I like quirky shows. I do. And I wanted to like Glee. I even sort of liked the pilot last season. I didn’t love it, but I liked it well enough to commit to trying it in the fall. When it returned, I hated it. Oh, there are certain charming aspects, and of the three episodes I’ve watched since the fall premiere there have been moments that make me really want to like the show. But there’s something about it that just rubs me the wrong way. I finally figured out what it is: This is one of the most misogynistic shows on TV right now.
Every single female on the show is lying, scheming, manipulative or just downright evil. The only exception is Emma, who is crazy, instead. Females are treated pretty poorly on TV in general, but I can’t think of any other show where there is not at least one female who is presented in a more positive light. Even Dollhouse, which people love to accuse of misogyny, doesn’t present the whole female population as either crazy or manipulative.
Now, if the show presented everyone, male and female, in similar lights, that would be another story. But the males on the show are all innocent, good people. Every lying, scheming woman, is lying and scheming to a man. Not the other way around.
So while there are reasons to enjoy the show, I’m glad I’ve pinpointed the reason why I can’t. It’s a much more definitively answer to give to people who ask why I’m not watching than just, “Half the time, it makes me want to throw my TV out the window for some reason.”
Idiotic load of crap that doesn’t really belong on this site. Rachel and Mercedes aren’t portrayed as any of those things. One of the most villainous characters on the show is Puck.
I’ll ignore this and go about my day, thanks.
Rachel isn’t presented as manipulative, who will do anything to get things her way, including sabotage the Glee club? Ok. Whatever you say. She was the inspiration for this idea, actually.
What happened to this site being just about the numbers?
Sure, the women on Glee are flawed, but so are the guys. They maybe more “innocent and good”, but their either really stupid (Shue & Finn), a total a-hole (Puck), or cardboard cut-outs (Artie & Kurt), and some don’t even get to speak (the two token back-up dancers).
I’d rather be lying and scheming, which could be analogous with being ambitious and clever, than be the slow “good” guy. Either way, I’m loving the show because all of the characters are flawed in their own stereotypical way.
This sounds like an article I read on Jezebel.
Obviously you haven’t watched many eps since the three main male characters all committed acts of lying to further their own goals. Puck lied about having sex with his friends girl. The teacher blackmailed some students over grades to win a fight with Sue and the lead Glee guy fooled one of the girls so he could get her to return to Glee Club to help with padding his resume for college.
And the football coach manipulated the Glee football players to quit so he could get back at Emma and the Glee teacher for having feeling for each other.
Sorry I’m bad about names.
Sorry, I meant “may be” and “they’re”. I don’t want people nitpicking on typos to punch holes in my argument.
Julia, if you’re going to try and slam the writing of Rachel, while NOT criticizing any of the horribly negative characteristics that they’ve given male characters like Finn (indecisive, only cares about being popular) and Puck (only cares about sex sex sex), you’re not being fair whatsoever.
People will see what they want to see.
Like I said, I’ve watched three episodes this season. Puck barely showed up at all other than to try to be the good guy and take responsibility for his baby. Yeah, he slept with his best friend’s girlfriend, but he wanted to make it better.
Quite frankly, I’m not even sure who Finn is.
Finn is the leading male character in the glee club.
You know, just a thought, maybe you should watch more than three episodes before writing an article on something you know nothing about.
If this was about Gossip Girl or any other teen show on the CW, I would totally agree.
But I think the creative minds behind Glee are doing this on purpose to mock Gossip Girl, 90210 and similar shows in a very polite, but sarcastic way. That’s the type of humor in the show.
I also heard people say they hate it when characters on the show suddenly burst into song like they’re insane – well, it shouldn’t make sense. People try to look at this show like a teen dramedy – it’s actually more like a sitcom, like 30 Rock. People would haaate 30 Rock, if for some weird reason, it were a one hour show. They would look at it as a drama with comedic elements and they would be like: Oh, this show is so unrealistic – Liz and Jenna are doing insane, disgusting things to each other and they’re still BFFs and they act like nothing’s happened.
Glee is not trying to be serious. Or rational. Or realistic. It’s mocking the big cliche teen dramas have become these days. And I happen to love it.
We’ve had non-numbers pieces here (what tv shows do you watch?), even silly pieces (the magic 8 ball piece) here. If Rob and Bill want to give Julia some space to speak her mind ON THEIR OWN SITE, what’s wrong with that?*
I don’t watch Glee because other than it not being the kind of show I’d like anyway, its writing and characterization are terribly inconsistent. (In the pilot Will is terribly broken enough about leaving Glee to work elsewhere to support his family, but he hardly gives quitting another thought in the second episode all because Rachel insults him? Inconsistent.) And it’s too reminiscient of Popular, the other Ryan Murphy show I never cared for.
*Hey Robert and Bill, if you’re looking for more people to speak their minds here, I volunteer! You know how mouthy I can be!
Glee is pretty crappy, made it 20 minutes into the Pilot, and the commericals did the rest on turning me away. Another loser that FOX will no doubt renew to make room for a good show they will cancel.
I prefer the site to to be more focused on numbers and business stuff because we get reviews from a lot of sites already but then it’s okay to have this reviews occasionally.
Well, Betty in Ugly Betty is presented in a positive light.
I’m not watching Glee either but for different reasons than what you have.
This article was really not necessary, and I don’t understand how you managed to come to the conclusion when you only watched tree episodes. All the characters were not even portrayed and developed fully yet. They had character driven episodes after it.
Just to remind that Emma, Rachel and Mercedes are portrayed in positive light not negative they have some issues but still. All the characters on the show are crazy.
