Our Renew / Cancel Index predicts potential renewal or cancellation for scripted broadcast primetime shows for the 2010-11 season (results through October 11, 2009):
- Likely To Be Canceled By May, 2010
- Some Danger Of Being Canceled By May, 2010
- Likely to Be Renewed For The 2010-11 Season
| Program | Renew/ Cancel Index |
| Til Death (S), (F) | 0.28 |
| Brothers (F) | 0.31 |
| Dollhouse (F), (P) | 0.33 |
| Fringe | 0.77 |
| Bones (P) | 0.97 |
| Lie To Me (P) | 1.03 |
| Glee (P) | 1.11 |
| American Dad (P) | 1.23 |
| The Simpsons (P) | 1.43 |
| The Cleveland Show (P) | 1.52 |
| Family Guy (P) | 1.71 |
| House | 2.06 |
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The announcement yesterday by Fox that they will produce and air all 13 episodes of Dollhouse that were ordered for this season sounds to me like the death knell for the show. As Robert cogently advises, don’t buy the % DVR increase hype.
I think it’s probable that yesterday’s announcement will be followed in the next week or so by an announcement that Fox is removing Dollhouse from its Friday schedule for at least the November sweeps period, perhaps without an indication on when it will return. Fans will see the last 10 episodes sometime, but who knows when.
It’s highly unlikely that ‘Til Death or Brothers survives until next season as well. ‘Til Death’s producers (Sony) will have the episodes they need for syndication, and presumably won’t have an incentive to give the series away to Fox for nearly free again, and Brothers ratings are just plain awful. Still, because those are the only two open half hour slots till football is over, Fox is in a tricky situation if they want to pull just one of them early unless they double up on the other, which wouldn’t seem to increase the ratings either.
Even though I have Fringe in orange, I think it is still quite likely, but not certain, to be renewed.
This is a breakdown of Fox scripted shows and their renewal and cancellation prospects. Here are links to the other networks:
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Notes:
The Renew/Cancel Index is a show’s Season To Date adults 18-49 rating divided by its network’s Season to Date average 18-49 rating. If a show’s season to date 18-49 ratings average equalled its network’s 18-49 average, the show would have an Index of 1.00. Without special factors, scripted shows that were more than 10% below their network’s average are typically canceled by the end of the broadcast primetime season.
Factors that could cause a show to be renewed with well below average index:
- (F) -Fridays: Shows airing on Fridays have been renewed with significantly lower than average Indexes.
- (S) – Syndication: Shows nearing syndication (66-88 episodes), often have economic factors that trump ratings leading to renewal.
- (T) – Third Party: Shows that have a portion of their cost underwritten by a 3rd party can be renewed with substantially lower ratings.
- (P) – Produced by the network’s production company – For shows on the bubble, being produced by the network’s corporate production company can be a survival advantage. For real losers, it’s unlikely to help.
While I initially tried to designate shows with “plum” timeslots, I think it’s hard to make that call at this point in the season. It’s likely still a factor, but will have to be an “after the fact” call.
What’s the History of the Index and How Did It Do In the Past? Check out the results from the 2007-8 season and the 2008-9 season.
Nielsen TV Ratings Data: ©2009 The Nielsen Company. All Rights Reserved. All ratings used are Live+Same Day viewing.
I really hope Fringe gets renewed. It’s one of my top 5 favorite shows running right now. Plus, the last few episodes have been excellent.
I know this is a renew/cancel post, but please stop talking about this damn show already. I watch it every week on my own schedule, not on Fridays, and I find the show interesting and entertaining, but I am tired of hearing/seeing posts about this show already. Too much talk!
Wow, surprise surprise. Dollhouse was bad last year, and it’s still bad this year. Once again FOX messed up and kept the wrong show. Brothers and Til Death? Yea, THAT worked…..
FOX is just clueless.
Anyone with a BlackBerry who loves TV by the Numbers, join the TVBTN BBM group…lets get a good mobile forum going! Pin me (30B6A0A6) for the invite.
I get the theory behind pulling Dollhouse for sweeps but I’m stuck on one flaw to that, what does Fox have in the wings that’s going to do that much better? Repeats of House? Alternatively I suppose they could just switch the Friday and Saturday blocks – move Brothers, ‘Till Death and Dollhouse to Saturday and Cops and America’s Most Wanted to Friday that would probably produce better results and it would be interesting to see whether Dollhouse held up at a 1 on Saturday…
Elsewhere I still think Fringe plays out the rest of the season Thursday at 9 and that it should stay there next season. If the powers that be at Fox are willing to prop the show up financially (and from all reports they are) they may as well feed it to the wolves on Thursday rather than something they’d have to cancel that could perform better elsewhere.
Lie To Me is moving to Friday’s mid season and then it’ll probably be axed… unless its cheap and Fox are still in love with it or still holding the ’stability on Friday’ line. It should be taking off out of House but for whatever reason it isn’t.
Dan what show should they have kept last year?
@Dan: I didn’t watch Dollhouse last season, but I’ve started to watch it this season. I’m happy FOX renewed it and gave it a chance. That’s a much better situation than yanking it after 5-8 episodes a la NBC. TSCC got two seasons too. I’m glad FOX willing to take risks and give scifi a chance. I think it’s a shame when the networks don’t give shows a chance.
OK did anyone SERIOUSLY expect Dollhouse to get any more than these 13 episodes? The fact that they will air them is a plea to whedon fans not to terminate them with hate mail.
