“We’re going to run all the episodes,” said Fox scheduling chief Preston Beckman. “We’re not saying we’re happy with those numbers, or accept them, but we don’t have to overreact. During [November] sweeps we might have to jack up the numbers a little [with other programming], but we plan on completing the order for this show.”
As for ordering additional episodes, or a third season, Fox says they will make that decision after the current run.
Lots more information where that came from at The Live Feed.
Cue JBF
YES!!!!!!!
i love this show, and u must admit, what is it about this show that so many internet site are constantly talkin about this show? its smart and they would be smart to keep it.
“Dollhouse canceled, won’t be renewed” — better headline
I guess all the hand-wringing on the internet has echoed back to Fox headquarters.
Although we shouldn’t be that surprised they will fill the order, even with little prospect of DVD sales (though that may be the very reason they are promising they will all air) – the cost of filming episodes 9-13, even if winter filler, is less than two Lie To Mes.
Robert, I’m *saving* that one!
Well that will shut people up for a little bit now. Fox is being very good/lenient to this show.
it’s by Joss Whedon, Ryan. if the whole Firefly thing hadn’t happened then this fight to keep Dollhouse alive wouldn’t be nearly half as strong.
The worst show on TV!
they have a lot faith in the show
“Dollhouse to be burned off outside of sweeps”
work with me here!
I’m hoping for a third season of Dollhouse!!! I love the show. It’s very well written and it’s not some stupid reality TV crap….I’m sick and tired of reality shows. This along with the Office and Family Guy are the few shows that I still watch on TV.
So in other words, it’ll probably air this & next Friday – take a pause in November – and then burn off the rest in December/January.
And Fox can finally end this nightmare once and for all…
TVBTN translator tool. Exec Speak to English.
“We’re going to run all the episodes,” said Fox scheduling chief Preston Beckman.
We will dump this garbage in mid summer! You’ll get the “full run” then, suckers!
“We’re not saying we’re happy with those numbers, or accept them, but we don’t have to overreact.”
We should have pulled the plug in the spring…damn you, Joss! Damn you, Firefly!
“During [November] sweeps we might have to jack up the numbers a little [with other programming], but we plan on completing the order for this show.”
You’ve seen the last episode until mid-July, suck it up! “The Cube” and “First Grader” are ready to go!
“As for ordering additional episodes, or a third season, Fox says they will make that decision after the current run.”
Holding your breath could be hazardous to your health!
Yay?
So in other words, it’ll probably air this & next Friday – take a pause in November – and then burn off the rest in December/January.
This Friday is baseball.
Well, hopefully they’ll give fans closure. I’m not a fan of the show, but I hate it when networks axe a show leaving a major cliff hanger unsolved.
what about “dollhouse to return this summer after a short break for november sweeps” ?
W
O
O
-
H
O
O
!
Fischi: it kills the idea of an 8 episode marathon on Christmas Day, but otherwise it works for me. I would like to see a very Dollhouse Christmas so JBF will have a happy holidays.
well aintitcool.com already has a story posted with a quote from Whedon that says that there will be closure in the 13th episode with some doors open just in case. To me that reads as we know we are cancelled but if there is a miracle we are prepared.
“We’re not saying we’re happy with those numbers, or accept them, but we don’t have to overreact.
I love this line it’s somewhat humorous. Networks overreact all the time when it comes to numbers sometimes even canceling shows after one or 2 episodes air Fox included and now Fox is saying they don’t want to overreact to the numbers.
coming summer 2010 dollhouse the final episodes…hahaha
But, Robert, 8 episodes on Christmas would only be 11 episodes. Will they stick the last two on New Years?
I always knew that FOX would run all 13 episodes (They renewed the series with low ratings, so airing out all episodes will prove to themselves that they didnt regret the renewal). Its likely FOX will double up on episodes come December.
September 25
October 2
October 9
October 23
October 30
November 6
November 13
November 20
November 27
December 4
December 11
December 18
December 18
By running all of Dollhouse in this slot, its unclear where Glee repeats could air.
Dan, they said that they will not be airing Dollhouse during November sweeps.
Julia, 3 already have aired, one on the 23, one on the 30th gets it to five, plus 8 on XMAS = 13.
It’s not any more likely than Bill’s dream of a ‘Til Death Marathon last July 4th, but for JBF’s sake I hope it happens!
Edit: 10/30 is already November Sweeps..so 9 on XMAS
Didn’t Nick C. say that FOX execs were in the process of giving DH a full season?
“Dollhouse canceled, won’t be renewed” — better headline
Think of the haters though, while they whine and complain endlessly regarding this show, what would they do without it?
Good for the fans, the writers should at least prepare to write a series finale for the show since the chances of the third season is very bleak. Maybe FOX will have back to back episodes of Dollhouse kinda like how they ended the run of (my favorite) Arrested Development.
AO: they’ll obsess on Castle, Three Rivers, Chuck, whatever ABC Family is airing instead of Kyle XY, whatever TV Land is airing besides Gunsmoke and Bonanza, etc.
Oh happy day! In Joss I have trusted, and it has paid off! Eight months ago, I declared that DVR usage would help the show, and it has! (In fact, I hasten to add that I said so in my VERY FRST POST ever here! Yay me!) Is it a coincidence that they would announce the show would air all of its 13 episodes the same day they learned of the awesome DVR growth?! No, no it is not a coincidence!
I just can’t IMAGINE going for weeks without seeing an episode of Dollhouse! Is it really possible they might not air the show in November?! That’s just crazy! I do think the show could come back even stronger than ever before if new episodes aired throughout December! I really think that November sweeps are passe, and how a show performs during December should be what matters the most!
I really don’t think, though, that FOX would ever make the faithful Joss-lovers wait til summer for the episodes! That would be, like, the worst thing ever! When you have something this huge and amazing and life-changing, it is your duty to share it with the world ASAP! I really think FOX is on the same page as me!
“As for ordering additional episodes, or a third season, Fox says they will make that decision after the current run.” Why aren’t they ordering additional episodes now? Mere days ago, a certain someone here said the network was very close to picking up the back 9! And that certain someone is never, ever wrong! And they wouldn’t dare wait til they’ve aired all 13 episodes to pick up the back 9, would they?! Because as awesome as Joss is (so awesome!) even he can’t make episodes super-duper-quick. Unless…work with me here…maybe they’re setting the stage for a live episode of Dollhouse! They could get that out really quick the week after episode 13! And I bet filming everything live would help save money! That would be beyond awesome!
Watch a rerun of Dollhouse on the awesome Hulu this week! Avoid the smelly, disgusting, rancid, dim-witted, and brain-dead show called “baseball” that’s airing on FOX this Friday!
For some reason I had it in my head that the 23rd would be the third not the fourth. Must remember how to count!
Andrea, Nick C. was clearly joking. He was talking about the increased competition on Friday and such. There’s no way he was serious. At least I hope not.
@ Robert,
I’m sure that they would, maybe they’d spend a bit more time on the CW too.
But Dollhouse really does seem special for them. They don’t attack Brothers or ‘Til Death to the same extent and those are on the same channel on the same night with even worse ratings.
No, Fox’s extending Dollhouse is great for everyone: The fans, the anti-fans and I’m guessing that it will mean good things for the number of people commenting here too! So win-win-win!
YESS!!! This is good news.
Interesting…
with how well fox has been doing this season they should have enough money to order 3 more seasons of Dollhouse!
AO, certainly for us “always on the verge of cancellation but never actually canceled” would be optimal. In some alternate universe where it actually goes down like that, TVbytheNumbers is a top 100 site!
DH has had far more luck than it deserves.
I guess FOX could afford the low rated Friday night since their line up all week is solid (even Saturdays!) kinda like how patient CBS is with their Wednesday sitcoms last year.
Dollhouse for the Back 9!
&
TVBN.com for the Top 100!!
It has a certain ring.
Wow, that chris guy was just wrong.
Meanwhile, with Dollhouse being able to air all 13 Episodes, the list of upcoming guest-stars that might bring in a few new fans will lengthen. We’ll be able to see the full effects of Summer Glau & Ray Wise’s appearances.
I’m really hoping that when Felicia Day appears then that will bring in some new viewers.
Ah, life is filled with hope, joy and a myriad of possibilities!
buffywrestling, Chris said that if Dollhouse increased, it would stay on the air (at least for Oct 23rd). It increased, so it stays on the air. How was he wrong?
Julia – they said they might have to air other programming in place of Dollhouse, but your probably right. I could see Glee repeats airing in the slots. Anyway if they pull Dollhouse for sweeps, since they have Dollhouse scheduled for October 30 and sweeps lasts from October 29-November 25 this could be the likely schedule then
5 have already been scheduled to air on these dates
September 25 (already aired)
October 2 (already aired)
October 9 (already aired)
October 23
October 30
Likely dates for remaining eps
November 27
December 4
December 11 (possibly double episodes)
December 18 (likely double episodes)
December 25*
January 1 (likely double episodes)
January 8 (likely double episodes)
I doubt FOX will air new eps on Xmas (sorry Robert haha) but they are very likely to double up in December should FOX move Brothers and Til Death to sundays at 7. I could see Dollhouse airing on January 1 or 8 if not just for the final episodes. I didnt expect Dollhouse to last until January, but being pulled for sweeps will likely push the series back. FOX is doing what I had hoped for, just airing the series out and moving on to something else. As for Til Death and Brothers, FOX sees the low numbers and it seems they are willing to give Brothers a second chance with Til Death already given a full year.