Having reviews or write-ups on shows is something that only adds to the rich wealth of content on the site already except when there as badly written as this was. This wasn’t very well thought out and reads as more of a personal rant than anything.
Santana, Brittany and Tina are not manipulative, evil, schemers and they never lie.
Some of you are pieces of work (to put it nicely). This wasn’t labeled as a review it was labeled “Why (Julia) is not watching Glee”.
You can disagree with her opinion without needing to attack her.
I watched three episodes of Stargate Universe and decided I didn’t need to watch another. Many people can make watch or not decisions based on ONE episode or even less. Three is a healthy sample!
You can look at a headline like “Why I’m not watching Glee” and know it’s not a ratings-related post. No article on this entire blog is “really necessary” if “necessary = “I need it to survive”. By that metric, no blog posts are necessary.
Wow. I’m a woman and reading your “review” makes me want to throw my computer out the window for some reason. IMO, this interpretation of the show is completely off base and most definitely not the type of content I want to see on this site.
Well I think Julia’s post was a bit unnecessary especially since she only watched the first 3 episodes. The characters were still being developed, and maybe if Julia caught up on all the episodes she wouldn’t come to the conclusion she wrote about in her post.
Please don’t go posting negative things about a show that has not only done great in the ratings, but also one that has a huge fan base supporting it.
This is a show about teens in High School so obviously the head cheerleader may be manipulative at some point, but in no way were Mercedes or Rachel or even Tina manipulative. Sure Rachel wants to be the lead all the time, but that’s just a high school girl striving to achieve something with her life. And the guys were manipulative in their own ways, but isn’t that High School life? And who cares if any of them were manipulative anyway? That’s just drama the writers tend to use for the episodes, since the show revolves around teenagers in high school…
Seriously, don’t shed negative light on the show if you only watched 3 episodes and not the rest of the season…either watch the whole season, or none at all…
@ robert
BURRRRRRN!
I gotta say, after watching an episode, i decided to return to my happy place of crime procedurals and quirky crime fighters
Glee is not a very good show, but not for the reasons you’ve outlined. Content-wise, outside of the music numbers and the one-liners, there’s nothing there. The plotlines are flimsy, generic and poorly done. I don’t see how this show can possibly sustain itself beyond the present season.
So critics only have to watch one episode to have an opinion (sometimes they do watch two or three, if they are made available beforehand) but Julia has to watch the whole season to have an opinion?
Really?
Since when did TVBYTHENUMBERS turn into WHINEFORNOLEGITREASONBYTHENUMBERS. Start your own blog for your misguided attempt at feminism.
“..but Julia has to watch the whole season to have an opinion?”
No Robert, she doesn’t to watched the whole season. It’s just that Julia probably should, since she completely revealed why she is NOT currently in a position to review the show when she declared not to know who the main male character is. While some have made the attacks a bit personal, that doesn’t discredit all others from pointing out the ridiculousness of her points.
Also, while it is obviously your site and you can do whatever you’d like with it, please don’t retreat to the tired idea that we should just skip a post or recognize that it’s not necessary for us to survive. We are fans of this site about numbers, and the more and more random opinion that is posted (and poorly argued opinion at that) the more it gets watered down.
What if next month you double the number of opinion pieces, and double the next month after that, and so on until it’s half numbers/half opinion. And then in a year it is almost all opinion; when we were supposed to say something about how a site we enjoy seems to be changing its direction*? I think close to the beginning would make the most sense.
Love TVBTN,
Stacy.
*Not really suggesting the site is changing its direction right now AT ALL.
The characters just aren’t that interesting to me, so that’s why I stopped watching.
Again, my bracket tabs for emphasis were commented out. I need to remember that happens on this site. First line should read…
“No Robert, she doesn’t NEED to watch the whole season.”
Fire up, Gleeks!
Generally, no, I think three is probably fair enough for most shows (even though I tend to cling). I think, for Glee, possibly up to episode six is needed. Just sayin’
Wow, this article obviously got linked to on a Glee message board.
Calm down, people. One article does not a site-direction change make. Content here was getting a little fuzzy back last spring with all of the Chuck posts, but it’s been extremely consistent since then.
While Glee is not a fantastic show, and it is perfectly acceptable to form an opinion on a show after one-three episodes the statement that all of the females in the show is pretty flat-out wrong. I haven’t seen every episode but while some of the girls are in fact crazy and/or manipulative, there are at least an equal amount who are not and the guys on the show have a similar split. Moreover, the guy who got that cheerleader pregnant I am fairly sure did not want to take responsibility for his child and was trying to keep the fact that it was his instead of the main guy’s a secret, not trying to be a good guy and take responsibility for it like you stated, Julia (at least from one of the episodes I viewed).
Julia’s tough and she can take the criticism and if people want to refute her points with specific reasons, I don’t have any issue with that. Honestly having never watched an episode of Glee I have zero opinion on the post.
But Stacy, please don’t confuse my response to people who claimed “this post wasn’t necessary” with my point on just ignoring posts that obviously aren’t about ratings if you only want posts that are about ratings
THAT is NOT a tired concept. People who aren’t interested in NFL, or NBA, or MLB ratings posts just ignore them. People who aren’t interested in whether Judge Wapner is going to appear on The People’s Court on Friday in a post that had absolutely nothing to do with ratings, just ignore it. If all you want is posts about ratings, ignoring the ones that aren’t is easy.
This is ridiculous. I was glad a few weeks ago when I stopped watching Glee. Now I’m REALLY glad I stopped watching because its “fans” are so freaking annoying.
