might. That movie she’ll be doing is certainly a better career move.
I didn’t read all these comments so I don’t know if someone else posted this, but the renewal is CONFIRMED by network reps
http://thefutoncritic.com/news.aspx?id=8098
Apparently FOX is also lining up a sixth season of So You Think You Can Dance to begin airing in the fall, immediately following this summer’s fifth season.
“When the two shows were shown at the same time, Dollhouse consistently had higher ratings that T:SCC.”
For a little while, but Dollhouse just barely beat TSCC in the final weeks. The last few postings here actually have TSCC a tiny bit ahead of Dollhouse.
“T:SCC deteriorated, Dollhouse improved.”
TSCC stabilized itself after the Crazy Sarah debacle. Dollhouse never once shown the slightest ability towards improving or trending up. The vaunted 6th episode through the finale didn’t back up the claims either. The ratings say the fans tuned out. They especially tuned out when TSCC left and was replaced by Prison Break.
If Fox is happy with 2.75 million, then so be it. It was entirely about DH’s cost, not better ratings, critically acclaim, or quality.
Can I say – and you can go back and check the posts, I had said that there was an option being discussed for a 13 episode commitment for next year? And I posted that here around Episode 10. I even posted the damn financial requirements. Vindicated, bitches.
Whiny and/or cocky bitcas’ comments here are annoying me. Whatever.
I wonder if multiplying Friday shows’ #’s by 1.5 would give a more accurate barometer for Fridays. Like, Ghost Whisperer/Numbers would be 3-ish then. Which would be perfectly decent. And Flashpoint while rendered still slightly under 3 is a Canadian co-production so that would be fine. Hmm. Something like Dollhouse does have factors outside of just the #’s though, like say the knowledge of Whedon’s rabid fanbase who will very likely obsess and snatch up DVD’s, among other things.
*laughs at everyone who declared the show was dead*
DH is amazing, I’m so glad its being brought back.
What the… Where is TSCC renewal?!
SAVE TERMINATOR!!!
WATCH:
http://www.fox.com/fod/play.php?sh=tscc
JOIN:
http://terminatorwiki.fox.com/thread
TSCC is dead. FOX hasn’t had plans to bring it back for months. It took Warner some major advertising dollars to keep TSCC on the air. The general opinion is the quality was sub-par and bad sci-fi.
RSH, so panels, polling, etc. don’t work? You going to tell me that Nielsen ratings are all off gigantically too? It’s a fact, she can’t act. I made a career of knowing such things and having higher accuracy at predicting hits than my counterparts. I know Rupert and I know for a fact that she has her job because of him. It isn’t my opinion, it’s a fact. Are you seriously suggesting I made it up? Try reading the books published that were written by Anna Murdoch and tell me they deserved to be published by a major publication. Rupert often does absurd things for family.
sushiroll, last I checked her father’s sister was married to Rupert for something like 30 years. She was even named after her Aunt! Yes, the divorce was bitter, but Rupert has a liking to his niece. Since he calls her his niece, I’m going with her being his niece.
Nick C:
“In fact if I had the power to bring the show back I’d make him start from the last episode of FIREFLY and ignore the movie just because that was a bad move.”
What a sensible fellow you are.
andywhitto:
“I can tell you the budget for TSCC was cut a lot in the second season, it is part of the reason for the fillers,”
Rubbish. The fillers where because of bad writers with no ideas. You don’t have to blow up shit to make a good episode.
Nick C:
“TSCC is more expensive than DOLLHOUSE even with Warner giving it away for the back 9.”
Why though? It seems they have no standing sets, they just walk around from town to town and shoot some stuff at what ever background happens to be there! Or is it the “talent”?
That said, if they got rid of Sarah and son, kept teenage terminator and the Scottish terminator, john henry and black cop – they’d have whole new dynamic of people with some charisma *g*
Nick C:
“at least now they have an idea of how best to work with Joss creatively”
Do they? Joss is an auteur and wants to make art for the masses whether they want it or not, Fox is there for the big bucks – and never the twain shall meet. Personally I’m hoping they’ll get rid of Dushku and get someone who can act (i know her deal), but perhaps it makes fiscal sense if she pulls double duty as doll and producer.
Richard Steven Hack:
“this should erase the “Fox cancels everything Whedon does” meme”
Yeah, now it’ll be “Fox cancels everything good Whedon makes”
Nick C:
“script I had for it, they better hope people don’t review it before it comes out too!”
Based on the trailer I’ll review it for you now: Its depressing rubbish! *g*
Richard Steven Hack:
“I still don’t know why everybody hates Anna Torv. I find her believable and very likable. ”
Not everybody, I agree with you. I think she’s very good, she’s just not the usual cliche type (like Michael O’Hare on Babylon 5) – but it seems a hating hit squad is cruising around – I was watching a clip on youtube where someone had written he loved Anna Torv and immediately a hater had moderated it down *g*
Nick C:
“Again if Rupert Murdoch weren’t her Uncle do you really think she’d have ever even received the part in the first place?”
Yes, because I go by what I see on the screen – not some personal hate agenda. Perhaps you dislike her exactly because he is her uncle?
Richard Steven
“People just have ridiculously high standards for actors. ”
I think its more that too many people want them to behave in the way they like.
Nick C:
“RSH, she scores horribly on panels. More than 50% of the audience has problems with her.”
American audiences perhaps?
“It wasn’t an actor who was noticing her microexpressions,” ”
Are you displaying macroexpressions as you type this?
“but a professional psychologist who specializes in micro expressions and is used an expert for the series LIE TO ME. It’s not an opinion she is actually showing true disgust.”
No, its still an opinon – just from someone with expertise in the area – which doesn’t mean she is without fault or always correct – perhaps she is in the 50% of people who dislike her on principle – ie, just biased and inclined to be negative.
I’m a very skeptical person, and I sense no lying from her.
Nick C:
“Panels don’t lie. The majority of people from panels had some kind of problem with her. She’s abysmal.”
Bla bla bla. Show us some proof of those panels. Who are in them? Uneducated American morons who are afraid of strangers? Perhaps that’s the problem, they can sense she’s not one of them!
Amazing, from liking you at the top, I’m now down to thinking you are a bit of a twit *g*
Nick C says:
“Why did Altman have to be bought for a nomination?”
A libel you haven’t proved btw.
“Torv remained on the show because her Uncle wanted her on the show.”
If that is true, that may explain why you all hate her. You lost all ability to be objective a long time ago.
“If she was “adequate,” then certain people I know wouldn’t be upset that she was “forced,” on to the show.”
She is not “adequate” she’s very good.
“She’s not a good actress and most people have some kind of problem with her. ”
Show your proof.
“However that doesn’t change the fact that most people have a problem with her.”
Show your proof.
“Does it hurt your feelings that you think she’s adequate and the majority disagree?”
I can’t speak for him, but I’m puzzled at this totally over the top misogynistic volcano of hate spewing out from you. Perhaps she dumped you or something. Is that it? Aww, poor guy *g*
“It’s like people that think Tori Spelling or Paris Hilton can act…”
Now you are just being silly.
Lanie Grace:
“I agree with RSH that Friedman has run TSCC so far down a hole, that digging it out would be impossible and probably did so on purpose.”
No no, a creative shovel could dig it out again
oh and regarding this blog, come now everybody, by all signs in the wind (and elsewhere) this was a show headed for cancellation, its by the strangest of coincidences that it was renewed, I don’t think this in anyway hurts this blog – after all they quite clearly state facts as facts and speculations as speculation. In this reality the show got renewed, in the one where Olivia Dunham currently resides it got canceled, that’s the way the quantum cookie crumbles
I’m apparently in the minority on this one now but I really don’t think Dollhouse has become creatively viable – the episodes have undoubtedly gotten better but given how bad the first half of the season was that’s not a huge achievement. Its just been an inherently flawed season and the (Fox) finale had moments of Heroes ‘quality’ writing when it came to character and storyline continuity.
Whedon and co. need to do something dramatically different with the second season and I’d guess that Fox must have liked whatever Whedon pitched for season two because as cheap as it might be they must have somne massive fatih in the creative for it next year.
I’m very gld I refrained from promising to eat a herpes infested hat if dollhouse was renewed. If they move it to another night after this then its got a sliver of logic, keep it on fridays again and I want the speedballs the Fox exec’s are having.
It’s sad to hear TSCC fans hate on the Dollhouse renewal. As fans of genre shows we are always at a huge risk of losing our TV obsessions. The Dollhouse renewal is a blessing for all genre fans (even if you don’t like this particular show). If the restructuring goes well and the cost is truly low budget then we could see an increase in the longevity of these types of scripted series. The successful renewal of this show could lead to a new model that makes it possible for your next obsession to stick around longer than current models allow. So stop complaining that TSCC wasn’t the chosen one and just thank your lucky stars that at least one (so far) genre show has made it another season.
I am just excited to see where everything will finally fall into the Fall schedule (crossing fingers for Chuck/ Dollhouse not competing head to head on Fridays).
Ped I’m pretty much in the opposite frame of mind to you when it comes to where Dollhouse should be placed a renewal on Friday is pretty much the only way this makes sense to me – for reasons Nick has outlined already. Plus I’m not entirely sure how Fox would ever be able to sell Dollhouse to advertisers on any night but Friday at this point.