And as for ordering additional episodes or a third season, by FOX saying they will wait until later just delays the inevitable.
While Dollhouse is nowhere near as good as Firefly, it’s still one of the best shows on air right now. It’s not for everyone – hell, it probably isn’t for most people – but I simply don’t get the amount of satisfaction some people get from “sticking it to the fans”. Saying how it’s “one of the worst shows on TV” only shows how much you (don’t) know about television in general.
So what if renewal went against the “rules”? So what if the writers and actors went into S2 prepared for it to be only 13 more episodes? So what if that’s completely okay with everyone and FOX, for once, understands? They are not losing money here to satisfy “Whedon fanatics”, they’re just not making a lot (or any, if you like) and by god if that helps them lose the bad guy image – so be it.
I just want to see a good ending, not because I’m a fanatic or masochistic – I genuinely like it and enjoy every minute of it, so get off the hate wagon and find something useful to do for a change.
Whats JBF?
Julia if you read the interview Whedon said he was told that they would run the 13 after the first numbers appeared. Maybe chris can explain how that coinsides with this meeting of “increase or else”?
buffywrestling, perhaps Whedon left out the message that after the second episode, Fox wasn’t so sure about that promise?
@ Dan,
Regarding Brothers, someone who seems to work for Fox at another site said that they are quietly showing it on both Fridays and Sundays in order to burn off the 13 Episodes that they committed to asap, at which point it will not be renewed or extended.
As far as I can tell his info has always been legitimate, so for me it’s something that I’m keeping in mind when thinking about Brothers. Though of course their plans could change or he could be mistaken.
Oh c`mon. Are you fanwanking Whedon’s comments to the press?? Expected more from you Julia.
Um, what? You believe anything that comes out of any exec’s mouth? How is me questioning whether he’s telling the full truth fanwanking?
“Fox: “We’re going to run all the episodes” of Dollhouse”
That’s just messed up and rude.
AO,
I honestly don’t think it’s Dollhouse particularly that has the “haters” so energized; nor is it a dislike for Whedon himself or his work. I think it’s the Whedon fans and their inability to see Whedon’s work with any kind of reasonable perspective that brings out the “hate”. Or rather, I think it’s a certain insufferable subset of Whedon’s fans which JBF does such an excellent job poking fun at. Or look at it this way: why do people treat obsessed Trekkies with such disdain? Because, like the subset of Whedon’s fans I’m referring to, those Trekkies just can’t be rational about the work, and their near-religious fervor has rightly invited ridicule for decades. I enjoy Star Trek but I don’t wear Spock ears. Whedonites are essentially Trekkies and Trekkies often invite ridicule.
Dollhouse isn’t a work of staggering genius, it isn’t “the most intellectual show in the history of television” as a recent *astoundingly* myopic opinion piece bafflingly tried to assert. It’s a sci-fi action show with Eliza Dushku running around in various sexy outfits while characters we can’t really connect with because of structural problems inherent in the premise have conversations about the meaning of identity and consent. I would call the show ambitious in that respect, certainly, but I don’t think it has managed to effectively realize the potential of its mind-bending premise, not even close. I also think it tries to have its cake and eat it too re: exploitation. Asserting that exploitation is bad and then flaunting Dushku’s body while claiming that they’re just trying to make the audience admit their own complicity in the exploitiveness of the show is merely a convenient and facile dodge on the part of the producers, one of whom posed in Maxim magazine in her underwear to publiize her show about not exploiting people. I don’t think you need to be particularly intelligent to appreciate Dollhouse, nor do I think that people have tuned out in droves because they are “not intelligent enough to get it.” I think the premise is offputting, and offensive to many people; a lot of the characters are, by design, ciphers; Echo is too boring to care about, Ballard is just creepy and/or boring, and Caroline is too much of a naive twit to root for–she signed up to be a brainwashed prostitite slave while somehow being dumb enough to think that the Dollhouse will just let her go in five years, does she not understand the concept of a legal contract? That it has to be *legal*? She got herself into this and is apparently none too smart, so why should I root for her? And finally the writing is often simply not that engaging and the missions don’t always hold my interest. Those are plenty of reasons for people to not be watching and none of them say anything whatsoever about anyone’s intelligence. And yet there are enough Whedonites out there lecturing the rest of us to watch the show because that way we can prove we’re smart that I think it leads to a backlash. Or, to put it the South Park way: I think a certain percetnage of Whedon’s fans have become infected by smugness. They just *love* the smell of their own farts. “I’ll just have an empty glass, please. Snnnniiifffff! Aaaaahhhhhhhhh…”
Regarding Dollhouse being allowed to show all 13 eps: I’m happy about this. I enjoyed the last few eps of season one and in fact I bought the DVD set to see Epitaph One, which was excellent. I also thought Eliza did quite well, though through no fault of her own Victor and Sierra are far more interesting. The problems inherent in the show are structural. And I don’t think they’re going away unless Whedon literally rethinks everything from the ground up including the premise, the characters and the cast (Talmoh is as boring as the day is long.) But at least with thirteen definitely being made and aired the story can have some resolution for this season, which I’m glad for. I’ll still never warm up to most of these characters and that’s simply Whedon’s fault for creating a premise which works against the viewer and undermines and erases inter-chracter relationships at every turn. I think the audience for this show is limited and I doubt it will get a third season and if the ratings remain where they are I think the remaining episodes will simply be burned off, but I will be buying the season two DVD.
But not because I’m smart.
I’ll never understand the Whedon-fan martyr complex that dictates people are getting satisfaction out of pointing out that their TV show is crap: beset by plot-holes, uninteresting characters, half-baked premise, the overbearing subtext-outweighs-the-story writing.
If this is one of the best shows on TV right now, I’d say all the networks should be burned down and started from scratch.
That’s not me sticking it to anyone, that’s just my opinion. I’m not attacking anyone but the show, if you want to call it attacking.
I also don’t think the great Whedon-fandom is anywhere near as influential as it thinks it is. I don’t think that Dollhouse’s survival is bent upon the building of a fanbase (Whedon’s a poor-man’s JJ Abrams who hasn’t had a Big Four-certified hit yet), but rather a resolve to ’stick with it’, which I think they would have done no matter who the showrunner was.
Maybe it’s because it’s being more cheaply done this season. Maybe it’s because the combination of low expectations met with low ratings and the show is doing in its slot roughly what it’s expected to. This one only gets more notice because of its loud (but as stated earlier, largely unthreatening) fandom.
The DVR argument, I’m not buying…yet. It’s a kick, but not a great weight on decisions. Let’s see if the DVR brings some follow-on to watch it live. Let’s see if the numbers flatten out instead of falling. Let’s see if Summer Glau (who couldn’t save TSCC) really brings the numbers up.
I’m not going to ‘congratulate’ the fandom if Dollhouse gets another season (it is, after all, just a TV show, and the amount of effort that takes to watch isn’t some great contribution on its behalf), but I wouldn’t be surprised if it did.
so you’re all saying that this is all just FOX trying to calm us down before they announce no episodes will be airing in November? you’re all bumming me out.
Robert Seidman says
‘Dollhouse struck down by lightning from the heavens’
No no Robert, its going to be:
“Dollhouse renewed for season 3″
grr_argh: so you’re all saying that this is all just FOX trying to calm us down before they announce no episodes will be airing in November? you’re all bumming me out.
I think that’s a reasonable way to look at it. FOX is just heading off at the pass all the questions it would’ve gotten if it put out a revised schedule for November WITHOUT saying anything.
It’s probably crazy, but I will believe more of the spin of an exec in a press release than an untried no-name source on an internet message board.
@Robert
sneaky execs. and here i thought the announcement was made because of the dvr ratings and us loyal fans. i should’ve known better.
buffywrestling, all I’m saying is that there’s nothing that has been said or done to disprove Chris. Nothing to prove that what he said is true either, but trying to call him out on such flimsy proof is ridiculous.
@Liz: “’ll never understand the Whedon-fan martyr complex that dictates people are getting satisfaction out of pointing out that their TV show is crap: beset by plot-holes, uninteresting characters, half-baked premise, the overbearing subtext-outweighs-the-story writing.”
- if it’s not satisfaction, I don’t know what it is. I’ve seen some Grey’s Anatomy, for example, and find it excruciatingly bad. Yet 20 million people are watching it every week. Does that make it good somehow? Do I go around telling everyone I know how awful it is? Hell no. I have more important things to do.
- plot holes? I am aware of inconsistencies, but they don’t bother me at all. The basic premise requires a very substantial leap of faith in order to be allowed to get to the “meat of things” so if you’re looking for reasons to dislike it, I guess it is a good place to start.