I don’t watch Glee so I have no real opinion about that, but I do want to comment about the type of post: I’ve been on this site nearly since the beginning and I don’t think there is anything wrong with posts like this. It’s not the first time there has been a review-like post that has nothing to do with the numbers (I seem to remember several Chuck posts last may, as well as posts on BSG, Mad Men, and Burn Notice among others), and I doubt it will be the last. I love the numbers-focus of this site, but I also like these extra posts (even when I disagree with what they say).
Oh god, Robert, Julia is a big girl and she can take her critics head on, you don’t need to make excuses for her or people posting on this site. The problem with her artical isn’t that she’s expressing her opinion on a relatively sensitive matter, but the fact she couldn’t be Any more wrong. Yes, the girls in glee are manipulative, but so are the guys. I don’t bash her for not watching the show, she should just keep her opinion to herself when she has something negative to say about a show she knows nothing about
Fringfan, indeed she is a big girl and can take it. But we’re fine if she doesn’t keep her opinions to herself whether you and some others like it or not.
Based on this, if anything, I will be encouraging Julia to write weekly “Why I watch” or “Why I don’t watch” posts.
I am unable to write “Why I Don’t Watch” posts. They would both be far too numerous, and quite boring.
I knew this post would be controversial. While I don’t agree with Julia’s opinion I think it’s a fair reason to stop watching after three episodes especially for a new show.Although I do understand why the fans are up in arms because the criticism she pointed is something that is better argued if she had watched all episodes that aired. Plus this post seemed random because there has been no new ep of Glee the past week, if she posted this assessment after the airing the third episode it would have make more sense.
As for my take on the show, I like Glee mainly because of the musical numbers and Sue Sylvester but the main stories of the show is a little off to me for example the fake pregnancy plot which for me is too contrived.
“Plus this post seemed random because there has been no new ep of Glee the past week, if she posted this assessment after the airing the third episode it would have make more sense.”
Exactly, it just looks like she’s looking for a argument posting why doesn’t like a show which she hasn’t watched the last 5 episodes. It comes off as uniformed and is probably the reason why so many people are up in arms about it.
For a minute, I thought Robert or Bill wrote this piece LOL
(I guess I can retract my “This reaaaaallyyy isn’t a show for you, Bill [Robert]!”)
As for the show itself, sooner or later the whole novelty will wear off (does anyone think this will be a 5, 6, 7 season show??)….for all the haters out there, hang tight….the end is probably sooner than you think!
Robert, I would love it if Julia had a “why I don’t watch” and a “why I watch” post every week, I bet we can find stereotypes in every one of her favorite shows.
I was having a conversation about Glee recently and the misogyny was discussed, so I only just realized what it is that bugs me so much about the show. But apparently I’m not the only one who thinks this. The NY Post agrees (Though they don’t seem to think Rachel is manipulative, either. Maybe I’m alone on that one, though when I’ve discussed it with people away from the internet, they seem to see that she is.)
Weekends are slow so while I considered holding off posting until Wednesday or Thursday, I figured this is a nice way to break up a slow Sunday.
Glee is effectively a high school drama. The girls were always going to be manipulative, and the boys were always going to be sex obcessed, it’s just how these things go on TV.
I would be interested to know how you think Glee stacks up to similarly set shows, the obvious examples being Gossip Girl, the early seasons of One Tree and to a lesser extend Vampire Diaries. Do you find the flaws you describe common to all of these shows? Or is there something about the angle Glee has taken that makes it stand out?
I completely disagree with this post.
Coach told Emma that if she didn’t date him she would never find anyone, that he was her last chance at any type of relationship.
Shue is leading on Emma, knowing how much she likes him. Others have mentioned his other horrible parts such as repeatedly putting his own interests above the interests of his students (failing kids in his class, abandoning the group for his own singing, replacing the lead singer with a former crush instead of another student).
Puck wanted to flip a porta-potty with the WheelChair kid in it. Throws slushies in the faces of other students. Sleeps with his friends girlfriend after getting her drunk (her words). Dumps another guy in the garbage repeatedly. Joins Shue’s singing group in order to go after “hot moms”. etc. Many of these things happen in the first three episodes, so I don’t see how he comes off as perfect.
Finn used to throw water and pee balloons at the other glee members. Cheated on his girlfriend (kissing Rachel). Misled Rachel into rejoining the club so that he had a chance to go after a vocal scholarship. Is dumb as a doornail (classic jock).
Tina and Mercedes seem pretty nice. Ok, Mercedes throws fits now and then, but she is primarily portrayed in a positive light.
Even if one has watched only the first three episodes I don’t see how the negative male characters could be missed; unless one was solely looking for negative female portrayals.
I have nothing against either Emma’s wackiness or Rachel’s single-mindedness, so I don’t consider either of those two portrayals as negative impressions of women.
haha, so what if it’s not “numbers related.” You can obviously tell it’s not going to be based on the title. I’d love to read other “Why I Do/Don’t Watch …” posts, if only for the ridiculous comments. Seriously people, it’s a TV show, nothing life changing.
I noticed the same thing about Glee, but I took it more as parody rather than actual misogynism. So many personalities on the show are so overinflated – on purpose – that I didn’t think anything of it.
I thought that the fact that the females are the characters that are supposed to be funny for once (whereas females in other older comedies pften tended to be there as little more than stage props and counterbalance the wacky male stars) was actually a step up from the usual fare.
And I don’t think ALL of the females are crazy and manipulative. Quinn seems like a pretty sympathetic character, and Mercedes and Tina seem normal. And there are negative male characteristics, like Finn being a dope, Puck being a sleazeball, and Artie being a manipulative horny dork. The characterization just takes some time to settle in.