@Alex: Dan is probably a Terminator partisan. Which was an outside production barely getting better ratings at a multiple of DH’s cost. Frankly, neither should have been renewed – but TSCC definitely wasn’t the one to keep.
It is likely that Fox will air Glee & House repeats on Fridays. Human Target/Past Life too once those come online. Lie To Me costs too damn much (and was only getting, what, a 2.0 before the House lead-in?) to keep on Fridays, especially with how ratings are doing there across the dial.
I still think Fringe depends on 24/Human Target. If 24 doesn’t come back, and HT flops, Fringe is the action-est show around. If one or both return next year, the conversation gets awkward for Fringe.
I don’t think people really need to worry about Fringe too much. It has improved Fox Thursday from year to year, and I think Fox is happy with that. Not to mention I’m sure Fox wants to keep a good relationship with JJ Abrams.
Dollhouse will burn off the rest of it’s episodes but when is anyone’s guess. Do they wait till winter and burn them off during rerun season? Do they keep it on Fridays after sweeps? Do they pull an ABC move and wait till summer to burn them off? That is really the only question left about the fate of DH in my opinion.
I’m amazed the Till Death was even renewed after last year, so who knows what Fox is going to do with that, and Brothers could fall into that same odd circle as well.
I think it’s probable that heads might explode if Dollhouse gets a hail mary back 9 or a 3rd 13 ep season. It sounds to me like the S2 airing announcement has thrown some for a loop!
Does FOX have an option on “Smarter”?
Presumably, they wouldn’t bring back “Lyrics”, since Wayne Brady is doing “Let’s Make A Deal” on CBS daytime – but there is a precedent for a person working for two networks at once (good trivia question)
For a moment there I actually forgot about Terminator… it was lovely.
Tom as far as Lie To Me goes, Fox were very high on the show and it did and I imagine still does test through the roof. I think Fox will try and keep hold of it if they can and if that means a tester on Friday mid season then I suspect that’s what they’ll do.
As far as Fringe-24-Human Target goes I’ll say this – the chances of at least one of Human Target or 24 not picking up another season seems tiny to me and to be honest I’d be surprised if both of them weren’t back next year. Despite that I still think Fringe returns, although God knows how Fox would then fit everything plus new shows onto the schedule.
theoacme, I’m sure Wayne Brady’s contract with CBS wouldn’t allow him to do another game show on a different network. But then again things are tricky when it comes to Primetime vs Daytime. But I still don’t see that happening either way.
what does it say about americans that most of the shows not in danger are cartoons?
that they are really funny cartoons!
@Tom
Ya think???
~Lanie~
Ok, clear something up for me.
Fringe and Castle are my favs. So I notice that both are .77 on the renew/cancel scale. Why is Castle marked red while Fringe is only in the orange? It is because they are different networks?
Yes different Networks, and different factors involved.
Ok, so why is Fringe not in endanger and your note even says likely to be renewed? What’s special about it?
Fringe is doing better than what Fox had in its place last year, so that’s a point in its favor, and probably why it’s not red. We’ll see what happens the rest of the season, but I’m not sure that its enough in its favor to save it.
Becki, it’s a bit of a judgement call by me and their fates are not so far apart.
Fringe is on a night in which Fox has had little success in the fall in the past, and its in what’s likely the *most* brutal timeslot of the week. Still, it’s not entirely safe.
Castle follows one of ABC’s bigger shows, in a timeslot that’s *far* less competitive than Fringe’s, with only a single scripted broadcast competitor. Still, it’s not far from being “orange” and my guess is if it remains stable (which is a reasonable guess), as ABC’s average falls (which is nearly certain based on even the data we already have) it will be “orange” before too long.
Fringe is possibly on the bubble, which means that it’s likely to be fine until May when the Networks decide what to air next year. The index is based on the Networks average 18-49 Demo rating for scripted shows. A 1.0 would represent the Network total average for scripted shows. fringes .77 means that Fringe is getting 77% of the networks average 18-49 viewers, which isn’t good, but also isn’t horrible. Other things to take into consideration is the fact that Fox is doing better on Thursdays this year compared to last year. So that works in Fringes favor. Finally (and this may be the smallest factor in the equation) Fringe is a JJ Abrams show, and the networks seem to love him. Fox may be inclined to keep Fringe with mediocre ratings so they can keep a good relationship with him.
Remember, Fringe has a Full Season order too, not 13 episodes. FOX isn’t going to arbitrarily cancel the show because of that, they’ll likely try to save it first in some fashion. Probably, they’ll move it to an “easier” night.
However, if FOX moves Fringe to Fridays, kiss it goodbye. They’re giving it the axe, you can count on it. They just won’t make it official until the Spring.
“I know this is a renew/cancel post, but please stop talking about this damn show already.”
I think the main reason this show keeps getting brought up is that for a site that is mainly about observing ratings for TV shows and probably have a pretty strong method/system for figuring out which shows are guaranteed to be cancelled, this show is contradicting every single bit of it. I LOVE Dollhouse but ratings wise, it should have gotten cancelled after the first episode, midway thru the first season, at the end of the first season and three episodes into this season and look, the thing is still going! Any time any desperate weeping fanboy is staring at the abysmal ratings for their much beloved show that has a shot in hell of getting renewed, they will hold onto the memory of dollhouse and mister, they will hope! The posters probably find it fun trying to figure all this out, and maybe one other thought on why this show keeps getting brought up……maybe they like it!