- uninteresting characters and half-baked plot? Please. Highly subjective and frankly not worth discussing.
- writing? I happen to like that style. I enjoy the subtext most of all most of the time, and the stories themselves are not why I watch the show.
And how does the “Whedon fandom think it’s important” exactly? I’m frankly surprised FOX is even acknowledging the fan base and their efforts. In my view, it’s the haters who are making the “Whedonites” into some kind of a raging sect who floods the internets preaching the Word of Joss. Hell, I’m not even sure if Joss’ Biggest Fan is not Robert or Bill themselves, generating Dollhouse hits for the site.
Budo, I believe 95% of the people reading JBF’s comments believe that JBF is a deranged Whedon fanboy rather than seeing it for the sarcasm it actually is. That’s art. Neither Bill nor I have that kind of talent.
Sorry Julia. Sometimes it’s just frustrating to see flimsy speculation trotted out as proof. I’ll say no more.
Robert, flame-baiting is a special art not many can master, it seems.
Hey, Mr. Seidman, a Christmas marathon isn’t as bizarre as you think. I remember years ago that TNT did “A Beastmaster Christmas,” with Beastmaster star Marc Singer hosting, and it was really a hoot. I think my son still has that on some obscure VHS tape somewhere.
Fox could put it on later in the day, when everyone is winding down. They might get a real surprise and it might actually get some people interested in it that would not have paid any attention to it before. With the exception of the football playoffs, if they have any on Christmas this year, Fox will be showing some rerun of something anyway, and since Dollhouse is at a bargain price, as you have reported, they might as well get their money’s worth out of it and use it as much as possible.
By the way, I have never watched Dollhouse, as it’s really not my thing, but as I have said, I wished for Ms. Dushku to finally have success, as I like her as a performer. The marathon idea could be really funny. They probably wouldn’t have much to lose since its a slow day, and I am sure that businesses will have many ads touting their after Christmas sales that Fox could stuff between the shows.
lainey, no football playoffs on Christmas, but there are college football bowl games.
Julia, Chargers play the Titans on Christmas Day (7:30p EST) but it’s on NFL Network. I was joking about the marathon though.
I’d save a few of them to air on 2/12, 2/19 and 2/26 against the Winter Olympics (I think 2/12 is the opening ceremonies).
@Budo
I think your comment confirms what Mark and Liz were saying. If you can’t see the gapping plot-holes and instead call them inconsistency then maybe you’re not objective enough to see their POV.
Also your point about Grey’s is totally irrelevant and perhaps also myopic. I don’t watch GA but I understand that it is basically a soap opera about the lives of young doctors and the show excels at being a soap opera. Oh and guess what, by writing on a website that you find it excruciatingly bad and that you have more important things to do then tell people about it shows that you are a hypocrite because that is exactly what you just did.
That’s good news for my brother and I, we get together to watch this show (and a few others) on DVR and enjoy it.
As for the little flame-fest you guys have got going here.. wow.. gotta say I agree wholeheartedly with Budo over there. I’ve actually been following this site for several weeks now and when it comes to Dollhouse, the trolls and hate-flingers are alive and well on this site. Meanwhile, I’ve seen next to no evidence at all of this supposed raving smug fanboyism you guys claim exist. It doesn’t… at least I haven’t seen it anywhere on this site in the last few weeks: The Whedon fans like grr-argh and Budo actually make calm, reasoned comments while the rest of you cackle, leer at and mock them for your own satisfaction.
But, we all make our own imaginary scenarios for ourselves, where what we do is justified, don’t we. Very very few people in actual mainstream media can actually be said to maintain professionalism nowadays, and certainly none in the internet crowd can match up.
Robert, I know you were joking.
The problem with saving Dollhouse for the Olympics is then that’s Feb sweeps. As much as anything going against the Olympics is going to be slaughtered, at least something else might have a small chance to perform slightly.
yikes, completely forgot about February sweeps being in February again this year!
Julia,
I made an error. There will be no playoffs, but there will be a regular season game between San Diego and Tennesee in the evening on December 25th, according to the NFL schedule. I thought that the regular season would be over by then; I am behind the times, somewhat, but I did remember that they do play pro ball on Christmas day now, which they certainly didn’t used to do.
After my “‘Til Death Independence Day Marathon” idea was foolishly overlooked by Fox, I am certain my new “All Dollhouse All The Time New Year’s Spectacular” concept will not be so lightly dismissed.
lainey, and afterwards, the final Sunday of the NFL regular season is
December 27.January 3 (corrected by Robert).Mr. Seidman,
I knew you were joking. I was too, actually, However, if they did decided, strangely, to do such a thing, they still would not have that much to lose, IMO.
Poor Bill, first Independence Day was bumped for what? Virtuality? Now New Years “All Dollhouse Al The Time” foiled by the Allstate Sugar Bowl at 8:30pm. Sorry, man.
Thanks, Mr. Gorman. I knew it ran more into December, I just wasn’t sure exactly what the dates were.
Actually the final Sunday of the NFL season is Sunday, January 3…
Oops, I meant the last date, as I only looked up the Christmas date.
I better retire for the evening now….
@ mark,
You make some fair points that I would either agree with, or for which I can at least understand how you arrived at your conclusions.
It may be that there are some Whedon fans that are truly so insufferable that some readers subsequently feel that they need to be angry and rude in return. Though that is not a philosophy that I personally subscribe to. I’m sure that some fans of Joss Whedon are absolute jerks, but that is true of non-Joss Whedon fans as well. And I would guess that it’s true of (almost) every other fandom. (I’ve never seen any over-the-top Mother Theresa fans, but it’s possible that I just have missed them
).
But even the terms “Whedonites” & “Joss Whedon Fans” trouble me, because there are more than a few who only like one or two of his works, whether that is Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Dr Horrible, or Dollhouse. There are Angel fans who don’t like Buffy, Buffy fans who don’t like Angel. And a number of them have no interest in Firefly, Dr Horrible, etc. In the same way, there are Firefly fans who refuse to watch Buffy or Angel and even some fans who like Firefly but not Serenity and vice-versa. And so on. There really doesn’t seem a group mind or opinion to me.
Perhaps I have missed something, or been visiting the wrong sites, but I don’t see a monolithic fanbase that is rabid and rude. If there are any sites where that’s going on, then I would genuinely appreciate it if you could point them out to me, so I could better understand where the negative backlash against them comes from.
I’m also wondering if enthusiasm is being mistaken for more than it is? I can only speak for myself, but personally, I do see several problems with Dollhouse and by no means would I characterize it as without faults. And while it’s among the Network shows that I most enjoy of those currently being broadcast, it is by no means an all-time favorite.
But this site isn’t designed for an in-depth discussion of the pros & cons of the show. So usually if I like a show then I will root for that show, especially when it is in danger of cancelation. That enthusiasm shouldn’t be mistaken for blind devotion and it certainly shouldn’t be mistaken for my trying to be rude, I simply want to support my program. I have seen most of my favorites canceled prematurely and so I feel an extra responsibility to support those that I can.
I do agree that Dollhouse is far from perfect, though unfortunately I don’t have the time right now to give an in-depth analysis of it’s positives and negatives, of all that it hopes to explore and to what extent it actually achieves those goals. I have heard that it is handicapped to at least some extent. Whedon has stated that he was told to “dance around” the issue of prostitution, which obviously causes him to neglect some elements that seem like they should be dealt with.
I would absolutely agree that the audience doesn’t have a major character with whom they can connect with, but is that necessarily a flaw of the show? Obviously there are many people who want to empathize with one or more of a show’s main characters, but is that identification essential to a good show? For me it’s not, but I may well be in the minority. I watched Buffy for the first time when I was in my 20’s and didn’t find a single one of the major (or even most of the minor) characters particularly likable but I still enjoyed the story that was being told (at least most of the time).
The show does say that exploitation is bad and they definitely do exploiting (or appear to), but is it truly exploiting Dushku if it’s her show, and she’s not just the main actress but also one of the main producers? She was the one with the contract for a new Fox show and she was the one who okayed Whedon’s idea and she has appeared to be supportive of the skimpy outfits and sexual situations in which the show has sometimes gone. Perhaps even with that then she is still being exploited, but I do like that that is one of the many questions that the show causes us to ask.
For me, Dollhouse is a show about shades of grey. Except for a few very minor characters, and now, maybe Senator Perrin, we have not had anyone who has been a “good” person. We have had a number of people who have engaged in morally questionable to morally repugnant behavior and it’s up to us as the audience to evaluate exactly how “wrong” their thinking and actions actually are. I like that the show doesn’t want me to sit passively back and assume that the leads are infallible or likable simply because they are the leads.
You bring up Ballard and to me he’s the perfect example of this. In another show he would clearly be the hero. He sees a damsel in distress and does whatever needs be to attempt to rescue her. But in Dollhouse, that’s far from the reality of his character.
“And finally the writing is often simply not that engaging and the missions don’t always hold my interest”.