*scratch Artie, I meant the guy with glasses and curly hair that goes after Rachel instead.
It’s not a problem to criticize a show you are not a fan of… and if the post was written more carefully it wouldn’t have had such a negative effect.
“This is one of the most misogynistic shows on TV right now.”
It’s aired 8 episodes at this point. If you’re going to refer to it as the most misogynistic show on the air “right now” then you should have seen the most recent episodes to back up that statement.
It’s one thing to express dislike for something, quite another to call it misogynistic after not having viewed all of it. Based on the eight episodes aired GLEE mirrors POPULAR as being a show mostly about people who are all capable of manipulation and greed if put in the right circumstances. Nobody is every perfect and at some point everyone does something self-serving and manipulative. The men on the show are no better than the women.
Again, just poorly worded. What Julia probably should have said was “Based on a few episode I found it to be incredibly misogynistic.” Instead of making a declaration after only a brief sampling of the material.
This show bored me to tears. I stopped watching when they kept showing the stupid fake pregnancy story line and then the new cliched pregnancy story line.
I think people are responding to just a couple of key points; not that Julia doesn’t like the show but that she makes some observations that are very easily shown to be false:
“Every single female on the show is lying, scheming, manipulative or just downright evil. The only exception is Emma, who is crazy, instead. ”
“But the males on the show are all innocent, good people. ”
Tina, and Mercedes are portrayed in a positive light. Shue, Coach, and Finn have all been shown to be manipulative etc. Puck has been shown to be cruel. If those arguments were the primarily basis for the show as “one of the most misogynistic shows on TV right now” then showing that they are false refutes the statement, or at least some other evidence would have to be brought up to back it.
I don’t know. Kurt’s arrogant, Will blackmailed Finn into joining glee and flirts with his friend’s fiancee constantly; Puck impregnated his best friend’s girlfriend, tumbles handicapped kids in porto-johns, and dated Rachael just so he could bring a Jew home; Finn feigned feelings for Rachael to help his career; Ken Tanaka tried to make the kids choose between extracurriculars out of a personal vendetta, and Sandy connived with Sue to ruin Glee.
Now, Jessalyn Gilsig’s character is insipid, and many people can’t stand her. Sue is just a comic relief character played up to Jane Lynch’s acting skills. Meanwhile, Emma is sweet, Rachael is exceedingly decent albeit arrogant, and I have no clue what problems you see with Mercedes or Tina. Bitchy, superior cheerleaders have a place in pretty much every teen comedy of the past thirty years, so I’m not sure you can’t point a finger at Gwen and her minions, either.
Glee is very much like Pushing Daisies, in that it draws farcical notes by featuring troubled, miserable people acting exceedingly chipper in a surprisingly vibrant environment. The show’s not perfect, and does hit plenty of sour notes, but to attribute it to any heightened degree of misogyny, is unfair, in my view.
Tina and Mercedes, if they are the backup singers, barely had screen time apart from actually singing, so can they really be held up as shining examples of womanhood? Perhaps some of the males have become a bit more flawed since I last watched, but it doesn’t help the show all that much, in my opinion. Even if the good guys are flawed, they still have good points. The women are single-minded and driven to manipulate and destroy their “enemies.” Even the haloed Rachel.
So you have no problems with two male leads who are dumb as rocks; another male teacher who is basically a child molester; a football coach who is one step away from assaulting a woman or a football player who slept with his best friends girlfriend. Also add an entire football team that throws slushies on unpopular people. Yeah they are real paragons on the ideal man.
The idea that men on glee are shown as saints whilst the women are all evil is laughable. Everyone on Glee has a good side and a bad side.
Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion.
Even if it’s wrong.
Hopefully, Julia doesn’t watch “Mad Men” for the same reason. Retro-misogyny should not be any more fashionable than contemporary misogyny.
Honestly, most characters should have plenty of faults and occasionally operate as scheming, manipulative jerks, because “Land of the Happy People who are Good without Fault” is a pretty boring show.
I think Julia does gloss over one of the most manipulative deceitful things portrayed on the show: The MALE Glee instructor falsely accused Finn of having drugs in order to get him to join the show choir/glee club.
That’s an “innocent, good” person? Really?
That was in the pilot that Julia “sort of liked.”
But, of course, that was a guy, and there is no fun in complaining about them.
Complain on, Julia!
while I hadn’t thought of the misogynism, but I don’t really like the show. It’s overly dramatic and not very entertaining aside from the musical numbers.
The reason I keep watching it is because of Jayma Mays, she is FINE.
I know that’s shallow of me…
Harold, I don’t watch Mad Men because after 4 episodes of that, I couldn’t stand a single character, male or female, and had no reason to continue.
The pilot was months ago, and they did need some sort of set up for the show. (Though they certainly did not need any sort of set up for why the cheerleaders would hate the Glee club. My friend explained that there was some brief explanation about funding after I had stopped watching, but it went on for weeks where you were just supposed to accept that Jane Lynch would want to destroy the Glee club for no reason.)
“Tina and Mercedes, if they are the backup singers, barely had screen time apart from actually singing, so can they really be held up as shining examples of womanhood?”
Tina is more of a back-up singer than Mercedes. She is the character that is probably the least developed of that whole cast. But Mercedes, I would not consider a back-up singer. She has had quite a bit of development, has had solos in group songs and has had about 3 solo songs (while Tina has only had 1). Still, Mercedes does not fit in that group of yours.