Fringe is doing better than Kitchen Nightmares did at that time, but what about Hell’s Kitchen? Wasn’t Hell’s Kitchen pulling in like 3.5-4.0 at Thursday at 9:00 last season? And it’s obvious which show is cheaper.
I don’t think there’s really any way to spin Fringe’s numbers as particularly good. Fringe’s hope is that Lie to Me goes down and Fringe gets the post-House slot instead, and then hope it does better there.
@Leo, you suck. Looking down on cartoons makes me sick. It’s a creative medium, and those shows are funnier than almost anything else on Television.
So Bill, when Dollhouse gets season 3 – what are you going to do as penance?
LOL
You said that last year. Guess what, you were wrong. I don’t blame you, everybody was. When talking about Dollhouse, I don’t take nothing for certain.
Tommy: Brad Lachman Productions produced “Lyrics”, and Fremantle Media produces “Lets Make A Deal” – so I’d say it’s slightly possible, but not enough to bet more than a fiver on…
…and the precedent I was referring to was a VP and anchor of a network, and a host of a show on another – would anyone like to sign in, please?
Fringe was a top 20, 18-49 show last year, airing Tuesday 9pm. No doubt it’ll do better.
The Mentalist is down, remember when everyone thought it was the next big thing, moving to Thursday has slowed the grow of both shows.
L
TM is getting high 2’s, Fringe getting low 2’s. Either way if you switched the 2 shows, the numbers don’t really change overall, someone’s going to get killed Thursday’s.
Grey’s had 2 season’s behind DH, before the swtich.
Doesn’t reality tend to be short-term. Remember Moment of Truth, no long term money.
You folks don’t pay me to be timid.
Hey, wait….
Swap “Fringe” and “Lie to Me”! That would probally boost both of the show’s ratings! But I have a question, why is “Bones” already renewed, when it gets lower ratings (viewers AND 18-49) than some of Fox’s other shows?
You just couldn’t resist it, could you?
American Dad moves to an earlier timeslot in the new year, unfortunately that might spell the end of it.
“Looking down on cartoons makes me sick. It’s a creative medium, and those shows are funnier than almost anything else on Television”
That’s the most damning indictment of American scripted comedy I’ve ever read.
Sure, The Simpsons is back on form this season, and most of last. Family Guy is getting very dull, The Cleveland Show is ludicrous and not even slightly amusing. American Dad is, at best, hit and miss.
I’m a big fan of animated comedy, but none of those shows is a patch on South Park. And this season has been good for live action comedy, if you ask me.
Community, Cougar Town, Big Bang Theory and Modern Family are all good for different reasons. This is the first year since Friends ended I think you can say something positive about live action comedy.
I mean, seriously, there were times last year when House was the funniest show on US TV.
Everything in green even the struggling Fringe (which is holding up against Grey’s, CSI and Office) is doing well and should be renewed. Dollhouse will run all 13 episodes as FOX stated however it will be gone after that. Its likely the same with the struggling Brothers, but Til Death will air all 22 episodes until May. I really wish FOX would air the remaining 10 Season 3 episodes but for some reason they wont.
FOX is pretty much stable save for Friday. So I guess the reason they are patient with the low Fridays because they perform all week (even Saturdays!) so they could afford to do so.
forg – thats true, and they made a commitment to renew 2 low rated series (Til Death, Dollhouse) and air them on a low rated night. In Dollhouse’s case, FOX has stated they will still air all episodes produced, while Til Death was just renewed for syndication. But they are in good enough shape.
@Dan:
Probably so syndication can get a better deal: rerun episodes AND original never-before-seen episodes? An amazing deal for them.
“I think it’s probable that heads might explode if Dollhouse gets a hail mary back 9 or a 3rd 13 ep season. It sounds to me like the S2 airing announcement has thrown some for a loop!”
It always happens–every Dollhouse thread is eventually hijacked by the Lovers.
I asked this in the other post’s comments, but figured I’d ask again in this updated post. It sounded like you were saying Lie to Me may get a post-Idol slot again in the spring. Is that the speculation? Or, do you think it likely to move to Fridays midseason as some are suggesting? For Fox, and considering what it’s up against, I think its ratings have been fairly good. (I’m biased, of course, but even so.
Obviously people expected it to retain more of it’s lead-in, but, again, I think it’s done respectably well. What gets me is Fox’s spring sched seems pretty tight. Not sure where it’s gonna fit in. Thoughts?
At the moment there is no room for Lie to Me:
http://www.fox.com/programming/fox10.php
But Dollhouse is already pretty much confirmed canceled. The way I see it is Fox will make a decision about whether they care more about Lie to Me or Past Life. One will end up on Friday, the other behind Idol. Considering the way Lie to Me tests, I would put my money on Lie to Me.
Julia said:
“But Dollhouse is already pretty much confirmed canceled”.
When was that?
AO the announcement about Fox airing all 13 order episodes pretty much spells out the fate of the show. They basically said they will air the 13 episode that they have already paid for, and that they will most likely pull it during sweeps week. We don’t even know when they will air the remaining episodes. Basically they stated that they plan to burn off the leftovers and then it’s done, but not in so many words.
Tommy,
That’s certainly one possibility based on that statement and one way to interpret what was said, but I don’t think that the decision has been made yet.
Why would Fox be making new promos, sending out review screeners of upcoming episodes and committing to air it on the 30th (isn’t that the start of Sweeps?) if they had already decided that it’s done?
Heradite, mid-season schedules in October are not worth the Internet bits used to transmit them and are very subject to change.