You do make a good point Alex, I didn’t think about that. I wonder how low they would allow dollhouse to go in S2 and still be happy. Renewing on the back of a 1.0 makes me genuinely curious, the form book on this seems to have been if not torn up defaced by a suger injected toddler.
I am not obsessed or a fanboy. TSCC is just the far superior show.
Nick C, while your inside information is generally accurate, whenever you voice your opinions you make me puke in my mouth.
Kermonk, TSCC costs more because the Brand is worth more. TERMINATOR as a name comes with some cost for FOX.
As for Anna Torv, I’ve seen the panel results. It has nothing to do with her being Australian. Australians and Brits usually score much higher with American panels than you’d think. She isn’t good or even comfortable with her part. There are times and certain scenes where I’ll say she’s far more than adequate. Those scenes aren’t what the show is based on, and the majority of work she has to do she is uncomfortable with. Her fake smiles are pointed out a lot by panelists. While the majority dislike her or state being uncomfortable with her, the ones who like her at around 30% seem to be practically infatuated. I’m going to just guess you land in that group and no facts are going to change your opinion (and they shouldn’t, your opinion is quite valid to the most important person: you).
I get along quite well with Rupert and if he wants his Niece on the show, that’s his business (literally). I have no issues with “vanity casting,” or “vanity publishing,” etc. If you make an empire, it’s yours to do with as you wish. So your idea that I dislike her because of her Uncle is rubbish.
You and RSH attacking people because their opinion is different than yours, is just silly. Even if you’re not outnumbered it would be silly.
Well, will wonders never cease. Dollhouse back for season 2. Congrats DH, I’ll be watching in the fall.
Terminator fans you have my deepest condolences but QUIT wailing on Nick C. He predicted DH’s renewal several weeks ago when he said that it had a 50/50 chance of coming back. So he’s not an “idiot”; far from it. If more people had listened to what he was saying, many wouldn’t be wearing egg all over their faces right now.
So crap Dollhouse gets renewed because the Fox execs really, really like Eliza and a 1.0 demo while they are still haggling over money for Bones. Any buzz about Bones going to CBS as I read in another forum?
Where do you guys think this is going to go? Are they going to take a second crack at sci-fi Fridays, or will this get a different night?
Remember, Fox’s fall schedule is always lean due to the lack of 24 and American Idol. It could hold 24’s spot warm on Mondays, it could pair up with Fringe on Tuesdays, or it could stay on Fridays with a new lead-in.
Either way I think it’ll be a 13-episode second season that will run through the fall and then be off the schedule for winter and spring.
This should erase what few doubts there were that Lie to Me is getting renewed, too.
If they really want to keep Dollhouse then they should put it on with HOUSE and IDOL like they did with FRINGE. That is the #1 way to keep an awful show on the air over at FOX.
Reality is, TSCC had a lackluster ratings first season, and fox did the unusual and brought it back for a full second season to see if it could grow into something. It didn’t happen, the ratings never grew.
Dollhouse had a lackluster ratings first season, and Fox is giving it a chance to grow into something.
The same rule seems to apply; Dollhouse gets next year to grow it’s fanbase or die. TSCC, no matter creatively this or that, didn’t grow it’s base from year 1, and it had a full season commitment to try.
Fox should get commended by TSCC fans for giving it a chance, something most other networks would have given up on. Think TSCC would have gotten a renew on CBS? Or even made it to 1/2 a season? Even ABC? Fox gave it a chance, it didn’t work, that’s the end. Dollhouse now has the same hook over it’s head.
Why is everyone so surprised?
Eliza Dushku’s last FOX outing, Tru Calling, was renewed for a second season, and it had similar ratings but on a night where I’m sure more was expected of it (Thursday).
Granted, it was cancelled after only 6 episodes of the second season were produced and 5 aired. Here’s to hoping the same won’t happen with Dollhouse.
Terminator wiki fans don’t even back their own fellow fans. That is why the show sank, bunch of selfish robot loving looking out for #1 children. The Jamerons split the fanbase, and whats left of it are now pointing fingers accusing them of being Dollhouse fans. And helping sink their precious TSCC. I have seen it all.
will you be offended if knight rider gets renewed?
Nick C., please answer this question. What would it take for Dollhouse to get the back 9 order and have a 22 episode season? Secondly, why haven’t they any other day of the week?
Why haven’t they tried Dollhoue on any other day of the week?
Alex, I tried telling you through out the season… this was going to happen. They kept telling me they loved where the show was going, etc. They obviously were not lying to me and it wasn’t “just talk,” as has also been hinted at. They (Kevin and the Pete) like the show and where it is headed. They actually showed EPITAPH ONE (the unaired episode) to a lot of people and are showing it to people on Monday at the upfront presentations. They obviously like what they see.
@dovepage
Hart Hanson just twittered that Bones has been confirmed as being picked up for a fifth season.
Nick C, off-topic question: Do you know _anything_ about the movie Summer Glau signed up with? A title, anything?
Chris, TERMINATOR was a hit in its first season. It averaged 11M viewers and had nice demo numbers. Now sure that number is seriously screwed with because the pilot was watched by 19M people. However the second episode was watched by over 10M people, and then after that it kind of averaged out at around 8.5M people. It did pull in decent demo numbers though. So it wasn’t a lackluster show by any means. When it came back for season 2 and only had 6M viewers which immediately dropped to 5M viewers for the second episode and on it was dead. It even at one point had only 4M viewers on a Monday! The demo numbers dropped as well.
Warner saved it, and FOX moved it to Fridays and tried to keep interest with their SCI FI Friday plan. However that bombed and TSCC bombed on Fridays, considered a “1.2,” under normal viewing conditions (no big movie releases, etc.) and this wasn’t enough for FOX to keep it around.
Creatively the show just went downhill. I think the show had some really talented people on it. The plots were the problem. Nothing anyone did could make up for them. It was bad TV. It was bad SCI FI.
FRINGEFAN, a return to 1.8+ type of numbers on Friday. Joss has all summer and some conventions to wow fans and get some new viewers. They need to stand up and say FOX believes in them and proved it. It doesn’t matter it is on Friday, watch it, FOX wants it to succeed.
They won’t move it off Friday because right now, it’s a bad idea. They have some solid new shows coming and they need to give those shows the better time slots. DOLLHOUSE is going to do ok on Friday. Seems SCI FI Friday will live on with a combination of PAST LIFE and DOLLHOUSE.
Gusar, it was mentioned to me once. I’ve sent out a couple emails to find out the title. It didn’t resonate with me when it was said to me.
I know this has been said before but if people have forgot.notty22 is a idiot.
Kermonk says:
May 16th, 2009 at 11:03 am
…Why though? It seems they have no standing sets, they just walk around from town to town and shoot some stuff at what ever background happens to be there!…
———————-
You make that sound rather trivial. It takes a great deal of effort to line up real-world locations for shooting scenes. There are permits required. ALL the equipment needed must be trucked in, set up, then trucked away afterward. Actors and sets have to be cordoned off from the public. Security needs to be all over the place. Traffic must be blocked or redirected. Schedules must be strictly adhered to, as many locations may be available for a limited amount of time, or during certain hours. Many locations won’t be available for free.
There are a lot of logistic, cost, and scheduling concerns that aren’t an issue when filming on a set. There’s a reason many TV shows are filmed on sound stages. It’s cheaper and far more convenient.
“I think people keep comparing her to Gillian Anderson – who wasn’t nearly as likable (or good looking), but perhaps was taken more seriously because she played it that way.”
I’m sorry, what? Gillian Anderson was (and is) insanely talented. She made Dana Scully into one of the most beloved tv characters of all time. Anna Torv has *nothing* on her. And don’t even talk about good looking. GA is still one of the sexiest women on the planet at 40 years old. Back in her XF days, she was simply devastating. There is no comparison.
Wash your mouth out.
I love you Sarah…lol
Gillian Anderson is a wonderful actress.
Anna Torv’s facial expressions on Fringe remind me of Jodie Foster’s facial expressions in Contact. Seriously? Yes, they do. However, Jodie Foster is still a better actress.
“So that would make him her uncle. I don’t know about your family, but when my uncles divorced, my aunts were still my aunts. You can still call in a lot of favors even if you haven’t had much of a relationship in a while.”
Not if the incredibly messy divorce happened when she was really little and she doesn’t speak with that side of the family anymore, doof.
Two quotes from Anna:
“That’s why people often ask me: Are you related to Rupert Murdoch, did that help you get the job? And I laugh. “Did you see the divorce? Like, no, I don’t think that helped.”"
“The Australian star of the new BBC series Mistresses, which began on Channel Seven on Tuesday, said she resented being associated with her billionaire uncle, whose former wife is another Anna Torv, sister of the actor’s estranged father, radio broadcaster Hans Torv.
“I hate that that even comes up,” Torv said. “I’ve been estranged from my father since I was eight.”"
Nick C- JJ Abrams found Anna Torv NOT Murdoch. You should watch her in Mistresses, she was fantastic in the series. Not sure where you’re getting your info from, but it seems like you’re making it up.
I wasn’t too keen on her at first, but Anna has been fantastic on Fringe, especially on recent episodes.
Yes, sushiroll, because she would just come out and say, “I only got the part because my uncle owns News Corp.”
I always felt the weakest actor on Fringe was Jackson. He has the same posture and tone throughout the series.
wow, talk about a derailed topic…
Kevin Reilly really likes Dollhouse? Why doesn’t Rupert fire him for renewing the show. Nick?
sushiroll, yes and Tori Spelling got her role on 90210 without the producers ever knowing she was the daughter of their boss! Do you believe that story too?