The only females that I consider would fit into your labeling (i.e evil, manipulative etc.) would be Terri and Sue. Although if you had watched more episodes, you would find out Sue isn’t as evil as she makes herself out to be.
@Bill, yeah that’s how I am. But I’d do a collective post for everything on CBS.
Glee doesn’t care about female people!
Needs more specifics.
Sorry, spotupj:
Cheerleader: Lies to her boyfriend that she’s pregnant with his baby when it’s really his best friend’s, even though they’ve never had sex, so she can keep dating the quarterback instead of some other football player. Then she teams up with the wife of the lead character to help her in her scheme.
Wife of lead character: Has a hysterical pregnancy and decides that thinking she’s pregnant is the only thing keeping her husband around, so she doesn’t tell him that she’s not actually pregnant, and teams up with the cheerleader to take her baby and pass it off as if she gave birth to it. Or something.
Jane Lynch’s character: Just plain evil. Out to destroy the Glee club, with very little reason, and does nothing but plot and scheme to that end.
Rachel, lead singer in Glee: Manipulates everyone to make sure that she gets to remain lead singer at all times, even to the point where she’s willing to take down the entire Glee club to ensure she gets her spot.
How’s that for specifics?
There are a lot of negative things that the female cast has done. Positive things too. It’s just that there are many negative things that the male cast has done as well.
The problem that I have with the show is that I cant find a single character that I want to root for. I try to like them but then they do something that makes me think, “how stupid can you be.” I personally dont think it is just the women of the show the are portrayed poorly, I think its everyone.
Will- dumb as rocks. Blackmails a student into joining his Glee Club. All in first episode. All but cheats on his wife with another teacher.
Sandy – accused child molester in first episode. Manipulates Rachel in later episodes to try and get Glee club to fail.
Ken Tanaka, more or less stalks a female teacher and harasses her everyday.
Finn – Dumb as rocks. Kisses another girl even though he has a girlfriend. Goes on a date with a girl and plays with her emotions just so she will stay in Glee because its beneficial to him.
Puck – Put a wheel chair bound kid in a toilet. Threw another kid in a garbage can, got his best friends girl friend pregnant.
Jacob – a kid who blackmailed Rachel into giving him her bra in order for him not to tell everybody Quinn was pregnant.
Kurt – vain & sarcastic
The entire football team – they make fun of the “different” kids and they throw slushies on a girl everyday.
The principal – the guy is basically incompetant and has an anything we can get away with goes attitude.
Hmm I think I’ve listed every major male in the show outside of Artie and none of them are these flawless saints. I’m sorry if I’m having trouble seeing how this show is biased against women. Everyone has shown to have negative and positive sides.
The pregnancy story IS very unpopular and I think turns a lot of people off.
Thanks, Julia. Sorry if I sounded mean, I just thought that a post calling out a show for something like this would do well to have some evidence. Thanks for spawning some interesting discussion.
Okay, while I respects people’s opinions, I have to point out something “Did we watch the same show?
Cheerleader: Embarrassed about the baby, that Finn clearly cares about, thus she feels guilty. Oh, did I mention that the best friend, Puck, made her drunk and had sex with her? Yeah, a real saint.
Wife of Lead character: Everyone hates me, we’re meant to. The end.
Jane Lynch got a major development in the last few episodes. She’s awesome. She’s just insecure about the fact that Glee could take over her Cheerios group. That’s not a little reason.
Rachel: What the hell did she do other being a real drama queen? She’s pretty much a saint aside from her attitude. In all the episodes that have aired, she NEVER manipulated anyone for her spot. She only believes that she deserves said spot. As the show progresses, she learns that she’s not the center of the universe, but she never done any evil.
That is why people reacted to this “opinion” so strongly. It’s because you don’t really know what’s going on and claiming that this show is “one of the most misogynistic shows on TV right now.” based on 3 episodes. That’s what people are having problem with, your reasoning for not watching the show, not the fact that you’re not watching.
tomorrow on TVbythenumbers: Why I breathe oxygen
And, yet, no one has shown me any evidence, based on what I’ve watched, to prove the show is not misogynistic. Yes, some of the men are doofy or mean, but the women are the evil schemers, just like all women really are, dontcha know? Why would I continue watching a show which after three episodes (four if you include the pilot) that’s the only impression I have of it?
Everyone hates her*
That’s what I get for not proofreading.
So its ok for men to be mean but if the women are then it becomes misogynistic. You seem to dismiss all male wrongdoing and accentuate all female wrong doing. Now who is being one sided.
Actually, I would like some more posts like these. I visit this site a lot, and even though this is supposed to be all about the numbers, I can’t help but wonder what you guys REALLY like.
And Julia, I have much more respect for you knowing that you hate Glee and Mad Men.
What *I* do hate about Glee is the pregnancy storyline. My only hope is that the pregnancy story will end with the lead character’s wife leaving the show because I hate her that much. Also, of course, with the real father being found out so that it can become a non-issue.
Chrisjozo, it’s not that the males are all fine with what they do. Puck, as has been pointed out (trust me, I didn’t even consider him enough of a character to even think of him when I was writing this) is the bad guy, and is portrayed that way. But Quinn and Rachel, for all their scheming and manipulation are apparently the good characters. The show is promoting that women are just like that, so it’s fine! That’s what’s misogynistic.
Here’s the thing.
Most TV shows idealize women. I say this as a woman. A lot of shows out there will give you the beautiful, hardworking, self-deprecating, intelligent, kind-hearted, flawed-in-a-good-way female lead and everybody eats it up.