I haven’t seen a commitment to air it on the 30th, and you could be right. But it does beg the question: Why would they issue such a statement if it’s future wasn’t already known?
I think I would like the actual words – nuke it from orbit; it’s the only way to be sure. So far it’s been a bughunt – you zig, Dollhouse zags.
AO, the “November” sweeps period is in fact October 29 – November 25, 2009.
I acknowledge, and I hope it was clear in the post, that my guess about Fox pulling Dollhouse for the sweeps period is a guess. I know of no schedule announcement of fact though.
Where did you see that has Fox committed to air Dollhouse on October 30? That would be news to me.
buffy, they wouldn’t come right out and say they are canceling it with so many episodes to burn off. Maybe if there were only 3 or 4 left, but they still have what 10 Episodes in the can. A formal cancellation (if that even happens) would sink the ratings to nothing fast. And they don’t have very far to go down before the ratings are nothing.
buffywrestling, hey, I’ve been wrong before, but one thing I can guarantee, there will never be an announcement from Fox that the show has been canceled. Who knows what happens between now and when the 2010-11 schedule is laid out in May as far as scheduling of the remaining 10 episodes, but the only “news” will be “Here’s our 2010-11 schedule” and Dollhouse won’t be on it.
I mean, TSCC hasn’t been announced as canceled yet. It could still be on the midseason schedule, right?
No, I know networks never formally cancel anything; I just wanted to quote Aliens. And the only dates I can think of so far are the ones in Mo Ryans’s Dollhouse article:
Oct. 30
“The Public Eye”
Nov. 6
“The Left Hand”
Nov. 13
“Meet Jane Doe”
Nov. 20
“A Love Supreme”
But I don’t know who she talked to to pick those up. I would think that’s completely subject to change.
Regarding Dh, it looks like it’s over after these 13, but the announcement seemed to a little more… optimistic than I’d have expected if the decision was made. (At this point, I’d want to be talking expectations down a bit more, so I don’t face boycotts from a thousand angry fans, of whom a hundred are active bloggers and send the whole internet down on my ass.) In light of that, I expect the decision’s not made yet, and it entirely depends on how the show does from here out.
Of course, it’s more likely that the show drifts downhill the rest of the season, and the 13 is it, but _if_ it doesn’t do any worse (and sometimes a bit better) over the remainder of the season, it’s just possible they could get a back-9 order with no chance of renewal.
Cheaper than renewing for another season of 13, and (unlike a typical full-season renewal) the end date is known a full 9 episodes ahead, the story arcs could be wrought to a finish with a relatively successful finale, ratings-wise.
And even though I’m sure all the Whedonites would be disappointed to see it end “so soon”, I can’t imagine even the most rabid of fans characterizing that as a repeat of the Firefly thing, so between the PR value and advertising during a 2-hour finale with higher ratings, _maybe_ it could make sense. At least as much sense as the renewal for this season, right?
Tommy,
I haven’t yet found any specific statement where they guaranteed that they would air the next two Episodes on the 23rd and 30th. It was in their promotion for DH, beginning at the end of the last episode, where it specifically said Summer Glau would be there in 3 weeks. Promos are absolutely not guarantees, but they made the extra effort to advertise not just the 4th Episode in 2 weeks but also the 5th one (with Glau) in 3 weeks.
The wording of the statement indicated to me that Fox honestly isn’t sure what they are going to do with Dollhouse and probably want to give it these two last Episodes before making a final decision. I would guess that they are hoping that Glau will help to increase the numbers (and they’re probably a teeny tiny bit encouraged that the numbers went up for Ep 3), but aren’t sure that she will and are serving notice to all the fans that removing it during November and then burning it off later is a very real possibility.
Perhaps you are all right that the decision has already been made, but I’m going to take the statement at face value and so that’s not my interpretation.
@ Bill,
Thanks for the confirmation on the Sweeps Period!
You definitely did qualify your statement that Fox has not yet committed to pulling it from November. I haven’t been around today and just checked in and was wondering if I had missed a Fox announcement. Again, I can definitely see where yesterday’s statement can lead people to believe that the decision has already been made, I just genuinely don’t think that it has.
I had thought that there was a Fox commitment to air it on October 30, but haven’t yet found what I was thinking of. I shall keep looking. My apologies for any confusion.
Found it! http://spoilertv.blogspot.com/2009/10/dollhouse-episode-205-public-eye-press.html
ECHO RACES TO STOP THE DOLLHOUSE’S SECRETS FROM BEING EXPOSED ON “DOLLHOUSE” FRIDAY, OCTOBER 30, ON FOX
Summer Glau (“Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles”) Joins the Cast in a Recurring Role
Alexis Denisof and Keith Carradine Guest-Star
Echo is sent to stop Senator Daniel Perrin (guest star Alexis Denisof) before he can expose the Dollhouse’s secrets. Adelle and Topher travel to the Washington, DC, Dollhouse where they meet its genius programmer, Bennett Halverson (Summer Glau), a woman with a mysterious past connection to Echo in the “The Public Eye” episode of DOLLHOUSE airing Friday, Oct. 30 (9:00-10:00 PM ET/PT) on FOX. (DOL-205) (TV-14 D, L, S, V)
Cast: Eliza Dushku as Echo; Tahmoh Penikett as Paul Ballard; Olivia Williams as Adelle DeWitt; Harry Lennix as Boyd Langton; Fran Kranz as Topher Brink; Enver Gjokaj as Victor; Dichen Lachman as Sierra
Guest Cast: Summer Glau as Bennett Halverson; Miracle Laurie as Madeline/November; Keith Carradine as Matthew Harding; Alexis Denisof as Senator Daniel Perrin; Stacey Scowley as Cindy Perrin; Nelson Franklin as Burt Styne; Maurissa Tancharoen as Kilo
Source: FOX
@ Ben,
For the most part I agree with you, though I think that the ratings will at least remain stable (assuming that it stays in it’s time slot). Though I am a tad concerned with the week off for MLB.