I don’t know that I would say “often”, but I’d agree that sometimes the show does indeed fall short. Sometimes in the writing, sometimes in the mission, sometimes in the acting. But for me, when it misses then it’s still about as good as most of what else is on TV and when it hits then it’s much better. Obviously we are all unique and I understand that others might not agree, but that is my opinion.
As for the “intelligence” issue, then I don’t agree with it at all, from either side. Imo, anyone who seeks to presume someone else’s intelligence based on one factor, or limited information, is not worth listening to.
In any event, I’m glad that despite those aspects that sound quite problematic for you (as well as for many others), that you are still finding enough in it to continue to watch. Hopefully you will find more about it to like as it continues, but in any event, I’m glad that we could have a polite conversation about our different perspectives of Dollhouse. =)
Any chance that there’s an award for longest post of the day?
@Kyle
- I never said Dollhouse doesn’t have plot holes, I just said that it doesn’t detract from my enjoyment of what I DO like about the show. I know what’s wrong with perfectly well, but I also now why, and I can look past that because there’s enough to really and truly enjoy there. I just don’t see rub it in everyone’s face.
- You are making my point for me on GA: that was the only sentence I have ever written on it, anywhere, and I don’t intend to comment after this, ever again. Because I don’t care about it one bit. My point was – 20 million people who do care have every right to. The sad truth about the state of television is that, yes, sci-fi (good, bad or average, doesn’t matter) is a small niche that only pays off if it makes compromises, and most people don’t care and/or don’t understand it as a genre, and even less those who enjoy it.
Dollhouse, with all its faults, had potential as a storytelling frame, and for various reasons didn’t live up to it. I’ll enjoy all we get from it, and I just wish the haters would stop raining on the fans’ parade.
Fox will air the Sugar Bowl Jan. 1 so adjust your Dollhouse marathon projections accordingly.
Maybe they are calculating another source of revenue? dvd sales, merchandise, etc,.
GREAT NEWS!!!
Don’t care anymore, I was totally turned off by the season 2 premiere, and I still didn’t saw Summer Glau. Dollhouse, you and me we’re done!
I am sure Fox is counting all of the DVD, Blu-Ray and Itunes sales they will get over the next four or five years from Joss Whedon fans. I am glad they are airing, if only to see Summer Glau again after Terminator. But, I agree that there is absolutely no way at all Fox will renew Dollhouse after this season or even order nine more episodes. That said, it is a good thing they are only now finishing with episode seven of this season, so they can hopefully have a satisfying finale.
Yay!
hooray! However double dollhouse fridays=worst idea ever.
PS. Bring Chuck back in November please.
Though I do think the odds against Dollhouse being renewed are really long, I don’t think it’s *quite* impossible. Whedon could retool the show–how about giving us more Victor, more Sierra, less Echo? How about contradicting Epitaph One and having the Dollhouse actually fall before the tech ends the world? (Actually Whedon really should consider contradicting Epitaph One because it locks him into certain things.) How about having a doll escape from the Dollhouse and tell the authorities their story? Maybe Victor–who is the most interesting character and played by the best actor in the ensemble–could escape, go on the run, and try to bring the Dollhouse down himself? Or maybe a new castmember can be brought in, someone people want to tune in for, maybe even someone with their own sci-fi fanbase. I don’t think Summer Glau does the trick for anyone outside the current core audience–the general public that ignores Dollhouse in droves hasn’t really heard of her. But how about someone like Gillian Anderson? Or even, dare I say it, Sarah Michelle Gellar could be brought on for a few episodes? Sure, it’s stuntcasting–as if Whedon casting all his friends isn’t? But SMG would get people who are friendly to Whedon’s concepts, but have dropped away, to resample the show. Dollhouse’s biggest problem isn’t that it’s not a mainstream hit–it’s that it has lost the lion’s share of the people who *were* willing to tune in. There are steps that can be taken to try to lure them back.
Beyond that, it’s just barely possible Fox will keep the show around on Fridays if it stops bleeding viewers and stabilizes–as a sort of long-term payoff strategy, or even an experiment to see if stability on Fridays pays off more than constant upheaval in the long run.
I’ve never understood why people WANT shows canceled. If you don’t like a show – don’t watch it. The show does not HAVE to be watched if you don’t like it. I don’t care for American Idol but its very popular, or so I hear. So should I start demanding people quit watching it or complain that they are stupid because they DO watch it and like it?
You Dollhouse whiners are the pathetic ones, not the fans.
cyberelf, gosh im gonna come and hug you. Totally agree with you. This website is a pathetic death watch for shows.
Good lord. The animosity surrounding this show on this site is ridiculous.
This is a good and bad statement for Dollhouse fans. Seems to say “We will air the 13, but don’t look for more.” I can live with that. Hopefully, Whedon came up with a finale that is series ending worthy.
” The Game ” was renewed by BET(from The CW)
Super Bowl Sunday marathon.
WOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Fantastic news!!! I am happy with that even if it gets cancelled after
Totally agree with cyberelf.
AO, you win the prize for longest post. But rest assured at least *one* person (me) read it in full, and it was a very good read.
Now that that’s out of the way, here’s the state of my mind: Wooooohoooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111oneoneeleven
Ok, I realize Fox is maybe planning to burn off the show in non-sweeps months and that was that for it, but you know what? I don’t care. I get 13 episodes. And all you haters can stuff it.
AO – Well there was a special episode this sunday but Im not sure they are burning off all episodes. 7 episodes total will have aired by October 30 so they could just burn the rest of the episodes off by January. I feel bad that Brothers ended up premiering fridays to such low numbers since its not a bad series, and FOX does need comedies. If Brothers is gone soon I can understand that but FOX is really having trouble with their live action comedies.
If I lived in America and I was watching Dollhouse, I would keep flicking onto FOX and then another channel then back onto FOX and so on when Dollhouse is on, would that help bump the ratings up a bit?
I love Dollhouse by the way, I got a few of my friends here in the UK into it.
The worst show on TV!
I second that emotion. I loved Firefly and saw Serenity the first day of its release, and I’m a fan of Elisha Dushku, but Dollhouse is absolutely terrible. Every time I give the show a chance it gets worse — the last episode, with women hitting each other with mallets and the male doll pretending to be a hot girl because of a convenient server outage, was the worst yet. Buffy knew how to use humor to lighten up dark SF/fantasy. The homophobic gag in the last Dollhouse was corny. Whedon’s fan base has turned him self-indulgent.
Can I be the first to respond to this post, and can I just say that it’s great news?
No? Oh, OK, then I’ll be the 726th person then…
I’m not altogether sure this is going to be a great season, but the last episode was excellent, a perfect example of the mixed “unsettling humor” thing that I love about the show, and the use of a serial killer as a mirror of the Dollhouse ought to have put the “Whedon is trying to promote rape!” idiocy to rest. I’m hoping the show will continue with episodes of that quality, and hopefully it’s brought a few more viewers to the show.
Called it!
I haven’t watched an episode yet this season – I don’t “count” anyway since I’m not a Nielsen “family.” But I hope it survives. Watched S1 on DVD over the summmer and found it to be O.K. A little painful at times, but otherwise entertaining. Since it got better at the end of S1, I’m assuming/hoping that S2 will be better, too – when I get it NEXT summer on DVD!!
I’m only waiting for the Glau episodes. The show itself doesn’t interest me.
I think when they were in the airport hanger with jamie bamber… that was a greenscreened airplane behind them, wasn’t it? or am i just seeing things?
they could learn a lot from Sanctuary for ways to lower their budget.
Some folks, including corporate lurkers, have a vested interest in rational economic decisions. So, yes, I do cheer for poor decisions to be rewarded with poor results. Folks can want good decisions to be made without being “haters.” If we all did cultural studies, then it would be easy to cheer for fan communities, since we all don’t do cultural studies, you know, we need the market to function to study it. This is why Silverman was such a study in irrationality, both fascinating and terrifying. Hollywood accounting is already opaque at best; if you can’t get some kind of stable interface point for analysis, then this entire industry becomes utterly inane.
As the folks in Iowa are learning, governmental financing of productions is a tricky business, and in roughly 40 states is the norm. Frankly, there are plenty of good reasons for folks to read these articles and comment sections without making a personal affront to anyone.
In one way, it’s good because FOX cares about Dollhouse fans but in another way it’s bad… I think FOX wants to cancel Dollhouse… Better, I think that Dollhouse will be cancelled…
So, I must say that FOX needs to give to Dollhouse a wonderful ending.
Glad the Dollhouse fans will get to see all the episodes ordered. I don’t like to see any Sci-Fi shows canceled, the genre’s in enough trouble as it is on Broadcast.
However, I think Whedon’s comment in the THR article about closure speaks volumes. Most showrunners don’t say such things if they think the show is coming back, right?
I don’t think Fox wants to cancel anything, be it Glee, House, or The Cleveland Show or Dollhouse, but I do think they’ll make a cold business decision at the end of Dollhouse’s run, which, unless something radical happens to the ratings, will probably mean an end to the show.
I suspect Dollhouse probably has to climb up to a 1.5 (without DVR help) or higher by the end of the season, based upon what Nick C has said about Fox’s “expectations”.