Nick C., what did the panels say about John Noble and Joshua Jackson on Fringe? Because a lot of sites love the both of them. So, I’m curious.
Nick C, TSCC dipped below 5M once – the week of 11/24 and the rating share only dipped below 2.0 twice, a 1.8 on 11/24 and a 1.9 on 12/8. You’re saying TSCC’s numbers dropped? It stayed in the mid 5M mark on Momdays. I know those are numbers to write home about but stop making it seem like TSCC went from a 6.3M season 2 debut to 1 viewer.
I’m referring to Monday nights, not Friday.
TT, and those numbers are good numbers why? The season 2 debut was bad and it only got worse.
FringeFan, Noble scored well, but Jackson usually always scores high. In later panels (for some shows in the second half of the season) Noble and his assistant in the lab scored extremely high, with Jackson again scoring well.
Do you read? I said it’s nothing to write home about.
Actually TT you said:
“I know those are numbers to write home about”
yeah… i saw that. i apologize old chap. i meant they’re not anything to write home about.
But you should’ve inferred and known what i was talking about. i’m not crazy and thinking 5M viewers is good is crazy.
But alas, it’s Saturday and nice out. i’m not going to sit infront of a computer screen all day. i’m going to a barbecue.
Well, toss back a couple of cold ones for me.
i’m beyond stunned right now. this renewal makes no sense. there is no way you can argue for this show getting a second season. i am nearly speechless.
TT, ok but the show did go from 19M to 3M, or 8.5M to 3M if you just count the last episode of season 1 to the last episode of season 2. It lost viewers in a big way, and it only remained on the air because Warner fought for it to remain on the air.
Nick I had similar thoughts at the start of the season and before the show debuted – if Fox were happy with the evolving creative direction and serious about building Friday’s they’d renew almost regardless of the numbers and I stuck with that general line for the first half of the season as well. The problem I personally have at this point is that I don’t have any faith in the creative direction, although admittedly I’m basing that purely on what I’ve seen on the second half of this season, which whilst improved from the first half of the season was still pretty bad. And I hated the (Fox) finale, which had such bad character consistency it made Heroes for the past two years look like a masterpiece.
As things stand I just don’t have any faith in the show to turn things around creatively and by extension ratings wise, I just think the shows a complete bust. Whedon would have needed to pitch something super extraordinary for me to change my view on that because the characters, stories, mythology and morality of the show have been so muddled, poorly written and developed that there’s just nothing of interest there.
I can understand their reasoning behind it I just completely disagree with it.
FOX will lost some money renewing this show!
Some networks are really stupid like Fox and Abc and Nbc.
ABCFanatic, that’s just the thing… Fox renewed this because they are not losing money on it.
Also… if Fox, Abc and Nbc are stupid, what’s left? CW? Are they not stupid?
Besides, ABC renewed Castle. No way I can be mad at them.
I don’t know about that, they can’t have been doing much money with Dollhouse in S1. I’d think it’s more of what they think they can make on a S2 if the show picks up, if they can turn around the shameful ratings….???
So if Past Life pairs with Dollhouse… where do they put Sons of Tucson and Brothers? MadTV concludes, but that spot is taken by Wanda Sykes.
Would Fox move one of their new hour long shows to follow AI, like they did with Fringe?
Chad if rumours of what they’re picking up pan out how Fox works their schedule when Idol comes back mid-season will be fun to see, assuming they don’t axe a couple of shows midseason.
Alex, I didn’t see any character development issues with DOLLHOUSE like you see in HEROES. Agent Ballard is no longer an agent and he wants to bring down the doll house, but save Caroline. He helped save Caroline from Alpha but still wants to bring down the doll house. He can’t do that at the FBI. He learned that. I’m pretty sure we’ll learn in season 2 that he believes he can take the doll house down from the inside. He’s also going to learn he is not alone. He also got to save the doll who he fell for before finding out she was a doll.
Lets be honest many of the early episodes were total crap. That episode that revolved around the singer? Crap. The show did pick up in quality and it has signs of possibly going much further. I think Joss and his staff were just beginning to get a handle on it.
They threw a lot into that finale, and we don’t know or understand the motivations behind the decisions certain people made. I’m sure in season 2 we will learn them.
Thomas Dekker (John Connor) on YouTube talking about fans trying to save the show and that as of May 14 does not know if the show is getting picked up or not. If you want to believe that or not…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7B2IYR-HCo
If this is him in real life, then his skill as an actor is pretty epic….
I had multiple issues with the Dollhouse finale but Ballard was easily the biggest of them.
He spends the entire season hunting down the Dollhouse and repeating his desire to bring it down and then spends the finale helping to keep them a secret and cover themselves. Then after spending the season stressing his desire to save Echo/Caroline from the Dollhouse he ends the season delivering her back to the Dollhouse. And then to top all of that off he ends up agreeing to work for them. The whole thing was just so poorly written and laid out but I could have lived with it if the episodes that proceeded it had done a better job of actually establishing who Ballard is, why he wants to bring down the Dollhouse, why he wants to save Echo and things of that nature.
In general terms my problem was less with the finale and more the general construction of the season as a whole – it was just throw everything at the wall and hope it sticks rather than taking the time to actually develop these ideas and make me care about them or understand the people. It was just filled with bad and lazy writing.
And don’t even get me started on Saunders/Whiskey being able to hack into Topher’s computer a week after we were told Alpha (who we’re repeatedly told is a genius, worked out how to remote wipe Echo and build his own programming chair amongst other things) couldn’t do it because the security was too tight. That was a page right out of Heroes book when it comes to awful writing.
Like I’ve said numerous times before though the writing has just made it impossible for me to actually care about any of these people to the point where I actually think Whedon would be better starting from scratch next year and ‘doing it right’ this time. Just make Ballard Echo’s new handler and bring in a new outside force to hunt down the Dollhouse.
Nick C: Don’t tell me I’m “attacking you” because my opinion differs on Anna Torv. That’s rubbish. You were the aggressive one here demanding everybody admit that she was a bad actor because of some “panels”. I merely derided the ridiculous notion that some idiot psychologist talking about “microexpressions” made any sense at all.
If you buy that crap, then fine for you. Most people couldn’t care less about that nonsense.
“If the show does well despite her, that doesn’t mean she’s adequate – it means she isn’t bad enough to ruin it for most people.”
Which is precisely what I mean by adequate.
And whether she was cast because of her relationship with Murdoch is also absolutely irrelevant to the point.
As for anybody comparing Gillian Anderson to Torv on looks, well, sorry, I find Torv to be much better looking. Of course, she’s considerably younger than Anderson is now, which has to be taken into consideration. Such opinions are also both personal and irrelevant to the point.
No, what we have here is a bunch of “Torv haters” who have a vested interest in hating Torv, just like Notty22 has a vested interest in hating Summer Glau.
I don’t expect Anna Torv to ever get an Emmy – and I don’t require her to. It’s that simple. Scream all you want, that’s my opinion and you aren’t going to change it.
GiantBigHamburgers (love that handle!): Yeah, Dekker is the exact opposite of the depressed character he plays on TSCC. He’s always “up” – that or he looks like he’s on crack! LOL!
I’m amazed Summer Glau could ever deal with him. She’s quiet, introverted, shy – he’s a complete flake at all times. He’s best friends with Lena, though – she’s smart and fast and extroverted, too. They work on a lot of film projects together.
But he’s cool, too. He obviously is very, very smart and works very hard because he’s involved in many projects of his own. He acts in films. directs film, produces film and Web projects, makes music albums, guy does it all. At 21 you’ve got to wonder how he gets his clout in the business. Either he’s very smart and works hard – or as Ryan Reynolds said in “Blade: Trinity”, he dates a lot of older men! LOL!
If you actually payed attention to the episode. Topher himself imprinted her with the skills to hack his computer as was said by Saunders in their conversation. He wanted Saunders/Whiskey to hate him. Why? nobody knows yet. Pay attention before ripping into the show.
sorry I forgot to say my response was in regard to Alex’s post
Alex, I can understand your issues with Ballard, but I can also understand Ballard “assisting” the Dollhouse in the way he is. It’s not outside the realm of possibility that his own motivations are so screwed up – not to mention his estrangement from the FBI, where, as a character, he doesn’t seem to fit – that he might do what he did.
It’s like the FBI agent in “Fast and Furious”. He does the exact same thing in the movie. He starts out as an FBI agent and turns into a criminal by the end of the movie. So it’s not like it’s never been done. Even Fox Mulder wasn’t exactly “crack FBI material” for most of the X-Files.
However, I agree that the dynamic of the show needs to change. As I’ve said before, they should have set it up so that Echo/Caroline was an EX-Doll on the run from the Dollhouse, helping Ballard track it down, with flashbacks showing her engagements as a Doll. That would have given her character a specific personality and role that audiences could engage with.
I figure Whedon has probably figured out how to fix the issues by now. Or, as I indicated elsewhere, he could do a Friedman and just jump the shark in season two, regardless. I think, however, that Joss Whedon is considerably the better show runner than Friedman, since Whedon has several successful series under his belt and Friedman has zero successes, in fact, no experience other than TSCC at show running at all.
So I say cut Whedon some slack until season 2 starts and see what he does with the first few episodes. We’ll know by, say, episode four whether the show will change enough to survive.