“I can’t imagine even the most rabid of fans characterizing that as a repeat of the Firefly thing”.
Weeeeeell, actually there are at least a few that would. As I said in (one of) yesterdays Dollhouse threads, there is no monolithic Whedon fanbase, and there are some who don’t seem to pay attention or understand and so any cancelation would be labeled a repeat of Firefly. For my part, just the fact that they gave it a 2nd Season automatically eliminated even the possibility of any Firefly comparisons and I think that’s true of most fans. But there are always at least a few who would disagree.
Thanks very much buffywrestling!
Regarding the alleged Oct. 30 episode, there was a press-release posted on SpoilerTV, supposedly official. That might be it.
http://spoilertv.blogspot.com/2009/10/dollhouse-episode-205-public-eye-press.html
That said, I’m really excited about the rest of the season. Also having the chance to have a series finale episode for any show is a great thing for the fans by bringing closure. Joss will be writing a finale episode The 13th Hour, and just leave a few doors open (threads hanging), to leave in room for miracles or glitches in the Matrix
. ‘Course that miracle would be a fairly significant rise in ratings.
Speculating the quality and story-arcs for coming episodes I don’t think there will dips below 1.0. I predict stable ratings with little raises here and there. It would seem a very difficult task to vastly exceed the numbers of the season premier.
Hah, I take too long to write a post. Beat me to it buffy.
You don’t need to rely on Spoiler TV for the schedule stuff, you can obsess over the FOX schedule officially from FOX (complete with the episode blurbs cited above) here:
http://foxflash.com/div.php/main/page?aID=1z4
The “Summer Glau Joins the cast” episode is indeed still on the official schedule there. I don’t think FOX has to publicly announce any schedule changes weeks before the happen, but typically changes are announced at least a week in advance.
Oh cool!! Thanks Robert.
@ people upset because of the cartoon comment.
I watched cartoons when I was a child. I am no longer a child.
Now I dont mind cartoons geared for adults, there have been some good ones. But when 4 cartoons dominate primetime viewing… and doing better than most tv shows that are not cartoons. I feel as tho this reflects negatively on americans in general.
We wonder why people outside the US think we are uneducated …
People will always think cartoons are for children with short attention spans. It doesnt matter if you say they are for adults and you put them on at night.
“@Leo, you suck. Looking down on cartoons makes me sick. It’s a creative medium, and those shows are funnier than almost anything else on Television.” johnthemon
Also thank you for proving my point with your reply.
They already promoted the Summer episode after last weeks dollhouse. I dont think they would not show ii in 3(2) weeks after the promotion would they?
The way they promoted it 3 weeks before the airing(and before they promoted the next episode in 2 weeks) makes me think … they are saying to themselves … please for the love of … please Summer bring us some ratings.
Sorry Leo, but you’re incredibly ignorant. You are wrong.
The Venture Brothers has some of the best callbacks & mythology I’ve seen in a TV show that’s not Lost. My opinion, of course.
Alex says:
“Lie To Me is moving to Friday’s mid season and then it’ll probably be axed… unless its cheap and Fox are still in love with it or still holding the ’stability on Friday’ line. It should be taking off out of House but for whatever reason it isn’t.”
Again, whence the hortatory lingo?
Wow Fringe is so gonna get a 3rd season! That thursday timeslot is killing the show
FOX might move it to Fridays if the show gets a third season.
It’s pathetic how people who run this website thinks that they are always sure. You’re obsessing over Dollhouse way too much — take a deep breath and calm down.
This website said Dollhouse was definitely doomed for the fall…but look it got picked up.
Anon, they aren’t obsessed with Dollhouse…when will people realize this…it’s all about the NUMBERS! After all the site is called TvbytheNumbers.com And Based on DH’s ratings it should have been canceled. They aren’t rooting for the show to get canceled. What they were saying based on how other seasons have panned out it should have been. It’s not meant to offend the fans of the show. Predicting shows renewals and cancellations isn’t an exact science, but it’s a good way to get a good picture of how things will shake out. So no need to get upset at them because they are calling it how it is….based solely on the shows ratings.
Leo: I have five names for you, to demonstrate that animation is not just for children:
Hayao Miyazaki
Brad Bird (see Pixar)
Chuck Jones
Nick Park
Amalloc / Sambakza
But I agree, Seth MacFarlane does not deserve to be on this list – but Nielsen’s list is an entirely different one than mine
“I watched cartoons when I was a child. I am no longer a child.”
There are pleny of people out there who think science fiction is for children as well, Leo, and would laugh you out of the room if you told them you liked Dollhouse, or even worse, Buffy. If you want to go around measuring intelligence by people’s TV watching habits, I have a bridge I want to sell you. As for what people outside the USA think of the USA–honestly, *no one* in the USA cares, including me.
So let me summarize:
“Dollhouse” is done for, no doubt about that. I agree the press release is quite telling.
“Fringe” will probably be sent to Fridays to die. No official word about that, I know, but most people here seem to think so.