As for fears about no finality, this is from TFA:
[QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
Of course, Epitaph One also does the finality thing, but…
This is a coded cancellation notice, and Whedon clearly is interpreting it as such, writing the 13th ep of this season as a finale.
Sure, if the ratings go up a lot, they might renew.
But they won’t. Dollhouse runs ten more eps, then fades from TV history forever. The End.
The only way any network is going to pull decent numbers on a Friday night is if they get a caring, emotional female lead, who somehow has mystic powers to allow her to communicate with the dead or get premonitions about cases, and toss her in with a season-arcless, episodic series which has a cop case of the week.
Sample cop cases that will enthrall the Friday night viewing audience:
* An aging business mogul is being blackmailed, his family held hostage by a young, up and coming competitor.
* An elderly woman is the key to solving a series of murders… but she has Alzheimer’s!
* An old man is murdered. WHO DUNNIT?
* An elderly couple has lost their healthcare just when they need it most. Where did it go? Only JLH can solve this case, by talking to even older dead people who also lost their health care. Guest appearances by Senator McCain will boost this episodes ratings during sweeps!
* Old people.
* Old people.
* Old people.
Otherwise, Friday’s will always have low numbers. They should design a show around a DVR audience. Make the commercials slooooooowwww images that when fastforwarded, still get their message across.
“I’m only waiting for the Glau episodes. The show itself doesn’t interest me.”
I’m just waiting for the whole mess to be shut down forever. Glau doesn’t interest anyone but obsessive online fanfreaks.
Eric, didn’t Dushku formerly play a compassionate female lead who communicated with the dead?
Tru Calling ran 26 episodes. Fewer even than Dollhouse.
I know you were joking, but let’s face it. The problem is the showrunner and the star. And there wouldn’t have been a show without both of them. So it was doomed no matter what they did.
Oh, good. For a second there, I was worried the FOX network was going to deprive the world of 10 more weeks of women getting raped.
Yes, great news! The show may be far from perfect but still manages to outshine the vast majority of what’s offered by the networks.
I guess the announcement was made to put an end to the speculation about the show’s future, for now at least. But I’ll be afraid again if it slips to a 0.8 demo rating next week.
There sure is a lot of vitriole about this show (on both sides). Ideally we’d have a moderator to delete it as soon as it appears, but I suspect that’s would be just a little too much to ask. Fortunately it can be spotted instantly and easily skipped, like spam. (”Cheap viagra”, “Earn $$$ by surfing”, “Dollhouse sux!”)
“Oh, good. For a second there, I was worried the FOX network was going to deprive the world of 10 more weeks of women getting raped.”
lol. they’re willing. they sign a contract saying ‘ya ill be a doll.’
(and you’re gonna LOVE next weeks episode, lolol.)
@cyberelf
I can only speak for myself, since not everyone enjoys watching shows die. I, however, do. I couldn’t care less about American Dance or So You Think You’re an Idol, but I enjoy watching TV shows get “voted off”. It’s my version of reality programming.
And for the record, no, I don’t whine when MY faves get cancelled. I’m still mourning Journeyman and TSCC, but I don’t think they got axed because Americans are stupid or because networks are evil. My taste in shows is often in the minority, so it often sucks to be me.
But you know what’s great entertainment? Watching shows plow into the turf, and watching their fans run around with torches and pitchforks blaming everything EXCEPT the reason almost every show fails: because it wasn’t good enough to capture a reasonable share of the market.
@Dan
1) In a neoclassical economic model, market mechanisms can lead to suboptimal provision of goods that have externalities. I’ll ignore Dollhouse for this argument, but a show like, “Reading Rainbow” we might want to see provided even if it doesn’t float by itself on advertiser revenue.
2) A corporate lurkers interest in “rational economic decisions” is perhaps less intense than their interest in “profit-maximizing” economic decisions. Even irrational behavior leads to increased profits, then let’s all go for it.
2.a) In truth, corporate lurkers are probably more invested in personal profit-maximizing economic decisions. So they care less if FOX makes money, then if they do. The people who renewed Dollhouse is therefore more likely looking for justification that the renewal decision was correct (so that he/she can say to his/her boss that he made the right decision) and the people who decided on its likely cancellation would look for justification that this current decision is correct (so that he/she can say …).
3) Simply because not everyone studies cultural studies doesn’t mean that market needs to function in order to study Dollhouse from an economic perspective. There is no logical connection.
3.a) Furthermore, on a philosophy of science standpoint — arguing that real life’s failure to fit an economic model as a failure of real life is one of the main flaws of neoclassical economics. Isn’t it more appropriate to say the model is wrong?
4) Even if we proscribe to market mechanisms, the market (and choice-based models) tends to be done without emotion. There should be no cheering either way — people are expected to make choices that maximize their personal benefit, but we make no (moral-based) judgments on their choices. So even if we believe purely in economic reasoning, there is no reason to “cheer” on a decision to correct an error.
I appreciate that you would like to take an academic perspective on this, but I always cringe at the misapplication of principles. Ironically, I am much more amenable to people’s opinions (which are generally unassailable, since one’s opinion is always one’s own) than an incomplete attempt at objective rigor.
That said — on a broad note — the reason I love the tvbythenumbers board is that it is one of the least affected by pure fanboy swagger. Sadly, this is probably the only board I’ve seen people say: “I think X— show is great, but the ratings don’t justify renewal” or similar comments.
hm… i can’t post as long AO. I need practice.
“lol. they’re willing. they sign a contract saying ‘ya ill be a doll.’”
Unfortunately the “contract” (it isn’t an actual legal contract) doesn’t mention the fact that if you begin to annoy the Dollhouse you will be permanently erased and sent to the Attic as a mindless, empty vegetable. I’m thinking anyone who signs up to be a Doll and honestly expects the “contract” to be honored is actually pretty brain-dead already. Which is why I dislike Caroline, and one of the reasons the premise of the show is wobbly. And the Dolls are all being raped–even Victor was raped. Adelle (whom we’re supposed to root for as some sort of flawed person of conscience) raped him repeatedly.
I’m very happy! I love this show… and i’m hoping for a 3rd season… am i dreaming?? XD
Interview on Dark Horizons said that the producers are currently filming the 8th episode and will have a Series Finale with a couple of small holes just in case they get re-newed – their preparing for cancellation sooo – they will get some kind of ending…Like Bionic Woman & Terminator.
Ha, ha! Take that, haters!
Mark said: “Adelle (whom we’re supposed to root for as some sort of flawed person of conscience)…”
When has the show said that she’s a “flawed person of conscience?” I haven’t gotten that message from the show AT ALL. Are you making the mistake of taking her dialogue justifying the Dollhouse’s existence at face value, as a message from the producers? I see her as one of the scariest kinds of evil characters: A smooth talker seemingly effortlessly seeking to make you sympathize with her and accept her moral relativism.
As someone else here pointed out, the show lets you make your own judgments. Nobody in the show is necessarily “likable,” as far as I’m concerned.
Anyway, this is a fairly intriguing thread. I agree with a lot of Mark’s comments in his second and third paragraphs (6:43 above) and also AO’s response.
As for the potential future air schedule, doesn’t Fox usually air a movie on the day after Thanksgiving? If so, I’d imagine Nov. 27 is out. OTOH, the networks don’t seem to take sweeps so seriously anymore (fewer pre-emptions, fewer stunts, fewer major guest stars in recent years) so maybe we might still get an episode on the 30th, as currently scheduled, instead of it being yanked.
@kermonk
@Robert Seidman
with tribute to JBF
Here’s a headline for you, sure draw a comment or two after DH gets the S2 back 9…
“Dollhouse Surpases TSCC in Number of Aired Episodes”
~Lanie~
Dollhouse is lame as hell imo. Take it off the air already! Eliza can’t act for sh*t.
Translated version of the quote:
“The ratings are abysmal and we really should just pull it off the air, but we’re going to be nice and keep it on the air for 13 episodes for the fans. And yes, when those are aired, we’re going to cancel it.”
This is actually a pretty nice thing of Fox to do. But I think this is a VERY clear message saying that the show is done, especially when they go out of their way to say the ratings AREN’T good instead of just saying the show will at least air the remaining episodes.
As so many have echoed I think DH is Fox’s sacrificial expense purely for PR purposes. DH has direct linkage to FireFly, which is arguably Fox’s biggest T.V. blunder, PR wise, so it fits perfectly as a face saving tactic.
In fact down the road Fox’s leniency toward DH could, hypothetically, be used as defense against anti-Fox proponents.
Ike: “When has the show said that she’s a “flawed person of conscience?” I haven’t gotten that message from the show AT ALL. Are you making the mistake of taking her dialogue justifying the Dollhouse’s existence at face value, as a message from the producers?”