Dollhouse will still be on fridays, but I wonder what it’s lead in will be????
It’s interesting to think how Dollhouse will turn out.
Scenario #1
Dollhouse still doesn’t perform as well on fridays and FOX lets the show run out its 13 episodes.
Scenario #2
The series performs OK and it pulls a Terminator, where it gets a full season but ends up being axed.
Scenario #3
The series does a lot better 5-7 million and it gets a full season order with the possibilities of season 3.
What does everyone think? I think either 1 or 2, but most likely 1.
#1
I’m not experienced enough at watching Whedon shows to be able to guess. Do his shows normally start out as crap and then get really good in season two or not? If so, then scenario 2 sounds reasonable, and scenario 3 less likely (since I suspect the Dollhouse premise isn’t as promising as, say, Buffy.)
Otherwise scenario 1 would seem most likely.
However, if Whedon really does have a cool plan for the series, then scenario 3 is not impossible. I just don’t see any adequate evidence for that in season 1.
Dan, the demo is more important than the total numbers. If it gets a 1.8 regularly, I think they will order a full season. Maybe the Golden Globes or Emmys could give the show some sort of nomination, seeing as it’s on Fox, not WB.
Nick C., will this renewal prompt Fox to air the unaired episode with Felicia Day? You know, the standalone that has not aired yet. If they do air it during season 2, won’t that make it 14 episodes then? The one unaired episode plus 13 new ones. Or will they air that episode sometime during the summer? Or not at all?
RSH, to quote you “My capacity to judge an actor is just as good as yours – probably better”
You’re implying your opinion is better and more important than mine. You have a career in computers. I have a career in the entertainment industry. I got paid to know good from bad in the industry. From your ability to judge talent on FRINGE I’d say I’m better at computer repair than you too.
See how stupid that sounds?
You also remind me of people who don’t believe in evolution and must be just like people that used to believe the world was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, etc.
Micro-expressions are real. They’re very much proven. They are allowed in a court of law where as lie detector results are not. Since Dr. Ekman’s fantastic discoveries many in the movie and tv business have started to understand what makes a great actor or actress. They are people who are able to deliver their lines with the correct micro-expressions. Bad actors are people who allow certain powerful micro-expressions to show. Disgust is considered the biggest problem. Disgust turns viewers off (for the most part). Disgust is a very easy look to recognize even if it only flashes by. Your mind generally recognizes it. This means that technically Torv could improve, but right now she is not a good actress, but she’s not bad either. I believe it’s from being uncomfortable with certain scenes (because other scenes not of the genre she has truly shined at).
Panels btw are extremely accurate. Enough panels are run to get a solid idea of general opinion. I don’t believe in using panels as a bible for anything but casting. Panel based decisions have made good scripts go bad, etc. However, panels are great for casting. If every panel done shows that the majority don’t like someone, you should re-cast them. In Torv’s case it was never an option.
I’m sorry you’re so stubborn you want to attack others opinions based on your own. That’s just silly. I’m not making up the panels or the results. Why do their results bother you so? Calling me a “hater,” is absurd. I just stated facts. It is a fact she scored poorly in panels. Of the big 3 cast members there were more complaints about her online than the others. Fact. Why take it personally? It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be enjoying her on the show. Good for you.
Nick, sorry to break in on this discussion (which is pretty interesting, btw, and I totally agree about detecting those said expressions from actors and being taken out of the moment) but…have you heard any more about anything for the CW?
FringeFan, they will air the episode. I just don’t know when right now. I’ll know Monday.
Annie, CW has a Thursday upfront. That means they’ll be moving and shaking the most on Monday and Tuesday. PRIVILEGED is going up against BODY POLITIC, I hear it’s one or the other.
Thanks for the info. I really, really hope they put Privileged to rest and take a chance on BP.
So their M-F is something like: Gossip Girl, Vampire Diaries, One Tree Hill, 90210, Top Model, Melrose Place, Supernatural, Smallville, Body Politic/Privileged, ? What are they going to put in the last hour? Maybe the modeling drama or the Top Model semi-spinoff? It’d be better than putting a rerun of some show, like they’ve often done with Top Model.
Nick, Do you know how Eliza Dushku did with the casting panels for Dollhouse?
Some people, here, including Nick C. think that Anna Torv’s acting is bad since they don’t like her and she’s Rupert Murdoch’s niece. However, despite the fact (and she is Rupert Murdoch’s niece), I happen think that she’s a good actress. There are many actresses worse than her. Even though, Keira might be a nice person, I think that Keira Knghtley is a bad actress, much worse than Anna Torv. Also, while Jodie Foster is a better actress, her facial expressions in Contact are similar to Anna Torv’s in Fringe.
Correction Keira Knightley
animatsuri, Eliza always scores well.
I’ve changed my mind, in another thread, I said that I felt that Fringe stand alones were better than Dollhouse. I take that back. Only Fringe’s pilot was better than Dollhouse’s aired pilot. But, even Dollhouse’s stand alones were awful compared to the mythology. They felt too much like Ghost Whisperer. Every show including Dollhouse and Fringe should make their stand alones more like X Files in terms of quality writing. I know both shows are going in that direction, but the early stand alones were mostly awful except for that Dollhouse episode in the woods.
I’m glad Eliza scores well, she deserves it because she’s another actress that gets too much of a bad wrap.
Nick C, What is the magic number that Dollhouse to get in order to get the back 9 order? I know you said 1.8 when you were referring to my question about Fox moving the show from Friday, but is that really number the show will need in order to get a full 22 episode order? By the way, remember that Cheers and Sein feld and Cheers were once in the ratings basement at NBC and Brandon Tartikoff stood behind those two shows. Doesn’t that make Kevin Reilly a little bit like Brandon?
Frigging horrible. This ABOMINATION gets renewed over TSCC? Joss Whedon is a hack, he creates these pseudo-intellectual pseudo-esoteric crap-o-ramas whose base audience consist of fat girls and perpetually dateless man-whales. Supernatural is at least three times the show that Buffy the Vampire Layer was. And if I hear one more time about how “GREAT!” Firefly was, I’m gonna open a vein. I seriously don’t understand how this guy continues to do what he does.
I mean, at least with someone like JJ Abrams we have the bounty that is the general stupidity of the american public. Americans love mediocrity and tripe. With Whedon, his writing is always hackneyed, his shows are targeted at a VERY specific niche audience, etc, they get the gas chamber and die quietly. You’d at least expect the guy to be bankrupt or to have learned his lesson about having 1 fluke success and dozens of failures by now.
TSCC wasn’t a shining beacon of blockbusterdom by any stretch, but I think it was a great little show that was released at the wrong time and could’ve done better. But to take something that had even more abysmal ratings and renew it, over something that does, um, SUCK, yeah, that’s beyond the pale.
Unless they hire additional leads for Dollhouse my guess is that it continues to erode in the ratings. I like Elisa Dushku as an actress but she can’t carry a show & Dollhouse as it is now is not a true ensemble show. She was fine on Buffy and Angel as a support actor but I don’t see her capable of being the only lead on a show. Joss Whedon’s other shows (Buffy, Angel, Firefly) were what I’d consider true ensemble shows. Additional they had actors who could carry their show (Sarah Michelle Gellar, David Boreanaz, Nathan Fillion). The strongest actor on Dollhouse is Olivia Williams. Also, I considered all of the other Dolls way more interesting that Echo. Two of the most interesting were Mellie & Victor and they wrote them off in the season finale.
As for Joss Whedon’s other shows – Buffy, Angel & Firefly, I liked their pilots, all of the original characters from the get-go. I can’t say the same about Dollhouse. And to me it actually went down in quality during its run. I thought that that Dollhouse’s finale was one of its worst episodes. There were parts I liked but overall the episode was to me badly written and a huge letdown since they dumped the characters of Mellie & Victor in it, which I considered the 2 most interesting Dolls on the show and Ballard lost any rootability left that he had.
I don’t expect that Whedon is willing to make the changes necessary to make the show viable – the first of which in my opinion is to hire a lead for the show that can actually carry it as well as making it more of an actual ensemble show, and substantially decreasing Eliza Dushku’s role of Echo into that of a supporting character.
Keep yelling, Nick. Not making any impression on me.
I didn’t even say panels aren’t useful, just that nobody cares about them other than the studios doing the casting. Your average audience member doesn’t know about them and doesn’t care.
And you can tout the latest psychological con game all you want but psychology is ninety percent pseudoscience and BS. I’m sure there’s some smidgin of truth in all that micro-expression stuff, but it’s not definitive and anybody making casting decisions on it alone is an idiot. Like I said, everybody thinks Keanu Reeves can’t act and his career isn’t suffering.
“Of the big 3 cast members there were more complaints about her online than the others. Fact.”
No, BS. You can’t tell me you read every comment on every board about Fringe about Torv and you kept a running statistical tally of them. So don’t even try that nonsense on me. It’s your opinion and your IMPRESSION of other opinions, nothing more.
And the panels don’t bother me. It’s your excessive denunciations of an actress I find quite believable which are irritating. Re-emphasizing your opinion as fact is not convincing. If you think making aggressive statements is going to make me back down, believe me, you’re picking on the wrong dude. So you might as well drop it.
Fox, this is dumb.