Easy examples:
Grey’s Anatomy (Meredith)
How I Met Your Mother (Robin, Lily)
The Office (Pam)
Ugly Betty (Betty)
Friends (Monica, Rachel, Phoebe)
… I could go on. But my point is, they always give you the perfect female lead and then the stupid, moronic, bumbling, callous male leads just kind of struggle to keep up with her. Glee is all about EQUALITY. You’ve got the manipulative perfectionist Rachel, stupid lying Terri, crazy Emma, snobby Quinn – sure. But you’ve also got idiotic Finn, lying back-stabbing Puck, oblivious Mr. Schuester, and disgusting Ken to contend with them. Not to mention that both sides have perfectly normal/nice characters (Mercedes and Tina; Kurt and Artie).
My point is, everybody in the whole world has something wrong with them. We’re all either manipulative or dumb or sneaky or elitist or ugly, or any range of other bad characteristics. This show is one of the best at realizing this and working it into their characters.
I absolutely love Glee! I will agree with some of the previous comments that FOX has cancelled some great shows to keep horrible ones-but this is not the case with Glee. Sure its a little cheesy and over the top, but that’s what I like about it. Its at least something different, and a welcome change from the constant stream of crime shows and medical dramas.
And as far as this “article” goes, I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how misinformed it may be.
Roll Tide
I have had a spot in my heart for tis website for sometime, as it talks based on facts, not opinions. This blog being published, actually falsely, as the show does have negative attributes towards all of the characters, really disappoints me.
This show is the smartest show the season. Period. I have been an avid fan of TV for over a decade, obsessed with new shows, and catching all of them
. This is one of the best, smartest, wittiest shows available in a decade.
Its quite funny, and appeals to everyone in some way. I am thrilled it has an audience, and anyone posting negative perspectives simply to be negative is outright ridiculous. As aforementioned, the show has negative qualities oozing out of every character on the show. This is part of the brilliance. It shows the human side, while being quirky, and effectively cliche.
The show is different. It is not a show that you can fully understand in a few sittings. As the show progresses, the flaws, and perfections, of every character are explored – and beautifully. Once you get into it, and really become a “Gleek” as they are calling it – you are a fan. It has found an audience, and that audience is obsessed. Yes, the show is different, it is not what your used to Julia. It is something new, and refreshing. It is a change. It is styled uniquely, and this can make it difficult to like – especially if a person is stuck in a routine of a certain set of shows. This show is its own genre. Its never quite been accomplished like this before. If you don’t like it, its understandable, but don’t make up FALSE accusations about the program, as they are not an accurate interpretations of what the show is, and stands for. It shows the flaws CLEARLY, in all of the characters, and this is seen as the episodes progress. We dive deep into all the characters, and see flaws within them as their story arc evolves.
This little show, GLEE, is remarkably brilliant in many senses. People can easily, and very understandably, have a dislike for a show that is so different, but this blog needs to be taken down because its blasphemy. It may show negative characteristics about the women, but the men are portrayed as just as negative.
In Germany, the Nazis convinced a country that the Jewish people were the people that were causing everyones hard-ache. They believed this, for this is what they saw. I am not comparing Julia to a Nazi, I don;t have anything against Julia (I find her posts intriguing usually), I am just saying publishing this blog on here is showing what Julia sees in this show. Actually, just as with Germany, this is an inaccurate interpretation as to what is actually being portrayed by the television program.
The show is human, not at all anti – women.
It is actually brilliant.
Well, we succeeded in making a lot of people flock to this site… I mean, we all know it was just a cheap attempt at site-hits — getting someone to post a poorly thought-out argument slamming a show with a rabid online fanbase.
“Why would I continue watching a show which after three episodes (four if you include the pilot) that’s the only impression I have of it?” – Feel free not to watch it. Just don’t slam it as being misogynistic if you clearly don’t know what the word means.
Here you go. I looked up for you!
: having or showing a hatred and distrust of women.
Your theory would fit if there were male characters shows in any positive light. The fact that GLEE paints the entire cast in both a positive and negative light doesn’t seem to matter to you. None of the women are any better or worse than the men. They all lie and manipulate to get their way — and that isn’t misogynistic.
Your argument should be “I don’t like the show…” That doesn’t draw as many site hits as a half-brained theory suggesting misogynistic undertones against women.
I love Glee for the same reason you hate it. That’s the beauty of television and the frustration of programming execs. Everything can sell, but who do you sell it too and with what method. Luckily for Glee, it is reaching people like me who relish in seeing the visualization of the manipulative and blinded nature of the average human (this show does it both ways – the guys aren’t surrounded by halos by any means). It’s done in such a fun and ridiculous way that I can laugh about it.
Kathy- The pregnancy storyline poses some interesting subtexts in comedy and substance. The problem with it is it came far too early in the series’ run. It’s just not as interesting without a fuller dimension of some of the characters. The bulk of this is rumored to be resolves on primary levels very soon – lets hope it all works.
mayorofsimpleton, portraying every female as manipulative doesn’t show a distrust of women? While the men are not perfect, the women are the manipulative bitches in this story, which was demonstrated over and over again in the episodes I watched.
The best characters are the ones with flaws. Glee allows everyone (man/woman) to be responsible for their bad behavior and as the show has gone on many of the characters become aware of their horrible behavior and are growing. Like people in the real world, they make mistakes and there are consequences to their actions… and they’re feeling it. That is decidedly NOT misogynistic. It might not be your cup of tea, but it shows an equality for women if anything. If they got to be played as moral icons without flaws it would imply they NEED special treatment. Glee lets them be just as screwed up as the men.