I think one of Dollhouse’s central problems is the fact that the writers want us to see the people running the Dollhouse as “morally gray” rather than outright villains; they want to humanize them. The problem is, those characters are pimps, rapists, and murderers and some viewers find it offensive that the episodes don’t address that simple fact head-on. You can’t humanize a villain until you at least admit that, yes, they are villains: they have done reprehensible things. And I get the sense from Dollhouse that the writers don’t see it as reprehensible. (In fact the idea of Rossum as villains was mandated by Fox; Whedon’s original intention was that the Dollhouses were funding beneficial research–the ends justifying the means essentially.) The episode “Man on the Street” ended with Echo desiring to return to the software designer who rents out a Doll every year on his dead wife’s birthday; the writers wanted us to see this as touching, somehow, as if part of Echo felt that man’s deep pain and wanted to heal it by finishing the engagement to be his wife for a day. I saw it as a brainwashed slave returning meekly to her rapist. The fact that the writers try to force us to see the Dollhouse clients in a sympathetic light is one of the things that diatsances me from the show. That software deigner was, to me, a rapist, nothing more, and the ending of the episode offended me frankly. As for Adelle, she has been shown in various episodes talking about doing charitable work, talking about the positive benefits of the Dollhouse tech, desiring to help people (the woman who investigated her own death) feeling that a serial killer is reprehensible and wishing he were dead, and taking a moral stand against the permanent taking of actives’ bodies in Epitaph One. Which is all well and good–people change, people, even bad ones, examine their moral choices. But Adelle is a pimp and a rapist and a murderer: she pimps out the Dolls, she raped Victor repatedly, she murdered Lawrence Dominic. And those facts are never even brought up for debate by the writers, they aren’t even acknowledged. Instead the writers want us to see the positive aspects of the Dollhouse, instead we have episodes showing how Adelle is lonely and therefore “loves” Victor, we have episodes showing Adelle getting high and acting goofy with Topher, we have episodes where Adelle points out Ballad’s moral hypocrisy. But her own hyocrisy–her outright evil–is never a subject for debate; it’s never even really brought up. I would like Dollhouse a hell of a lot better if Caroline, during one of the instances in which she has momentarily returned to self-awareness, confronted Adelle with a simple “You pimped me out. Made me a whore. Would have killed me without a second thought if you found out I was becoming self-aware.” One moment like that would go a long way for me. Instead, Adelle is this show’s Spike–the villain we’re supposed to sympathize with, and I simply can’t.
My favorite quote from Beckman in the full article, “I’m still paying for ‘Terminator.’ ‘Dollhouse’ has a small rabid fan base that in the world of social media seems bigger than it is. We gave them another season knowing full well we were going to burn in hell if we pulled it.” What he means is “Dollhouse fanbase are whackos who spend too much time on the internet and they scare me even more than the Terminator fans.”
I can analyze Dollhouse real quickly as a Joss Whedon fan. It’s a steaming pile of dog doo. It needs to be ended so he can work on something that doesn’t suck.
I love the guy who wrote “take that haters” and doesn’t seem to realize this is a nice way of FOX saying we are going to air only the 13. If it weren’t for what they did to Joss with Firefly they wouldn’t even be doing that.
I don’t get it… How is the software designer a rapist?? If we ignore his fantasy and just look at the physical aspect of that engagement, he basically hired a hooker. That’s not rape. That’s prostitution.
I will accept a lot of the criticism of the show… but the rape angle I just don’t get. I saw only one occurrence of rape in the show – Hearn abusing Sierra. Ok, next episode might bring more, when we learn about how Priya became Sierra. The Priya situation is really quite dodgy, so I’m very interested to see how that story will play out.
Gusar,
Yeah, I too am often surprised by the degree to which many of the critics focus on rape.
We’re talking about a technology and a procedure that seem to take away people’s souls and leave them as completely malleable slaves. Compared to that, is what happens to their bodies REALLY the major concern? Especially for those people who became dolls willingly. Did they really not guess that sex was a possibility when they signed their contracts?
Would those who focus so much on the sex aspect be fine with the premise if they were still turned into mindless slaves, but there was a prohibition on sex?
“I don’t get it… How is the software designer a rapist?? If we ignore his fantasy and just look at the physical aspect of that engagement, he basically hired a hooker. That’s not rape. That’s prostitution.”
No offense, but I don’t get why so many people don’t get it. A Doll can’t consent. A Doll has no free will. It’s rape. There are no shades of gray here. Sex without consent is rape. The software designer didn’t jump out of tne bushes but that doesn’t mean it’s not rape. And as for the argument that the people signing up for the Dollhouse understood they would be used for sex when they signed the “contract”–well, even if you want to use that argument, we know Caroline was coerced into signing up and Sierra was outright kidnapped.
“Yeah, I too am often surprised by the degree to which many of the critics focus on rape.”
Rape is a taboo that crosses a psychological line in most cultures. For instance–there are plenty of slasher film series out there that people go to see for fun–in these movies people get murdered inventively and for some viewers the experience is thrilling, maybe even carthartic. Freddy Kreuger, Jason, the Saw movies, Final Destination, etc. Murder after murder after murder and lots of people go to see them because to a degree they’re acceptable escapist fantasy. No one feels guilty for seeing them, even people who don’t care for the content wouldn’t feel guilty if they caught, say, Friday the Thirteenth Part Five on Showtime. But you notice that there aren’t any “rapist film series.” There are no Freddy Kreuger characters who, instead of murdering a half dozen teenagers, rape a half-dozen teenagers instead. Because that crosses a line for just about everyone. We would rather see someone murdered on film than raped. Don’t ask me why, that’s just how it is for most people.
As to the larger point of just focusing on sex in the Dollhouse, there are plenty of kinds of rape and in my opinion all the Dolls have been raped, even the ones who aren’t sent out to be whores. And I think the critics focus on rape so much beause the writers refuse to acknowledge that these acts are rape. There is, to me, a hint of intellectual cowardice in that, on the part of the writers. I think the critics just want the writers to own up to what they’re portraying here. The software designer, instead of being presented to us as a rapist, was presented as a guy we should feel sympathy for–even Echo felt sympathy for him, so much so that she returned to him so he could complete his rape of her. Ballard called him a predator I believe but he never once used the word RAPE–the writers never use that word to decribe the Dolls’ sex missions. Because they’re afraid to use the word, I think.
Mark, what I saw in that particular episode was a certain Rebbecca, who very much wanted to sleep with that guy. Similar thing with Ballard – it wasn’t Madeline who slept with Ballard, it was Mellie. And she was a willing participant.
As I said, the only occurrence of rape I saw was with Hearn and Sierra (”Do you want to play the game?” – “No.”)
And as for the argument that the people signing up for the Dollhouse understood they would be used for sex when they signed the “contract”–well, even if you want to use that argument, we know Caroline was coerced into signing up and Sierra was outright kidnapped.
Priya, not Sierra. And therein lies the point: Caroline and Priya aren’t there when the dolls are sent out on their romantic engagements. Caroline and Priya and Madeline are stored on their respective hard-drives, while Rebbecca, Mellie, etc. are sent out on engagements.
Ballard called him a predator I believe but he never once used the word RAPE–the writers never use that word to decribe the Dolls’ sex missions. Because they’re afraid to use the word, I think.
Or, because they, like me, don’t see it as rape.
Let’s address this head-on: As yet, Sierra is the only doll that appears have been interred into the Dollhouse non-consensually, so regardless of whether you believe a wiped Doll is the same as an unwiped Doll, she’s the only one you can legitimately claim in any sense is “being raped”. Victor and November aren’t. Both went in voluntarily, and consented to their bodies being used by the Dollhouse as they see fit. That may not be right, but I do sometimes get concerned when people who know that something is wrong need to use a loaded term to describe it, be it “stealing movies” or “statutory rape” (the overloading of which has confused a lot of people into thinking Polanski’s crime was to have sex with an underage girl, rather than actually raping her, which he apparently did.)
Regardless of whether the word applies though, it’s very difficult for me to understand why anyone out there thinks that the show in some way condones rape, or more importantly condones what the Dollhouse does. I understand people not liking the fact that DeWitt doesn’t randomly shoot underlings who have failed her, constantly pounding the table with her fists as she barks orders with a halting germanic-like accent, though I find it hard to understand why people assume that because DeWitt is a sympathetic character (and she is) that this also implies that Dollhouse’s writers are condoning what she does. Likewise Topher, who seems to be an exploration of everything Whedon finds discomforting about himself.
Even if DeWitt is sympathetic, the Dollhouse’s owners and operators, Rossum Corporation, are portrayed as a stereotypically evil corporation. So even an argument “DeWitt is a human being, and she shouldn’t be, even though human beings were also responsible for Treblinka and Auschwitz” doesn’t hold in the wider view.
Whatever. I’ve said all this before. Cue idiotic responses of the “I don’t understand what you say so you love rapists” responses in 3… 2… 1… (That’s what I generally get for pointing out the obvious.)
I never expected so much opposition to putting the Milgram Experiment on TV. Perhaps the problem is the message, the conclusion of the Milgram experiment. Those people who do these things, who when instructed, even voluntarily, to do evil things, go ahead and do them, they’re just like you.
dumb fox is dumb. sluthouse should have been axed at the end of last season already.
“Whatever. I’ve said all this before. Cue idiotic responses of the “I don’t understand what you say so you love rapists” responses in 3… 2… 1… (That’s what I generally get for pointing out the obvious.)”