Speaking of Fringe, that was the worst pilot I think I’ve seen in decades – the ridiculous premise, writing, horrible acting by all but a few actors, and lack of any chemistry at all between the 2 leads. J.J. Abrams shows typically start out great and then collapse into a mess. I tuned out of both Alias and Lost but his pilots were great on those in my opinion in contrast to that farce of a pilot he did for Fringe. And although I thought that the pilot of Dollhouse was bad, it was way better than Fringe’s pilot, which isn’t saying much. I had expected a lot more out of both shows. Fringe was so bad that I dropped watching it but I did continue to watch Dollhouse, although typically not live after the first couple of shows. I hoped that it would dramatically improve because there were elements that I liked but I didn’t really see any major improvement – just some minor improvement.
But each viewer likes what they like. What I am shocked at is that such a low rated show was renewed. And unlike Friday Night Lights, it’s not a critically acclaimed show but one that is considered by most poorly written and executed and needs to be totally retooled. I still think that Fringe stinks but I get why it was renewed – it had good ratings. I can’t see Fox moving Dollhouse to another night with such bad ratings and except for Ghost Whisperer scripted shows aren’t doing well on Friday nights. I also don’t see Fox moving one of their few successful scripted series to Friday as a lead-in to Dollhouse. I wonder if a new series will be it’s lead-in. I also wonder if they will continue having limited commercials on it.
I knew nothing of casting panels until Nick C’s comment. However, there was always something off putting about Torv’s acting on Fringe to me and Nick just confirmed it to me.
The other thing I found strange was that JJ Abrams shows(Lost, Alias, The old WB show with the title that starts with F, & etc.) usually have great female leads while Fringe has one I tolerate at most. Now I know why. The casting choice must have been mostly beyond Abrams control in this case.
Hot Diggity Dog! I just love this show! Fox you are awesome; kudos to cast, crew, writers and everyone else involved with the show especially Joss Whedon!
Firefly WAS great!
Dollhouse is OK, I guess, but I really love Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles. I have only watched TSCC on regular TV once. I watched the first season on DVD rented from Blockbuster, then the second season online. I loved the fact that it was on the FOX website because I could watch it on my schedule.
After I heard TSCC was due to be canceled I started a Facebook group to help save it and within the last two weeks 500 people have joined. There are fans from all over the world and they are all shocked that FOX is threatening to cancel the show, as am I.
I hope that the executives at FOX don’t think Dollhouse is an adequate substitute for Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles.
Jordansolid, I understand your disappointment. I watched T:SCC as well.
But what does DollHouse really have to do with Terminator? Honestly.
I was glad that Fox gave the show a second chance after the ratings were falling badly on Mondays. And when they did then I KNEW that Terminator needed to make the most of their new Friday slot. New people would be sampling it and it needed to establish itself with a strong episode. I was pleased to see Fox include Summer and Eliza hosting the episode and then we got… “The Good Wound”. Right then I knew that Terminator was done. That episode was exactly the opposite of what they needed to do in order to increase the ratings. I held out a bit of hope that they would up the action in the next week… and it didn’t happen.
While she of course is a great actress, who wants to see the Sarah Connor and nobody else show for 21 episodes? (Yes I am exaggerating but not by much).
Stop placing all of the responsibility on Fox. The Terminator producers didn’t even try to improve ratings and that’s a big part of why (every indication says that) this show will be canceled.
@Nick C: Presumably, since they will be making a big deal out of showing “Epitaph One” at Comic-Con in the days immediately preceding the DVD street date, they wouldn’t air it before then? That would be the end of July as it is. At that point, one would think it would make sense to just hold it until season two, no?
Actually, Carol, it’s the other way around, Fringe’s pilot was much better than Dollhouse’s 1st episode. It’s just that the episode that followed the pilot were worse than most stand alones of Dollhouse. But, it has since become a lot better. In fact, tv critics loved the season finale of Fringe, whereas they were disappointed by Dollhouse’s finale.
Also, it was abundantly clear that Dollhouse had higher ratings than TSCC. Just the facts, maam.
RSH, to say micro-expressions are part of psychology because a pyschologist “discovered,” them is hilarious. Micro-expressions are accepted by science as being legit. They aren’t based on culture but biology. So the look of disgust is the same in every culture. It’s part of human nature. There is no denying that gravity exists. There is also no denying that the micro facial expression of disgust exists. Most people notice these expressions (both facial and body). Have you never heard of body language? The study of micro-expressions is a legitimate science unlike psychology. These expressions are encoded into facial muscles. Scientists have recognized : Anger, Disgust, Fear, Happiness, Surprise, and Sadness as legitimate micro-expressions that are universal to mankind. Every human makes them and they all share the same traits. Some other micro-expressions like shame have yet to be recognized as true micro-expressions that aren’t culturally formed.
To call micro-expressions a “con game,” is like saying gravity doesn’t exist, the earth is 5,000 years old, etc. Torv has a tendency to show disgust at times when she shouldn’t. Why? I have no clue. I can assume a lot of things, but it’s a fact that she does it. The video evidence is there.
You understand what a panel is right? You understand that polls statistically work right? It’s polling. Panels are done on a large scale to provide statistical evidence. Since panels show Torv is the least liked and that the majority of panelists had a problem with her there is statistical evidence to show that the majority of people have a problem with her. You can say that FRINGE is a success all you want and thus it proves she is adequate. I argue that without her maybe the show would have 15M viewers like the MENTALIST (where the main actor is through the roof in panels) and be considered a huge hit.
My opinion isn’t a fact. It’s just shared by more people than your opinion. Why that bothers you I don’t really understand. You obviously have tastes that aren’t the norm. You watch TSCC, and very few people do. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t like what you like. However to say your opinion is more important (like you did) and to say you don’t believe that your opinion isn’t shared by the majority is absurd when you look at the data that was provided to you. You may think people don’t care about panels (and why should they) but you know what they are, and you know what they represent (the viewing public).
The One True B!X, I’ll try and find out Monday. It could be the premier for season 2. They really like it. I don’t understand why they don’t air it this Friday or next Friday.
Well, I watched a few eps of Fringe, and yes, was totally turned off by the female lead. Love Joshua Jackson, but I didn’t like Anna Torv at all.
Thanks for the interesting insight into panels. And wow, over 300 comments.
They ought to make John Noble the star of Fringe!
how did fringe get in on this conversation? This is supposed to be about Dollhouse.
I love Dollhouse and am glad its renewed. And on the subject of Fringe…it had one of the best finales i’ve ever seen. I loved every minute of it and the twist was pitch perfect.
The only way fringe fits into this conversation that both Fringe and Dollhouse grew from their pilots into awesome shows…I like fringe more personally though.
And where’s all this hate for Anna Torv coming from?
Nick: Give it up. Seriously.
RSH wrote: “I’m not experienced enough at watching Whedon shows to be able to guess. Do his shows normally start out as crap and then get really good in season two or not?”
Season 1 of Buffy was quite goofy/cheesy. It wasn’t until season 2 where things exploded into a brilliant series that lasted for 7 seasons. Season 1 was clearly Joss figuring out what he could in the world he created. So the same thing could very well apply to Dollhouse.
@Alex: Claire/Whiskey being able to hack Topher’s computer is quite easy to explain:
Part of Topher is in her. He wanted her to have computer skills, so he did that. It was probably overkill, as Claire herself said, but it’s how it is. And the “Claire hates Topher” thing comes from Topher hating himself. Yeah, on the surface he acts all cool and such, but deep down have might just realize the (im)morality of what he’s doing and he hates himself for it.
Fringefan: John Noble IS the star of Fringe! No question about that. This is a three lead show, just like TSCC was. But Noble is by far the more experienced and capable actor. Experience counts in acting.
I find Joshua engaging and cool but his role is considerably more “tamped down” than the other two leads. He does very well with it but he’s not the stand out actor – or role – on the show, Noble is. Hopefully that will change as his character assumes more importance in season 2 due to the original Peter’s death and possibly we learn more about his background before being recruited by Olivia.
Nick C, what wkind of rating in the 18-49 demo for Fox to give Dollhouse a full season pickup? Secondly, why isn’t CBS ordering a 2nd season of Eleventh Hour when it held 60 % of CSI’s audience? Their retention rates are better than Fringe after AI. Why doesn’t CBS give a 2nd season a shot? I mean it did better than Harper’s Island. Like Fringe, EH has held steadily in the last half hour. Why is it canceled if its getting higher ratings?
“The study of micro-expressions is a legitimate science unlike psychology. ”
Tom Cruise? Is that you?!
I just looked up micro-expressions on the Net. It would seem to be legitimate stuff compared to, say, lie detection using galvanic skin resistance.
BUT the articles I read explicitly point out that most people can’t perceive them, except possibly subconsciously, although people can be trained to see them.
Like I said, nobody cares. While some people may sense something wrong based on subconscious perception of micro-expressions, the INTERPRETATION of those micro-expressions by any given person is going to be based on their overall perception, conscious or subconscious, of the situation.
I found one company that studies movies and predicts profitability from this stuff, and they say it doesn’t work on horror movies, for instance, because it’s hard to interpret what a negative reaction actually means. Is it the negative reaction intended by the movie, or one which is in reaction to HOW the movie is showing the WHAT, in other words a problem with the movie itself?
In other words, it’s not an exact science. It may be more scientific than lie detectors, but it has the same issues of interpretation. And I do not trust that sort of thing.