This website is getting more and more insufferable! Just give the numbers and leave the editorializing to the professionals, k?
While the men are not perfect, the women are the manipulative bitches in this story, which was demonstrated over and over again in the episodes I watched –
And in those same episodes the men were shown to be JUST as manipulative.
1×01 – Pilot – Mr. Shuster places drugs in a student’s locker so he can manipulate him into joining Glee club.
1×02 – Showmance – Finn manipulates Rachel into thinking he has feelings for her in order to secure his own interests.
As has been stated, if Glee weren’t handing out manipulative cards to the men you’d have an argument for your misogynistic theory. Sadly, that it treats the men in the very same light it has no slant against females. Not to mention the prior argument that if you’re going to rip on something as being the “most misogynistic show on the air” you’d better have seen the most recent episodes to back that kind of statement up.
Ever seen a little show called 2 and a Half Men? Yeah, Glee is the most misogynistic show on TV. Okay.
The female character do no more than their male counter parts. You also seem to ignore Emma who is probably the most innocent character on the show. Its not misogynistic to show men and women equally engaging in bad behavior.
Who has Rachel manipulated? She has a crush on a guy and she set up a study session to be near him. Finn did the exact same thing with her when he took her bowling in order to get her to stay in Glee so he could get a scholarship. Was that not scheming too or is it ok because he’s male.
I also guess Sandy doesn’t scheme when he tries to break up the Glee club.
At the same time Rachel has tried to help protect Quinn from the public shame of her pregnancy. She has constantly supported Finn’s dreams. She graciously forgave Puck for all he did to her.
You can’t point out the faults of one gender while ignoring the faults of the other and then try and credibly claim a show is biased. You also can’t ignore the positives of the female characters either.
Not a fan of the Glee concept; musicals turn my blood cold.
But every woman is evil? That’s new.
Has anyone looked at TV commercials lately? Can anyone spot a MAN who’s ever been right in the last 20 years? Dads are always fools. The WOMAN has the smarter, inside-track. Even DOGS show better decision skills.
Is there any way we can stop this?
Ok, well I’d like to say a few things. I’ve been a BIG fan of this website for as long as I can remember finding it which was at least 18 months ago I believe. I really enjoy getting the ratings data (especially without some of the commentary which tends to be spun in ridiculous ways – while I enjoyed Marc Berman I find his slant on the ratings very myopic – YES WE KNOW Jay Leno is not doing big numbers but that certainly does not make him the biggest flop of the new season, that honours would go to a show like Three Rivers that while doing better in the demo than Leno on several nights is much more expensive etc). I do like that Robert and Bill consider the economic/business side of the TV production alongside the ratings. I also like to hear their opinions from time to time particularly if they believe the quality decline of the show is linked to the ratings decline etc.
I’m not even that opposed to a pure opinion piece – especially as Julia pointed out that it is a lazy weekend and I log on every day – to my dismay on weekends generally, as there are little, if any, updates.
And I would like to say I thoroughly enjoy Glee but can see how others wouldn’t – for many reasons including that is far-fetched, and at times illogical (the cheerleading coach’s motivations are fairly thin).
However, I think if you are going to do an opinion piece you should try to be as thorough as possible. Generally speaking I would say that a good critic would watch the pilot plus the next two episodes (this is generally what is provided to a critic by the network/studio). As a side note – the critic is usually limited to this number as this is all that is provided (Julia could have watched up to 8 episodes of Glee). I don’t expect Julia to know the names of the characters after 3 episodes, I don’t even know them all after 8 (though I know most) but if I were writing an article I would do a simple search on TV.com or some other website to find them out. Also if I were making an argument that the show’s characters were manipulative etc etc I would provide examples (what a critic on a professional website would do) – note, Julia you’ve done this in the comments below – why not add that to the original article and add in the names of the characters.
I think there are two reasons people are a bit upset with the article – one the quality is not quite up there – I think there’s some good points even if I don’t really agree (I think there are several female characters that are not scheming or manipulative at all, they just haven’t been developed fully yet), but I think the article could have been fleshed out more etc. I also think that people are not used to this article – I do somewhat agree with the comment that things might start getting watered down – if I want an opinion blog I’ll go to Maureen’s site which is so brilliantly put together that I don’t think you could compete with it. If I wanted a “general” opinion I’d go to a forum website like TV.com. If I want TV ratings information I come here. A website doesn’t have to be all things to all people.
But I would like to add that it would be nice to have something to read on the weekend. Perhaps you could do a ratings analysis post every weekend – comparing some more niche ratings like the W18-34 numbers of CW shows with other networks shows? Or something like what was done analysing Flashforward’s decline re other shows. Anything like that would be a joy to read and you could certainly get some opinions in there quite easily (eg I think the reason why the ratings are going down is because etc etc).
The other thing is (and this was what Maureen was getting at in the other post that was linked) that some people are just idiots, but a lot aren’t. I hope that my post has seemed constructive (and I know it’s not as well written as I would like but I’m tired and I don’t feel the need to proof read as it’s a comment not an article) but my point is that Julia I would ignore anything that’s personal or “attacky” but do try to take some of the other more constructive suggestions on board (same goes for Rob/Bill in thinking about what you want the website to be about) – it’s definitely THE TV ratings website in my mind and I think it’s only going to get bigger from now on – I guess having a vision for how it’s going to grow would be sensible (which I mean I’m sure you already have).
“Wife of lead character: Has a hysterical pregnancy and decides that thinking she’s pregnant is the only thing keeping her husband around, so she doesn’t tell him that she’s not actually pregnant, and teams up with the cheerleader to take her baby and pass it off as if she gave birth to it. Or something.”