I’ve posted before about the tendency of some Whedon fans to dismiss those who disagree with them in such a condescending fashion. (The old “people who don’t adore Joss just aren’t intelligent enough to understand him” tactic.)It does harm to the reputation of your fandom and makes you look like a tedious bully. If you’re going to resort to that sort of tired tactic then this will be my very last response to you.
Your argument is by no means “obvious”. There is, obviously, ample room for debate on this topic. I’m not the only person who believes the Dolls are being raped. I don’t think you “love rapists”; please don’t lower the tone of this discussion with trite rejoinders. But I do think the definition of rape is sex wthout consent and I don’t believe any of the Dolls could be said to have legitimately consented to their treatment regardless of the “contract” (a ridiculous contrivance, as there can be no vaid contract to enslave youself) they may or may not have been coerced into signing. The evidence of the episodes shows that Sierra was forced into the Dollhouse and that Echo was, at the very least, an unwilling participant who saw no other options. That’s hardly consent, but that wasn’t really what I was primarily referring to. You can’t erase a person’s mind and then claim they have consented after the fact to subsequent treatment of their body. There is no justified way to “consent” to be a slave; coersion is implied.
At the end of the day, my problems with Dollhouse are twofold: philosophical and structural. Philosophicaly I disagree with Whedon’s apparent ideas about the self, and about slavery and free will and consent, and I find the show, oftentimes, simply repugnant because of that. But I grit my teeth through that stuff and continue watching. Structurally is where the real problems arise and it’s where I suspect you’ll find the low ratings culprit. The show seems not fully thought through, the technology is an embarrassment of convenience and contrivance that enables the writers to do whatever they want but makes it difficult at times to suspend disbelief, the cast has only very small pockets of interpersonal chemistry because the premise keeps the Dolls from relating to each other on anything but a perfunctory level, and not all the casting choices have been inspired–Tahmoh Penikett is simply plodding as Ballard. The lead character is by turns unengaging (Echo) or a risibly naive twit (Caroline) who I think audiences have a hard time connecting with or feelingsympathy for. The missions have been at times simply uninteresting and that’s a problem because they’re a big part of the structure of the show. Dushku, while she can act, isn’t the ideal choice as lead. There are times I thought her performance was great and other times I thought she was just playing “Standard Eliza Tough Girl” but the real problem just might be that she just isn’t enough of a draw on her own. This is her vehicle and people just don’t want to watch. Every episode, the stories and characters all seem to hit the exact same notes: Something Goes Wrong because the Dollhouse inexplicably has the worst security and quality control on Earth. Topher congratulates himself for being awesome, then explains in a frenzy about how the latest malfunction isn’t his fault because he’s awesome. Adelle serves tea to a client and acts the assertive, placating Britishly dry madame, while at the same time making veiled threats/snide rejoinders to Ballard/Topher/Langton. Echo goes on a mission, looks sexy, recovers a little piece of herself and makes a speech about how she wants to save everyone, the end. It just isn’t really hitting on all cylinders for me and it seems most other TV viewers agree. At the end of the day what I’m seeing is a show about Eliza Dushku as a sexy empty shell being abused every week with a smile on her face, and often being raped, with a cast of characters around her who barely have any chemistry to speak of, with not a single person to root for or even like in the entire bunch, all acting out stories that are essentially reheated Lifetime movies with plenty of plotholes thrown in. (The rich uncle just *walks out* of the Dollouse with a Doll last week? Really? The power blackout just magically turned Victor into the serial killer?) If they’re going to be giving us these missions of the week as the backone of the episodes they need to make them engaging on their own and they often aren’t. Add in the basic premise of erasing people and I can see why the show has struggled.
Cue arrogant responses of the “Well, most TV viewers just aren’t smart enough to understand Whedon’s genius then” variety in 3… 2… 1…
: I’ve posted before about the tendency of some Whedon fans to dismiss those who disagree with them in such a condescending fashion. (The old “people who don’t adore Joss just aren’t intelligent enough to understand him” tactic.)It does harm to the reputation of your fandom and makes you look like a tedious bully. If you’re going to resort to that sort of tired tactic then this will be my very last response to you.
Good, I hope it is, because I certainly can’t be bothered to read any more of it. There is nothing in anything I said, even the part you quoted, that can remotely be characterized as “people who don’t adore Joss just aren’t intelligent enough to understand him.”
That’s my major problem. I post what I think of the show, and I get responses like yours: People uninterested in what I’ve said so much as that I’ve suggested a show they don’t like might be good, who then strike out with inanely ridiculous accusations about what I’ve written, such as several people who have argued that I just love rape because I like Dollhouse (WTF?), to the “You dared say Dollhouse has some depth to it, therefore you’re a condescending elitist” stuff you’ve been posting.
How ironic that you should respond to the one sentence in my show that points out how tired I am of these kind of knee-jerk responses… by doing just that.
Squiggleslash, Caroline might have consented, but she had just been kidnapped and held against her will for two days. That wasn’t informed consent in the usual sense of the word.
Michael – I deliberately avoided Caroline there because we still haven’t really been given her full story at this point. Thus far, all we know is that she attacked Rossum, and was given what was apparently a choice between going to sleep for five years and being given a huge sum of money in return for the Dollhouse using her body, or being prosecuted for the attack.
It’s certainly consent as we know it, but that doesn’t make it right. Caroline certainly could have chosen to face the “consequences” for her “actions” (DeWitt’s quotes from Ep 1), and in some ways it’s a little like a prosecutor promising to drop the charges against someone if they sleep with him, which is similarly despicable but an action for which the word “rape” is inappropriate. What about a prostitute who needs the money to feed her heroin addiction? Is her john “raping” her, or is it another kind of crime altogether?
Like I said above, the fixation on the word “rape” and the fact people insist on using it is not helping much. The degree, actually, to which different dolls had control over the circumstances that lead to them working in the Dollhouse raises lots of questions by itself.
Caroline went there because they offered her a pretty good deal, and the consequences of saying no was apparently deserved punishment for something that she’d done. Madeline went there because they offered her, again, a pretty good deal, but she too was in a real sense under duress, with the death of her child likely clouding her judgment. Are these situations equal? Would Madeline regret her decision given her pre-Dollhouse mind coupled with some kind of memory of the roles she had been given? Is she likely to be angry at the Dollhouse or herself in hindsight?
I’m happy for people who live with the mindset that prostitution is not rape, i.e. the fact that it is called “prostitution” automatically means consent is involved.
That is not how the real world works. I’m sure there are many men (and people in general) out there, and here, who like to imagine that every single hooker they hired fully consented to living the live he or she is living. (I’m sure a lot of people also like to think that about porn.) It does take the edge of the guilt.
My typos were caused by how I’m shaking with anger.
I keep mentioning the Milgram Experiment but another set of experiments that seem relevant here are those that test the “Just World” pheonomenon.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon
[QUOTE]
One study gave women what appeared to be painful electric shocks while working on a difficult memory problem. Other women of broadly the same age and social group who observed the experiment appeared to blame the victim for her fate, praised the experiment, and rated her as being less physically attractive than did those who had seen her but not the experiment. [1]
In another study, female and male subjects were told two versions of a story about an interaction between a woman and a man. Both variations were exactly the same, except at the very end the man raped the woman in one and in the other he proposed marriage. In both conditions, both female and male subjects viewed the woman’s (identical) actions as inevitably leading to the (very different) results
[/QUOTE]
This article goes into more detail on the first of these experiments:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/09/a-just-world.html
Again, this is something that makes the different circumstances behind the different Doll’s internment into the Dollhouse all the more interesting.
“Caroline might have consented, but she had just been kidnapped and held against her will for two days. That wasn’t informed consent in the usual sense of the word.”
Not only that, but look at what we’ve been shown: Caroline snuck into a Rossum lab with her boyfriend and took some video. That was the extent of her “crime”. In retaliation, the security guard *shot her boyfriend dead* and then Rossum kidnapped Caroline and held her against her will. She signed a contract to get out of prosecution for…what? Breaking and entering? If anyone should have been arrested it was the guard for murdering her unarmed boyfriend with no just cause. Based on what has actually been shown so far (and yes, maybe there are more blanks yet to be filled in but we can only go on what we have seen thus far), Caroline committed no actual crime other than a misdemeanor breaking and entering and no actual legal authorities were involved. She was simply kidnapped by Rossum using the lab incident as a pretext, and then Adelle, our woman of conscience whom we’re supposed to believe isn’t a murdering whoremonger, gave Caroline the ultimatum to sign away her identity for slavery in the Dollhouse (while drinking tea, because she’s a classy murdering whoremonger.) On the surface it looks not quite as coerced as Sierra simply because Caroline was given the illusion of a choice rather than just being brutally taken. But in the end they are both slaves, and Adelle enslaved them. Which is all well and good–I think the Sopranos is awesome and I have no problem with bad guys being the focus of a drama. But the Dollhouse writers should have the courage to call a spade a spade, and every episode they don’t just has me–and I suspect lots and lots of other people–squirming in my chair and feeling annoyed and vaguely angry at the show.