Meanwhile, JJ Abrams explicitly has said Torv was a gut pick the same way as Jennifer Garner in Alias or his other actress picks. He’s perfectly happy with her.
So a bunch of people don’t like her. So what? I do and so does a lot of other people.
So forget about it. It’s irrelevant anyway, since she isn’t going anywhere.
Dan – I think scenarios one and three are possible, but two is practically impossible. The reason T:SCC had the mid season pick-up was reportedly because while the rating had tanked, Warner was willing to virtually give away the remaining episodes, believing it could make that work because they would help create interest in T4.
I don’t see any similar dynamic with Dollhouse. It’s either going to have respectable (for a science fiction show shown on a Friday) numbers by S2E13, or it’s not. If it’s not (and isn’t cheap enough to be moved to Saturday afternoons to compete with “Stargate 7″ on the WB) then there’s no more reason to give it a full season than there is to give it a full season and a third season.
On a separate note, where’s all this “The finale was bad” stuff coming from? Ballard agreed to help them find and save Echo in exchange for November’s release. I thought it was a believable choice a character who (a) was obsessed with Echo (b) was feeling guilt over “using” November and (c) had endangered the people he was trying to help and (d) was now exposed to the actual people who ran the Dollhouse, who are evidently not archetypes out of “Survivors on the run being chased by evil organization” TV show and were actually no threat to him despite what he’d been told previously, would make. The critics seem to have generally liked the way the season ended, which is why the show suddenly got unexpected renewal calls outside of the science fiction media.
I’m not having a problem with the ending. I actually don’t see any seriously problems with the show’s dynamic at this point, there’s an argument for focussing on one of the other characters, like Ballard, instead of Echo, but I think otherwise they have a lot of room to grow here.
Alex:
“He spends the entire season hunting down the Dollhouse and repeating his desire to bring it down and then spends the finale helping to keep them a secret and cover themselves. Then after spending the season stressing his desire to save Echo/Caroline from the Dollhouse he ends the season delivering her back to the Dollhouse”
His main goal was never to bring it to, he tried to convince himself of that, but he was smitten by Caroline and wanted to find her and “save” her. But he couldn’t save her at the end – who was Caroline? You had a body which had a different mental component, and you had the neural patter which once was Caroline in another body (and on a battered hard drive). He *MIGHT* have been able to abduct a body which wasn’t Caroline of personality, but then what? And he couldn’t force them to restore her – they’d just put him in the attic. If his goals hasn’t changed, his only option was to work for them. No problem there.
Richard Steven Hack:
“I’m not experienced enough at watching Whedon shows to be able to guess. Do his shows normally start out as crap and then get really good in season two or not?”
I’d say Firefly started very good and went up from there. Some people seem to feel Buffy started weak and became better, though I think that was in hindsight.
But as i said elsewhere, he seems to think of himself as an artist (my impression based on many interviews), and I think he doesn’t want to do mainstream, he doesn’t want to make something which is attractive to the masses, he want the masses to understand he’s a genius
But since he chooses to work in a popular medium he understands that certain compromises are required. Humor has often been a good weapon in that fight, his other shows are funny – and people tend to forgive high handed philosophizing if its funny.
Dollhouse is very much not funny, even if some lines might have been funny with other deliveries (I think the guy who plays Topher is totally unable to deliver Whedonesque lines in the proper manner) its a decidedly unfunny show.
So I can’t really see (or rather I don’t imagine) how Dollhouse would “improve” in the ratings stakes for season 2, I would imagine the he keeps the style and the ratings will keep sliding downwards. Though it’s been suggested Whedon hasn’t been as much involved in the day to day of this show, perhaps that explains some of the zigzag.
Nick C:
“While the majority dislike her or state being uncomfortable with her,”
Which has yet to be proven
“the ones who like her at around 30% seem to be practically infatuated.”
Ah, the gutter maneuver designed to dismiss opponents, when showing proof isn’t an option.
“your opinion is quite valid to the most important person: you). ”
Much like yours.
“You and RSH attacking people because their opinion is different than yours, is just silly.”
Funny, I thought that was you. I’ve just asked you to show your proof.
Sarah:
“And don’t even talk about good looking. GA is still one of the sexiest women on the planet at 40 years old. Back in her XF days, she was simply devastating.”
Tastes are very different. I never found GA the least bit sexy. When she’s herself she is a very funny and bubbly person, probably great to hang out with, but not sexy (Torv whom I don’t find sexy either comes across as a bit glacially reserved in interviews – perhaps she’s annoyed at the rumor Nick is spreading
WTF. -_- TSCC fans are livid.
I’ve never heard of micro-expressions before but I do know what I’d called being able to act in layers, what I call the ability to show more than 1 emotion at the same time. It’s what distinguishes a great actor from one that is mediocre and 1-note. A bad actor can’t even show 1 emotion well. I consider Anna Torv mediocre and 1-note at best. She’s stunning physically and I get that there are those who like her as an actress. But technically in my opinion she’s not very good and was a horrible casting choice for Fringe since it was a lead role.
There are actors I enjoy watching that I don’t consider more than mediocre actors technically and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. There are actors like Mary McDonnell who I enjoy watching and I also consider a great actor.
I loved Eleventh Hour and am sad to hear that it’s been cancelled. I consider it to have been like The X-Files whereas Fringe I considered to have little in common in quality with the X-Files. Eleventh Hour had good writing, good casting, good acting, and good production values and it truly was very similar to The X-Files concept. However, it just didn’t attract the viewers needed to keep it on the air.
I like Joshua Jackson as an actor but I don’t think that he was a good casting choice on Fringe. Mark Valley seemed a way better fit and actually had chemistry with Anna Torv. John Noble, in my opinion, is the only reason why Fringe wasn’t a huge flop. I hadn’t seen him before but he’s an excellent actor and I believe the key reason that Fringe is still on the air. I hope that they give him a huge bonus because he really deserves it.
J.J. Abrams has devoted fans just like Joss Whedon does only Abrams has more of them and has had mainstream successes. Whedon’s only successes were on minor networks.
It’s always surprising to me what shows become popular and which don’t. It often doesn’t have anything to do with the acting ability of the stars on it, the quality of the writing, or the production values. TV it seems is a flukey industry. You can have bad actors, bad writers and people may love a show or you can good actors, good writers and for whatever reason it just doesn’t click with the viewers. Sometimes you get a show that becomes popular that has great actors, great writing & production values but that in my opinion is rare.
Since TV is a business, the profitability of the show is typically the primary consideration. It seems that the industry is changing and whereas before a show typically couldn’t get syndication rights unless it had at least I believe 88 episodes (preferrably 100) with the sale of DVDs it seems that shows that don’t even last 1 season are able to get extra revenue and are also being purchased to be aired on cable networks – something that never would have happened years ago. I think the only TV shows that had episode appear on VHS tapes were The X-Files, Buffy, and Star Trek franchises – but now it seems every series will be going to DVD usually before 6 months to 1 year after the season has ended.
I’m wondering if one reason that the networks were sometimes willing to take more of a chance on shows used to be that unless they had enough episodes for syndication rights that they typically didn’t make a profit on them. They also used to air repeats of episodes during the viewing season and it now seems that viewers want only 1st run episodes all the time and look down on repeats.
I would expect in an effort to keep down costs that more and more TV series are “out sourced” to other countries. Vancouver now seems to film a huge percentage of TV shows aired in the U.S. And Fox’s new Mental show that should start airing soon was filmed in South America as a cost cutting measure.
Eleventh Hour has been cancelled? I thought it was still on the bubble.
Tomorrow TSCC fans will know. There will probably be NO word on it at all which means the worst.
On the Dollhouse finale
Jon C you’re complaint that I didn’t pay attention to the show is ironic given that you clearly didn’t pay attention to what I wrote, my problem wasn’t with Whiskey/Saunders being able to hack into Topher’s computer but that she was able to do it the week after we were told Alpha couldn’t. The same Alpha who perfected a remote wipe (something Topher told us was impossible) and the same Alpha who built his own chair to programme Echo with all her imprints and the same Alpha who we’ve been told is a genius throughout the season. Its lazy changing the facts to fit the scenario writing that has prolific in Heroes the past two seasons. One week they wanted Alpha to meet Saunders so they made it impossible to hack into Topher’s computer, the following they needed Saunders to hack into Topher’s computer so they threw in a useless ’I have computer skills line’.
The fact that fans are now writing themselves in circles to explain this away – ‘Topher put part of himself in he and he hates himself that’s why he wants her to’ is particularly impressive though. Especially given that they not to subtly suggested that the reason Topher expected Saunders to hate him is because he blames himself for what happened to her.
In regards to Ballard’s motivations like I said had they spent anytime during the season establishing and creating any of these characters and their motivations then his actions during the finale would have been understandable the problem is they didn’t. Everyone and everything is so paper thin and basic that everything they do outside their basic and paper thin existence makes no sense. You can’t build an entire season on someone hunting down the Dollhouse to bring it down and save Echo only to then end that season with that same character helping to cover up the Dollhouse and delivering Echo back to them. It makes zero sense and because you haven’t developed fully formed characters you don’t have in built explanations for it.
On the subject of panels, I sit in the camp that casting is ultimately the only area where you should put any major stock in their predictive abilities because it tends to be the only area where they’re right almost all the time. If someone doesn’t test well then the vast majority of the time the audience at large doesn’t like them either. Panels are incredibly hit and miss bigger picture in terms of a shows success etc. because there’s so many other factors that go hand-in-hand with that but when it comes to the cast and characters they’re usually very reliable. Of course the perceptions of an actor or character can change over time and whether Anna Torv would score as low in panels now I don’t know and whether she would score as low with people who have watched every week is another issue.