“Lie to Me” may or may not get a third season, but right now it doesn’t look likely.
Does that about cover it?
If so……wow, I guess I’ll take a break from TV in general. I can accept “Dollhouse” ending, but “Fringe”? No way. How could they do this to this awesome show? Moving it to Thursdays and then (probably) kill it off via a Friday timeslot. It did so well for FOX last season.
Mark, “As for what people outside the USA think of the USA–honestly, *no one* in the USA cares, including me.”
Not wishing to get too off subject but it’s that kind of thinking that leads to thousands of dead Americans and non-Americans in places like Iraq.
Sooo check this out you dollhouse haters. Fox says they WILL air all 13. They may pull it briefly during november sweeps but it will be back and all 13 will air.
http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/10/fox-we-will-air-all-13-dollhouse-episodes.html
I have to say, the announcement of “we will air all episodes” tended to catch fans somewhat flat footed. I don’t know when that was ever in doubt. Fox has committed over the past few years to show what has been paid for if they can.
But that doesn’t mean in the spot or timing people associate with it, and it means nothing to “it’ll stay on right now”
The commitment to “Sit Down, Shut Up” was upheld.. except the show was moved to midnights on Saturday.
Now, I don’t think Dollhouse is moving into that slot, but let’s be realistic, on this site the talk is not about “will all the episodes air” but is more along: will this show continue beyond this season? And, “will it keep it’s current spot?”
Pre-listings in trades and online (like TV Guide, etc.) They are sent weeks in advance and don’t tell you anything about whether or not a program will air at that time. Anything from a presidential press conference to a cancellation can bump something. You can find that all sources had the synopsis and ad sheet from NBC for Southland… and it never aired. So, don’t take that as confirmation of much.
Dollhouse ratings went up, but up straight to the minimum bar. That should say about all that needs to be said.
“Not wishing to get too off subject but it’s that kind of thinking that leads to thousands of dead Americans and non-Americans in places like Iraq.”
US foreign policy and US tastes in TV viewing are different subjects, kind of like how quantum physics and what I had for breakfast today are different subjects. I was obviously talking about television, not politics. I don’t care what someone from, say, England thinks about the fact that I watch the Simpsons. I *obviously* wasn’t referring to US foreign policy and I really don’t see the need to bring up “thousands of dead Americans” in this thread.
With 24 coming into play come January, either Fringe or Lie To Me need to step down and move to Friday. Sadly, the ratings are what they are, and Fringe will probably have to take the hit. Fox’s logic will consist of pairing it with the remaining episodes of Dollhouse and that it be great for both shows, but it will probably just kill them both.
Fox airing 24 on Thursdays would be interesting as the show is on it’s last couple seasons anyway and it will pull good demos regardless, and this would allow Lie To Me to continue to grow on House’s lead-in.
So if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it’s still not a duck? DVR numbers? Doesn’t mean anything. Airing annoucement? Doesn’t mean anything. Promos & offical Press release from Fox? Doesn’t mean anything. Why doesn’t mean anything? Because it goes against the numbers! Numbers, damn it! They aren’t influenced by other factors; they don’t LIE! Cue “It’s a ratings site; not a fansite, duh-head.”
No, seriously this show should be dead. I’m just not used to good news.
They seriously need to move Fringe behind House again. It performed very well there last year and did better than Lie to Me is currently doing. Lie to Me needs to be moved elsewhere. I think it’d be a better fit behind Bones but I’m not sure it could hold up to that competition as well as Fringe.
thirdsaint, last year House/Fringe was on Tuesday. Fringe faced different competition than it would on Monday. There’s nothing that suggests it would do any better than Lie to Me is doing right now.
So there were 15 episodes of Firefly produced.
Looks like Dollhouse ends with 26 episodes.
That’s 41 hours of low-rated Non-Buffyverse television from Joss Whedon.
Can you say “One Hit Wonder”?
I thought that you could.
good riddance, flophouse has outstayed its welcome.
Can you say “One Hit Wonder”?
Angel had five seasons (I rate that as being successful), Firefly is very successful on DVD and Dr. Horrible won an Emmy. So… nope.
@ leo (& mark)
As a side note, they do watch the Simpsons outside of the US. I lived in France for a few months, and it definitely came on — although sometimes they changed the place names. I know this is a TV-based site, but the Triplettes de Belleville did well in France (and the director, who specializes in animation is well regarded).
And of course, one only need mention Japan, to note that animated television is watched by adults outside of the US.
Certainly, its at the viewer’s discretion to watch what they want to watch. What I think is a fundamental strength and weakness of animation is that it tends to be less bound by things such as cost and physical laws. This can either lead to rather innovative story writing, if used correctly, or rather lazy story writing. The rest is up to the writers (and directors).
dollhouse is a really good show, and elize REALLY improved her performance on the show this season!! if we see it ends with 26 or 78 episodes, joss said we will be satisfied anyway!
“Angel had five seasons (I rate that as being successful), Firefly is very successful on DVD and Dr. Horrible won an Emmy. So… nope.”
Angel is a Buffyverse show–it’s just an extension of BTVS. And it barely lasted 5 seasons, and was never a dominant show, even on the WB.
Firefly’s DVD sales are irrelevant to what I was talking about–and not very impressive at all. It’s no True Blood, that’s for damn sure. 20th barely made their money back on it. Universal proved the franchise was a flop in any medium, by making Serenity.