Here’s something to think about for all those people talking about how “voluntary” the Dollhouse is for the Dolls: if it’s all voluntary, if they really did all “consent”, why is Echo so adamant about freeing the Dolls? Echo doesn’t only want to free herself, or herself and Victor and Sierra: she wants to free *all* of the Dolls. Because she knows that what’s happening there is wrong: in fact that’s what the entire show is *about*. The fact that this is wrong. The protagonist of the freaking show knows it’s wrong and is trying to stop it.
@Chaos – thanks for the reply, I hope you find this some where through the webs. If I am coming off as a neo-classical economist, then I am not being clear. My rooting for rational decisions is about having some kind of hope that we could do cultural studies of programming decisions without the inevitable answer from industry folks that we are completely naive/that they have intentionally distorted the flow of information to a degree where only approved insiders can do research.
So, I am not so much rooting for one model to win out, but for some identifiable trends to emerge so that we might make a new model. Frankly, I am pretty convinced that the position you take in 2a is correct, that folks cherry pick numbers and try to retroactively justify their decisions.
“No offense, but I don’t get why so many people don’t get it. A Doll can’t consent. A Doll has no free will. It’s rape”.
I tried to explain my thinking in my last two paragraphs, but essentially what I’m saying is that I have serious doubts whether a Doll equals a person. If a Doll does not have higher brain functions, and could not be called a person, then is that still rape? In a way, is having sex with a Doll akin to having sex with someone who is dead? In this case the body is still warm, but is anyone home? I think that this was very much in question in Season 1. In S2 it seems like Echo is special, different from the others, and that she has greater cognitive functioning then they do, but we still don’t know to what extent. And even if there IS an Echo that is intelligent and aware enough to be considered human, then is Echo actually a person? Or is “she” an amalgamation of personalities that mimics humanity, in the same way that an advanced computer would?
And if after questioning all this then we determine that she is a person, with a soul, then where did her soul come from? Or alternatively, is it possible to be human but not have a soul? Do souls even exist?
I think that these are all very important questions and at least most are necessary prerequisites to ask and answer before assuming that there is rape going on. Sex is certainly happening, but imo sex does not equal rape, especially with these many unknowns that are not yet answered.
“And as for the argument that the people signing up for the Dollhouse understood they would be used for sex when they signed the “contract”–well, even if you want to use that argument, we know Caroline was coerced into signing up and Sierra was outright kidnapped”.
It appears very possible that Caroline was coerced and that is indeed quite troubling. But I’ve learned never to assume, especially with a show by Joss. And my recollection, which could be flawed, is that in the first Episode that showed Caroline’s past (’Echoes’) then it seemed very much like she was coerced, but then I recall a later Episode in which she seemed much less combative then if that was actually the case. Regarding Caroline’s deal with the DH, then I am waiting for more information. That may lead you to label me as dumb, naive, or something similar, but that is honestly my position.
The woman who would be turned into Sierra certainly seems like she entered into the Dollhouse very much against her will. And that is even more troubling. We will hopefully know for sure with the next Episode.
But in both cases, whoever the women were before they went through the process and their personalities were extracted and their bodies were made into Dolls, their minds do not seem to be there now. How can you say that you care about those women when you don’t seem at all interested in THEM, only with what is going on with their shells?
“Rape is a taboo that crosses a psychological line in most cultures”.
You make some good points in that paragraph where you last responded to me, but again, the problem for me is that I’m not sold on the idea that the Dolls are actually people, with the ability to give or deny consent. Based on that, then I seriously question whether any of them can be raped.
“We would rather see someone murdered on film than raped. Don’t ask me why, that’s just how it is for most people”.
You’re right on that and it’s a good point. It boggles my mind that anyone would honestly believe that it’s better to be murdered than raped, but for at least some people then that would be their preference.
“As to the larger point of just focusing on sex in the Dollhouse, there are plenty of kinds of rape and in my opinion all the Dolls have been raped, even the ones who aren’t sent out to be whores”.
Okay. As information about what truly constitutes a Doll comes out, then I might agree with you, but for now I have serious reservations and don’t feel that we know enough to say.
“And I think the critics focus on rape so much beause the writers refuse to acknowledge that these acts are rape. There is, to me, a hint of intellectual cowardice in that, on the part of the writers. I think the critics just want the writers to own up to what they’re portraying here. The software designer, instead of being presented to us as a rapist, was presented as a guy we should feel sympathy for–even Echo felt sympathy for him, so much so that she returned to him so he could complete his rape of her. Ballard called him a predator I believe but he never once used the word RAPE–the writers never use that word to decribe the Dolls’ sex missions. Because they’re afraid to use the word, I think”.
Thanks for explaining your thinking to me. I can understand that for people who honestly believe that it is rape, then the way that the show addresses these issues could indeed be very frustrating.
EDIT after the fact:
The previous post was meant to reply to mark. Sorry for forgetting that.
“Thanks for explaining your thinking to me. I can understand that for people who honestly believe that it is rape, then the way that the show addresses these issues could indeed be very frustrating.”
Why can’t all Whedon fans be like you? Polite. Not combative or defensive or condescending. Thank you.
We can definitely agree to disagree on the rape issue, especially because I think you make a very good point re: what constitutes a Doll’s personhood or lack of it. On the one hand the show seems to be saying we are just information that can be erased or transferred, but on the other hand the whole theme of the show seems to be the idea that we all have a basic spark that is uniquely ours and which can never be erased–Echo said it herself in the first episode, in the “blank slate” line that has been quoted before: “Ever try to clean a slate? You always see what was there before.” I think Whedon doesn’t believe in souls but ironically I think through Echo he is making the point, intentionally or not, that we do have souls. Or maybe some people do and some don’t–maybe a soul has to be earned by our behavior, and Echo is earning one?
At the end of the day though, the Dollhouse tech is such a leap of faith type contrivance and the actual effect of it is intentionally contradictory–Echo retains some of herself, other Dolls don’t, Victor and Sierra seem to have feelings for each other even in their blank state–that I just don’t know for certain whether or not a wiped Doll really is just a piece of meat with no identity whatsoever, or whether they are still the person they were, just without an awareness of themselves. So I just go the simplest route and decide that they are all still the people they were regardless of how much of them has been wiped away. To me, Echo is Caroline–she has Caroline’s essence, soul, whatever you want to call it inside her, just not her memories or any aspect of her personality that is dependent specifically on those memories. So, yes, I believe Caroline is being repeatedly raped, as are the others.
Whedon hasn’t asserted that the Dollhouse tech completely wipes away a person’s identity, the show is in fact about the idea that maybe that assertion is incorrect. Keeping that in mind, I think my decision to see the Dolls as their true selves, with parts of them taken away but an indestructible core remaining, makes sense. And I also think that, if you were to posit this happening in the real world and you asked the average person on the street about it, they would most likely agree with me. If you said to a person, “If someone erased your mind, implanted a new set of memories and a new identity in your head and then sent you off to be a prostitute, would you say you had been raped?” I think in most cases they would answer yes.
@ Mark,
Thanks for the compliment, though I do have my bad days and I don’t think that I’m alone in my way of thinking. Perhaps you have been hanging out around the wrong websites and meeting the wrong Whedon fans?
Honestly though, it can sometimes be hard to attempt an in-depth and mature conversation on a lot of sites, especially with so many people yelling “_______” Sux! “You fools all deserve to see your show canceled” and so on. When I see other people posting and replying maturely, then I try to reply in kind.
As for our current conversation, I do agree that it seems best that we agree to disagree, at least until/unless new information comes along. As far as the “blank slate” idea goes, what sticks most in my mind was a conversation with Joss in which he explicitly stated that Echo is not Caroline. I don’t have the interview handy, but I believe that he even said that as Echo finds out more about Caroline, then there are certain aspects of her that she very much does not like. In the same way, the Dr Saunders character as played by Amy Acker believes herself to be different from whomever she had been before she became Whiskey and doesn’t want to be “restored” to her pre-Whiskey self.
I think that the show would actually have been more accessible and compelling if the reality is what you believe it to be. Where no matter how much the technology tries to erase a person’s soul, or uniqueness, then slowly their true self were to reassert itself naturally. For now at least, that doesn’t seem to me where Joss wants to take the idea. Perhaps what he has in mind is better, or maybe he made a major error in not taking the story down that route, we shall see.
As far as my take on Victor and Sierra goes, at least for now I believe that they are either given or possess “some” intelligence. There seems to be enough for them to have language and be able to paint and take showers and hold utensils, but I don’t know if that is any different from an animal trained to respond to verbal commands or use a litter box. And many animals do show affection for each other and even in unlikely scenarios where we sometimes hear of a mother cat adopting a puppy or a dog adopting a kitty and things like that. It would be nice to believe that what Victor and Sierra have is more than that, but again I don’t want to assume with this show if I can help it.
That’s an interesting example that you use at the end, I’ll give it some additional thought. (Though personally I would still object to the brainwashing more than anything else. But that’s just me).