Alex:
I agree that the storyline history rewrites on the Dollhouse finale was pretty bad just like what they keep doing on Heroes. I consider it very poor planning and writing. I thought that good writers were supposed to have a “Bible” of where they planned the storyline to go for season. I also agree that while rewrites of history may sometime be necessary, it goes a long way if the writers can actually develop into the storyline a good reason of why a character does a 180 with their actions. With the finale on Dollhouse, I just don’t get the entire Ballard character since his only point before was that he was against the Dollhouse and fighting against it and now he’s no better than any of the others that are part of it and the writers didn’t give me any reason to think otherwise.
I’m not sure what is considered a panel. Is it only industry professionals or are members of the public invited?
I attended years ago a session where they invited people from the public for free (with some free prizes as some inducement) to view prospective pilot shows as well as the commercials that went with it in Baltimore, MD. In my case, it was 2 sitcoms that were pretty bad and never made it to the air. They questioned us after we viewed it at that location and then had someone call us on the phone 1 week later to question us more about our impressions of the shows (and the commercials). I got some later invites for others but I never attended anymore.
To me casting is one of those things that is really tricky and takes a great talent to be able to do it affectively since they’re not deciding necessarily who is a better actor but who fits a particular role the best and who they believe the audience will like best in the role and for lead roles be able to carry the show. There’s also what is called the “IT Factor” where some actors are just more watchable and have more screen presence than others even though their acting skills may be very limited. Over the years it seems to me that some series have had excellent casting directors who seem to excel in not just the casting of the regular characters but the guest star roles and the background actors and extras.
Re Paul Ballard, you might wanna see episodes 9 and 10 again (“A Spy in The House of Love”). His descent from hunting FBI-anti hero to collaborator was prepared carefully. In episode 10 he gives in to his desire to uncover the Dollhouse, even if it means to sleep with an Active, even if it means to become a client, something he admits by the end of the episode explicitly. His actions “Omega” didn’t come out of the blue. This darkness inside of him, the one that made him become a contractor for the Dollhouse, has been growing since “Man in the Street”, since he lost his job. And it has been depicted as such. At least for me.
That sounds like a panel, Carol. I’m not sure how long ago you participated in one, but I believe today panels are done with those dials like CNN used during the debates to see how “undecideds” reacted to the candidates.
FringeFan, about Dollhouse and TSCC ratings.
Dollhouse had slightly better ratings than TSCC because:
1. Dollhouse had a sci-fi lead-in, TSCC, which meant TSCC fans stayed to watch Dollhouse.
2. TSCC was competing with Ghostwhisperer, the highest rated show of the night, while Dollhouse was not.
In the second last episode, TSCC matched Dollhouse’s ratings and overtook Dollhouse in the season finale. TSCC also had constantly higher DVR and online viewership rates. Once Prison Break, a well established show of 4 seasons, took the place of TSCC as the Dollhouse lead-in, both shows could not measure up to TSCC’s ratings. In fact, PB beat Dollhouse in viewers several times and Dollhouse reached a series low in its finale!! Come on now, TSCC vs. Dollhouse is no contest.
‘Topher put part of himself in he and he hates himself that’s why he wants her to’
I *never* said Topher wants Claire to hate him. You say we should pay attention to what you’ve actually written and yet you clearly didn’t pay attention to what I wrote, and instead put words im my mouth. Claire only hates Topher as a side-effect of having part of his personality in her, not because Topher specifically programmed this hate.
When I posted this link to the YouTube video of Thomas Dekker talking about TSCC and the fan support for its renewal there was just over 10,000 views. Since last night the views have topped 15,000. I’m sure a lot of that traffic came from people on here. Must be loads of people reading these comments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7B2IYR-HCo
“In episode 10 he gives in to his desire to uncover the Dollhouse, even if it means to sleep with an Active,”
Which perfectly explains why he helped to hide the Dollhouse, clean up their mess, return Echo to them and then agree to work for them how? His entire motivation throughout this season has been on bringing down the Dollhouse and saving Echo, at no point during this season did they set up any reasoning behind why when he was presented with countless chances to do all of that during the finale he didn’t.
Like I’ve repeatedly said the writing has been so paper thin and poor during Dollhouse that there simply isn’t a character base there for complex character motivations.
And Gusar you completely missed the point I was ridiculing, it wasn’t about why he wanted or expected Saunders to hate him but the idea that fans have from the line ‘you gave me computer skills’ decided that Topher implanted his own personality into Saunders. Of course you’re also ignoring Saunders saying that she didn’t hate Topher whilst making this leap but whatever works for you.
Alex, we don’t know why Ballard did what he did. Period. I’m sure at the beginning of season 2 we’ll start to understand his decisions. However he did try and bring the Dollhouse down. He had the FBI outside the building and when he told them it was the dollhouse they turned around and left! At that point he had to realize it was just him vs the dollhouse. So what will he do to bring it down? It’s easier to burn a house down from the inside than the outside. I’m sure we’ll learn that was his motivation for what ever deal he made. We still don’t know what kind of deal he made. None. We just know part of the outcome was one active being set free before her term was up.
Kermonk, I have no reason to make up panels. I provide info here that has been proven again and again. The panels are very much real. How do you propose I prove them? You know I can’t? That’s your defense? I’m not stating my opinion is more important. I stated that the majority of panelists (which represent over all viewers) disliked her in some way.
And Gusar you completely missed the point I was ridiculing, it wasn’t about why he wanted or expected Saunders to hate him but the idea that fans have from the line ‘you gave me computer skills’ decided that Topher implanted his own personality into Saunders.
And what you’ve missed, which puzzles me because you were aware of it in your previous posts, is this: Claire doesn’t only have “computer skills”, she has skills good enough to hack into Topher’s computer, something not even Alpha could do. That she has those specific special skills because part of Topher is in her is in no way fanwanking, it very much fits the realm of the show.
But whatever, you seem to be determined to discredit the show’s writing at any cost, so you’ll find something to pick about no matter how good the explanations given to you are. You’ll even ignore what you’ve previously said yourself, as I pointed out above.
Also, Nick C is spot on: Ballard saw that bringing down the Dollhouse won’t be easy. So he figures a good way would be to learn as much as possible about it – and there ain’t no better way to do so than being on the inside. As a plus, he also gets to fulfill his fantasy – he gets to protect his precious Caroline on a regular basis.
Gusar it really is fanwanking to make the leap from ‘computer skills’ to ‘OMG Topher implanted himself in her’ because its fans stretching to explain a really incredibly bad piece of writing. To one week have Alpha who created a way to remote wipe Dolls on top of building his own chair to implant/wipe Dolls be unable to hack into Topher’s computer and then the next week have someone else do it in the blink of an eye is just bad writing and ‘I have computer skills’ doesn’t explain it. You’re telling me Alpha didn’t have computer skills? What he built that chair through magic? And worked out how to remote wipe the same way?
I’d go onto say that it would be out of character for Topher to implant himself in Whiskey but given Topher has no consistent character I can’t, he changes from week to week depending on how he’s needed to advance the plot – another page ripped from the Heroes playbook for the record.
And I also love the way people are trying to twist Ballard’s motivations – ‘he told the FBI’ is BS and you know it. That was set up and played out as a way for him to get rid of the FBI squad so he could go and hunt down Echo, right down to him smiling up at the security camera after the FBI left. That was him helping to cover up for the Dollhouse, the same Dollhouse he spent the entire season trying to expose and bring down.
You can’t define an entire character by one mission and then have him go completely against that mission repeatedly with no explanation, its just bad lazy writing. Like I’ve said a good three times now, the characters are so paper thin that the means for complex motivations don’t exist. Everyone has been so simple (and ever changing) that trying to play off some kind of double play ending doesn’t work.
Well, it’s a bit circular to say that “the characters are so paper thin that the means for complex motivations don’t exist” and at the same time claim that what some people recognized as an actual complexity of motivations simply isn’t one because the characters are so thin.
But, hey, I don’t think anybody can be convinced of each other’s point here, so nevermind. If it didn’t do it for you, it didn’t. Nothing wrong about that.
‘I have computer skills’ doesn’t explain it.
No, but “she has those specific special skills” (words from my previous post), *does* explain it. Again you did what you accused others of doing – you didn’t pay attention to what was actually written.
Nick C – Ballard smiled at the camera after the FBI disbelieved him about the Dollhouse, he obviously intended to be disbelieved.
I saw that whole episode as Ballard temporarily working with the Dollhouse for two very good reasons: Caroline was kidnapped by Alpha (and it was his fault!) and feeling guilt over November and seeing an opportunity to set that right. I also think Ballard may feel a little differently about the Dollhouse having been inside it and having met the people who run it.
I’m confuzzled that it’s all considered bad writing or some kind of out-of-character thing by Ballard. It all made sense to me.
Alex, two major points: Saunders was obviously given the skill set to hack the system. I think it had more to do with Topher wanting her to find out than him putting himself in her (although that might be his goal *cough*). He wasn’t shocked. I think he felt guilty about what happened to her. Which does match what little we’ve found out about the character. That isn’t sloppy writing at all. To compare it to HEROES is blasphemy. I’ve dealt with a lot of bad writing, but the last few episodes of DOLLHOUSE haven’t been bad, they’ve been puzzling. It will likely clear up later.