Whedon had one modest weblet hit, that was in creative and ratings decline for much of its run. He had one minor spinoff success of that hit, which counts only as an extension of it. Firefly was a flop. Serenity was a flop. Dollhouse is a flop.
One. Hit. Wonder.
Eat it, Browncoats.
Buffywrestling just to go through this:
>So if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it’s still not a duck? DVR numbers? Doesn’t mean anything. Airing annoucement? Doesn’t mean anything. Promos & offical Press release from Fox? Doesn’t mean anything. Why doesn’t mean anything? Because it goes against the numbers! Numbers, damn it! They aren’t influenced by other factors; they don’t LIE! Cue “It’s a ratings site; not a fansite, duh-head.”<
(1) DVR numbers generally have never meant anything. I mean, it's a great idea, but for the most part, they don't. That may change, but there is a lot of debate on what they mean to advertisers. Advertisers argue they mean very little because people just zip through the commercials.
(2) Promos and press releases have never meant anything. If they did, we'd be talking about how great Bionic Woman is, touting how Southland is the next new "IT" drama for NBC, etc. Promos & press releases are done for spin and image control, and always have been. Always will be. They can be used to announce pickups (example: Commitment to 2 more seasons of Bones, contract inked!) or just to say "we like X".
(3) The only thing that ever means anything is the value to the network and affiliates.
And sometimes that goes beyond numbers. Look at Leno. His numbers have been not bad this year, and we can discuss that on this site. But the fact is, the damage to "The Tonight Show" is significant from him leaving, and network affiliates have a significant drop in their nightly news ratings. Those things hurt affiliate opportunities for revenue.
Dollhouse fans who feel "guaranteed" the show will air all of it's eps in the current spot through sweeps need to rethink. If the ratings go up, that certainly is possible. But the show in not invincible. What I said before still applies: if this slides below it's previous lows, the hook can come right out. Because there are other programming opportunities in it's spot.
April, how is this defacto cancellation of Dollhouse anything other than the final victory of the ‘Dollhouse Haters’?
It’s a dead show walking. Has been for a while, and FOX just all but confirmed it. Whedon is writing the 13th ep as a finale.
If it got a back 9 and then got canceled, that would still be defeat for the Whedonites. You keep lowering your standards for victory, and Whedon keeps effortlessly limboing under them.
He can always go back to comics.
“Whedon had one modest weblet hit, that was in creative and ratings decline for much of its run. He had one minor spinoff success of that hit, which counts only as an extension of it.”
I Dr. H in its entirety, after it’s initial airing. However, as I understood it, it had two webisodes. I’m just curious where you got a trend of “creative and ratings decline for much of its run.” I wasn’t even aware they had ratings for Dr. H. I’m also not sure what the “spinoff success” is. Maybe we’re thinking of a different web program?
By your universe logic, does that make Rodenberry a one-hit wonder? JJ Abrams a two-hit television wonder (Felicity + the Alias/Lost/Fringe-verse)?
“I saw Dr. H in its entirety” <- should read the first sentence of paragraph 2.
Somebody’s getting defensive in the face of good news
Don’t worry, you’re not alone. Everyone is playing defense.
pisher – quite. Indeed, if it got a back nine, then a third season, then a back nine for that, then a fourth season, then a back nine, and so on until the 27th season, after which it’s canceled, it would still be a defeat for the Whedonites!
(You know though, if I were Kevin Reilly, I’d be tempted to renew Dollhouse even with a 0.5, just to keep the wars going on. Also I’d say something outrageous about T:SCC, along the lines of “Yeah, we though about bringing it back, but we prefer Dollhouse”, or “It was an interesting show, but let’s be honest, ultimately it went to crap in the second season”, or “Well, personally, I liked Riley, and I never did like the misogynist comments about her weight from jerks who claimed to be fans of the show.” And I’d bring back Futurama. Because I like Futurama.)
… and, as a third post, one-hit wonder is fine by me.
While I know of a few prolific and well-rated television show creators — Aaron Spelling, Dick Wolf, David E. Kelley, and Chuck Barris. Few of their shows actually interest me. We’ll have to see how Ryan Murphy does…
(Oh yes, and also I’d bring back Firefly… but cancel it after one episode, which I’d precede with a sports game I’d know is going to over-run, so everyone would only get to watch the last five minutes, and it wouldn’t even be the first episode of the new season. Mwuhahahah!)
The way I see it Dollhouse is fairly cheap to make. There really aren’t any special effects in the show at all. It’s all old-school pretty lights scifi. And the writing and acting is incredibly good. Fox should see about selling the series to USA networks to be shown on SciFi. At the least FOX should move Dollhouse to Tuesday nights. So far this fall on Tuesdays I’ve been watching NetFlix and DVR saves as there’s nothing on that interests me, the typical SciFi middle-age male, you know one of the prime demographics…
Fox has FX which wouldn’t be a bad home for Dollhouse. The question is whether FX would take it as many would say the ratings are already sub-cable anyway.
Wow, pisher, you’re amazing… you really are…
He meant “netlet” I believe as he was referring to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Angel lasted 5 seasons and on network television that’s impressive. It had an uptick in ratings in the 5th season and mostly died as a result of a likely increase in budget (6th season would have called for new contracts, etc) and a different vampire pilot in the works (dark shadows remake that never happened)
Firefly sold very very well for FOX. Serenity was a box office flop, but has shown massive legs on video/dvd. There was a reason it was one of Universals first HD releases and why they’ve milked it with multiple editions. Dr. Horrible was cute but hardly a major financial success. To date Dollhouse is his least impressive show and definitely most deserving of a cancelation…
Watch all the first season of Dollhouse and then rent the 4th disc that has the unaired ep on it. I wouldn’t be surprised if that is this season’s 13th ep. It’s a masterpiece of SciFi. I find most people who don’t like Whedon’s stuff just don’t like SciFi in general. Same way I can’t stand Spelling’s work, sure it’s a masterpiece of soap opera but I hate soap operas in general so I’ll always find something wrong with his work.