Second point: Ballard was sent out to get rid of the FBI. How did he do it? That explains much of his motivation. He told them the truth. What did they do? They turned around and left thinking it was a prank. They don’t trust him, they don’t believe in the dollhouse. He has no chance of getting help from the system. He has to bring dollhouse down from the inside. The smiling proves my point. He did get rid of them, but he did it with the truth. It was a win-win situation for him. If the FBI believed him and raided the building: He wins! If they turn their back on him, the dollhouse people think he got them to leave while he learns just who is on his side (just himself and whomever is in the dollhouse sending him messages).
I assumed Topher made Whiskey hate him to deal with his guilt, simple as that. Ballard has more unexplained bits, as do most of them, but I don’t see them as thin or inconsistent characters, we just haven’t seen enough of them yet. Roll on season 2!
I guess for me any rootability Paul Ballard had as a character is now totally gone and that’s on the writing. He’s just as sleazy to me as everyone else at the Dollhouse because of the writing in episodes 9 and 10. He purposely confronted the police in a way in the finale that would send them away from the Dollhouse. All he had to do to have it busted was to have just walked by the guy and keep his mouth shut. He could have saved all of the Dolls in the Dollhouse but instead he became one of them and had just 1 Doll released.
And since Alpha is supposed to be a psychopathic murderer, by protecting the Dollhouse, everyone who is murdered after that by Alpha is on him since he could have stopped him at that time. If the Dollhouse was busted a nationwide manhunt could have possibly captured Alpha, the public could have been put on alert. Instead, Ballard goes along with letting a psychopath murderer go his merry way and continue killing.
For me at least, I need to have some characters on a show that are rootworthy and Dollhouse really doesn’t have many at all. I don’t get why Whedon didn’t fashion it somewhat like La Femme Nikita. If he had and the dolls were used to fight terrorists or protect humanity in some way and if they had been murderers who would have been executed but were given a second chance, then to me it would have made the show more palatable. Instead, most of the dolls are used essentially as prostitutes for money so that their clients could amuse themselves. It wasn’t like a spy sleeping with the enemy to get vital information for their country, but just prostitution. Even the head of the local Dollhouse, DeWitt, uses them herself as hookers.
One huge area that the writers totally neglected was about the technology that stored people’s memories, how it worked and how they acquired these different personalities. Did people voluntarily give up their personalities for money or did they steal them from them when they were dying?
The most glaring bit of bad writing though for me is that it seems the clients all have no trouble finding where the dollhouse is or at least contacting it but the cops clueless about it.
I agree with Carol that there are gaping holes in the way the Dollhouse is presented, the client access being one of them. However, we don’t know HOW the clients are brought it – they could be brought in a car with sealed covered windows, scanned for tracking devices before they’re picked up, etc. It’s just none of that it covered in the scripts – which is something I disliked about TSCC.
Also, Carol is right that they’ve never explained where they get the enormous variety of personality scans that allow them to imprint so many niche skills – even a PAIR of niche personalities like the bounty hunters Dichen and Miracle played in the finale who obviously knew each other.
It only takes a few lines of dialog to cover up plot holes like that. Writers who don’t do it are being sloppy.
It IS true that ninety percent of the audience won’t notice those holes, but still as a professional one should cover them.
Dollhouse DOES have a LOT of problems even if I cut it more slack than I did TSCC. If I do cut it more slack, I’m not sure I do, actually – well, after the horrible TSCC finale I guess I do cut Dollhouse more slack.
To me both of this season finales of Dollhouse & TSCC were badly written and were huge minus to the shows. However, I thought the first season of TSCC ended on a great note with a real cliffhanger. It’s the 2nd season of TSCC that I had huge problems with. I don’t know why but it seems that many writers seem unable to write the 2nd season of a show as well as the first. TSCC had good viewership in its first season which told me viewers liked the format of the show, the writing, and the characters as it was presented to them.
There have been shows that improved a lot after their first season in my opinion, Star Trek: TNG being one of them. But in that case from what I read that was due to removing Gene Roddenberry’s influence on the show at the end of its 2nd season from the rest of the series, allowing the show to really shine.
Heroes and Lost both had disastrous 2nd seasons that drove away viewers and were written very differently from their 1st season. They also both brought on a bunch of newbie characters that the viewers didn’t care about. I don’t get why when a series is successful the writers in its 2nd season start messing with the formula and changing the things that viewers liked about it. If it’s not broke, don’t fix it.
In a series such as Dollhouse which had major problems with it and isn’t successful – not with its bad ratings, then it’s 2nd season needs to be very different from its first season. I just don’t have much confidence that Joss Whedon is able and is willing to dramatically change the series and retool it.
And it’s also much harder to get back viewers who have tuned out than keep those who are watching regularly. In its 2nd season, Dollhouse has to somehow either get new viewers to watch it or get viewers who tuned out to tune back in. TSCC in its 2nd season just had to hold the interest of those who had watched the 1st season, which should have been relatively easy in comparison and they failed miserably.
As far as the character of Alpha goes which seems to be a pivotal part of Dollhouse, Alan Tudyk is starring in the remake of V: The Series. It’ll be airing on ABC and has been picked up for 6 episodes so I don’t see him returning to Dollhouse since that airs on a different network. I don’t know where that leaves Dollhouse but in the finale it seemed like the entire focus of the show would now revolve around chasing down Alpha. And if the actor who played Alpha isn’t available, I have no clue what they’ll do.
Carol, there are 20 Dollhouses around the world. You think the FBI busting one of them would change anything? That’s what it’s about – things are bigger and more complicated than you (and Ballard himself at the beginning) think. Busting that one house would not save the dolls.
There’s also something else you’re forgetting – the thing Ballard was urged to do every time he got a message from inside the Dollhouse – he was urged to figure out the true purpose of the Dollhouse. He can’t do that if the house gets busted.
Carol said, “And it’s also much harder to get back viewers who have tuned out than keep those who are watching regularly. In its 2nd season, Dollhouse has to somehow either get new viewers to watch it or get viewers who tuned out to tune back in. TSCC in its 2nd season just had to hold the interest of those who had watched the 1st season, which should have been relatively easy in comparison and they failed miserably.”
Well, Carol you might be right and you might be wrong. If word of mouth spreads from Comic-Con that season 2’s premiere episode is good or great, then people might actually tune in just based on the publicity factor coming out of Comic-Con. If the publicity coming out of this years Comic-Con is that the episode stinks, well then the shows ratings will sink even further. But, if word of mouth is positive, Dollhouse might get the back 9 order and maybe a 3rd season.
I’m also looking forward to True Blood’s 2nd season. Any word, Nick C., from inside HBO on how season 2 is doing compared to season 1? Is it better? Worse?
I mean True Blood was a hit for HBO in its 1st season.
Looking at twitter some folks definitely started to watch Season One after it was renewed. I don’t quite understand that mindset (only watching a show if it doesn’t get canceled), but it happens. If summer could lead to people giving it a try because they hear around every corner that Season One turned out to be quite awesome in the end.
I find this to be incredibly irritating. Dollhouse is not a very good show, yet the story is just intriguing enough to keep me watching. I was totally okay with letting this one die, but now I’m going to HAVE to keep watching it. Oh well, with an extra 13 episodes, maybe I’ll start to actually care about some of the characters…or even remember their names.
Shane you don’t HAVE to do anything. If you think it’s not a very good show then don’t watch it. I’m amazed that in an era when people don’t have to watch, read or listen to anything they don’t want to, there are those who still go in search for things that bring them no joy. If you continue to watch Dollhouse it means that something in you wants too.
Carol, RSH – the Dollhouse is underground. Dewitt’s office is several floors above the ground. I’ve only ever seen the clients in Dewitt’s office or outside.
It’s fairly obvious there’s a separation between the office and the Dollhouse, and the office is something you can take clients to.
As far as making it a clone of La Femme Nikita, that’s how it started, and that’s not what’s going to happen because La Femme Nikita’s already been made. At the heart of Dollhouse is an exploration of the implications of a mind programming technology. The Dollhouse itself is a MacGuffin, which is probably why the characters who run it aren’t anything like as evil as Dollhouse’s detractors want them to be.
Dollhouse isn’t really about the explorations of the mind as much as it seems to be about “date rape” or being raped while drugged. That seems to occur in almost every episode but it gets glossed over by the show. Because of that I don’t see Dollhouse ever getting a wide appeal among women and I believe that’s a huge reason that the ratings continue to decline. Several of the episodes were solely about the dolls being used as nothing more than high priced prostitutes. The advertisements for Dollhouse seem to be designed to mainly appeal to men.
Instead of focussing on larger issues, the writers have ignored them. They could have clients pay huge amounts to remain alive after death by having their memories imprinted on Dolls and not just the short term whodunit they did in one episode. To me it would be more believable that people would pay huge amounts of money to keep a relative alive, especially if they were given a young body, than just to have a high priced prostitute. I consider pimps evil so the people who run the Dollhouse I consider the lowest type of scum. Add to that their Dolls have killed quite a few innocent people due solely to their actions and not for a greater cause but solely for greed.
Carol, so you watched, like, two episodes, right?
Dollhouse sucks, only watched it to support SCC; but now there is no reason. It is off the DVR.