“Watch all the first season of Dollhouse and then rent the 4th disc that has the unaired ep on it. I wouldn’t be surprised if that is this season’s 13th ep. It’s a masterpiece of SciFi.”
Revisiting the Epitaph One future would be cool–always nice to see Felicia Day. And she’s a character I can, y’know, actually *like*. Maybe the show should leap forward into the future, make the Epitaph world the ongoing focus, and just show how we got there in occasional flasbacks. I’d trade most of the current cast and setup for Felicia and non-Doll Victor and Sierra fighting in the future.
yeah fox should have kept tscc for a lead in to dollhouse, and “really” tried to make a fri nite scifi nite.
I really thought dollhouse was going to change their story to the future, but I guess not. it is a little better but not much.
even so, the neilsen viewers had already bailed on this show [in S-1] and with 2 really bad comedys as a leadin it was doomed from the start of S-2.
all of fox shows are doing worse this year in demos except house
Can’t say I’m too sad, the show is not very good quality in my opinion.
Chris, I think fans are choosing to believe that they will get to see all the episodes because the head of FOX scheduling said they are airing all the episodes. If you choose not to believe him, that’s cool.
My bet is that the season/series finale of the show will be called “Epitaph Two” or possibly even “Epitaph Three”.
I suspect (if the show had gone on for longer) that the intention was to run parallel story lines during the main story arc and the future story arc so that would converge nicely by the last of the Epitaph episodes. Subsequent stories could move forward from there.
It is possible that such convergence will happen by the end of this season (either intentionally or not). My hesitation on whether the finale would be 2 or 3, but whether they might decide to air an intermediary future episode before season’s end.
For some reason, 3 episodes sounds like a good number of episodes to reach convergence. It provides a classic play-like quality to it.
———————–
Not that I think it will go this way, but one mind-trip they could pull using the Epitaph terminology is to provide an alternate future, using the Epitaph series as a type of “what if” scenarios. This allows the “one” to represent version one as opposed to part one.
———————–
All the above has been speculation about why that 13th episode was called Epitaph One as you might imagine.
More evidence that Fox will not be airing Past Life post Idol. Past Life’s order was just cut to 7.
Buffywrestling:
.Chris, I think fans are choosing to believe that they will get to see all the episodes because the head of FOX scheduling said they are airing all the episodes. If you choose not to believe him, that’s cool.<
No offense taken, and none meant, but please re-read what I have said. I have not contended the show will never air. In fact, if you look repeatedly at what I've said, I am telling you it is NOT guaranteed the timespot it is in, or that it will run the way you see it now. After all, Fox committed to "Sit Down, Shut Up" as I pointed out as a reference, and will air every single committed episode.. except it's airing at midnight on Saturdays.
If Dollhouse ratings fall, every episode will still air. It just won't air in sweeps week and it'll get burned off either quickly or pulled to be put back in later.
I -like- Dollhouse. I have rooted for the show. But I am not oblivious to what goes on. The show had a need to get an uptick in the ratings for a hold, and it got it.
But if the ratings fall below it's low level, do you think there is any chance it'd run during sweeps? I can guarantee you NO.
My advice to Dollhouse fans is the same now as it was before: if you want to see the show air in any sort of sense that it stays put on the schedule or at least aired in a way that it's not scattered out to burn off, you still need to tune in.
Because they will commit to airing every episode. That doesn't mean it stays on the schedule NOW instead of being added back in or burned off later.
Take that to the bank.
That’s very good advice, chris; ta for that. I’m willing to speculate that, with the exception of the Oct. 30 ep that will run during sweeps period, that the rest of November is still unknown as well. But that’s all I’m willing to say at this point until the numbers for Oct. 23 & 30 come in.
Now there’s this though, so I not sure what to think. http://www.thefutoncritic.com/news.aspx?id=20091015fox01
@ buffywrestling,
Thanks for the link. I am glad to see Fox continuing to state in it’s press releases that DH will air through November’s Sweeps. I don’t think that anything has changed though. Fox most likely wants the show to succeed and will keep to that schedule if it stays within an acceptable range. If it doesn’t, then I have little doubt that they will air it at a later time and replace it with something else during Sweeps.
Yeah, I think it’s most likely subject to change because of Helman’s qualifier as well. Still have to wait for those Oct numbers.
To add: Be a shame if they had to split up the Oct 30 & Nov 6 2-parter though.
I guess the competition at 9 on Thursday is tough for Fringe. I love the show and hope Fox will be patient. Maybe a move to a different night and time would help.
At this point, Dollhouse definitely needs to die an organized, quiet death at its 13th episode. Nothing can save it.
Then, Whedon needs to call me. I have an idea for a show with Summer Glau as a lead along with three others AND some other TSCC alumni that will break all the rules. Unfortunately, he needs to let me be the showrunner in terms of concept.
After all, if they let that idiot Friedman be showrunner on TSCC, with no broadcast production experience and no sci-fi cred, they can do the same for me. 