That’s not misogyny. It’s COMEDY and FARCE. It’s very clearly unrealistic.
I have a degree in Women & Gender Studies, and trust me when I say that I subconsciously look at everything from a gendered point of view…. but nothing about this show has ever seemed misogynistic to me. The characters aren’t so much people as they are caricatures (those that are fleshed out anyway). If your argument were that the female characters are less developed than the male ones, I’d buy the misogyny (although, in this case, it would simply be untrue). But as it stands, your argument isn’t very strong or even justified, in my opinion.
By the way, the NY Post agreeing with you really doesn’t mean anything. That guy writes editorials, and the Post is pretty much the gossip rag of NY. It’s not like someone at the Times wrote a Pulitzer-worthy essay on the misogyny of Glee, and that’s why you’re not watching. That writer was probably just looking to stir up trouble.
Julia – just a quick note. Internet talkbackers, I’ve noticed, can be just as mean as say, the girls of Glee, don’t pay attention to any of the unnecessary negativity thrown your way.. just keep posting your opinion, perhaps they are just jealous that you get to. I, however, have no qualms with it and love the site. So you guys just keep doing what you do.
On a side note, I stopped watching Glee after 3 or 4 episodes as well, though for different reasons than you.. though I do see where you are coming from. I just seem to have an issue with characters breaking out into song.. well, unless Joss Whedon is in control of those characters.
I hate Glee because the humor is bland, crappy, and down right odd.
Plus they ruin good songs, I hate them for making horrible covers, and now there’s a CD filled with them. I’d rather hear a Soulja Boy or Jona Brothers CD
I hate Glee because the humor is bland, crappy, and down right odd.
Plus they ruin good songs, I hate them for making horrible covers, and now there’s a CD filled with them. No wonder why we’re in a recession.
Julia has every right to express her opinion! I don’t “get” why this site shouldn’t feature opinion pieces amidst the ratings info. It’s all good! Especially when the author has the guts to explain why “Glee” is not all that to her and diss the often-fellated Mad Men!
Kudos to Julia!
This article tends to take “Glee” too seriously. These are high school kids, they are not perfect. The character of “Rachel” has never plotted to take down the Glee Club.
Who is Julia and why shoudl I care?
I love glee but I don’t care what this woman thinks. She doens’t like it she doens’t have to watch it.
Rachel is a strong young woman, who has flaws but is also trying to better herself. She is very self aware, knows what she wants and is trying to be a better team player. In the first three episode they had to set her up a certain way so we could see her growth.
So yes Julia did just get a snapshot. All the characters are flawed but that is what the show is about how glee and friends are going to mold change them, despsit ehte outside forces that may be aginst them.
I see Emma as more flawed than Rachel. Rachel like I said has grown since the pilot, Emma is not gettig any better and is in a horrible relationship, pinning ofr someone else.
The women are complex and flawed; that’s what makes them all the more fascinating!
And even Sue, of all people, had a vulnerable side shown in Episode 8 (you must watch it–it’s the BEST of them).
“Glee” doesn’t come close to “Community” or “Modern Family” in terms of comedy or creativity; a lot of it is cliché and/or tepid at times. But there are brilliant moments, like ANYTHING with Emma and, now, scenes involving Puck. Mark Salling is terrific and has managed to transform his character into more than just a one-note; same can be said for Dianna Agron and Quinn. They’re much more compelling than Finn or Mercedes.
And you absolutely should’ve watched Episode 4. That’s when the incline began. My friend Eileen felt the same as you for the first three episodes; then, Episode 4 changed all of that, because we got to see Kurt’s relationship with his macho-inclined father, and Kurt coming to terms with his homosexuality. It was absolutely fantastic and Mike O’Malley should get a Guest Actor nod from Emmy in a just world.
And Jayma Mays is just phenomenal. Emma is the beating heart of this show. Give her an EMMY!
So, I definitely think you should watch Episode 4, enjoy it, and then if you find that it was a vast improvement over #2 and #3, you’ll be pleasantly surprised to learn that the show simply had a rocky start and is finding its voice just like its characters =).
“Many people can make watch or not decisions based on ONE episode or even less. Three is a healthy sample! ”
Um, not when it comes to deciding whether a show is misogynistic or not. Especially to the degree where it warrants its own special article about it.
By the way, I hope this won’t discourage future entries like this on this site. I would actually love to see more general TV stuff like this on here. Just general TV stuff that’s well thought-out.
I don’t think this is very true. Maybe there is some imbalance in the episodes you saw, but I doubt there is any intention to be misogynistic. Every character on that show can be labeled ‘crazy and manipulative’ at some point. Glee will certainly rub people the wrong way, but I think it’s mostly its way of humor and most imporantly the music itself.
Julia is entitled to her opinion and she choses not to watch. So be it. I chose to watch.
I like this site — but I could give two damns why YOU’RE not watching it. Why should I care?
Julia’s point is well-taken: the female characters are all “frantic,” for lack of a better term, on GLEE. The male characters are written with more sensitivity and believability. The female characters are so absurd that they’re borderline comic — whether it’s the wife pretending (like a cartoon) that she’s pregnant, or the crazy cheerleading coach, or the strident female students.
Honestly, I think it’s because Ryan Murphy is gay and his prism, in terms of his writing, is geared towards men. He understands men. He brings some of his life to his writing, like the episode where the young male student discloses his homosexuality to his father. That episode was funny, insightful, and felt more “real” than most any other story line on the show.
Please don’t think I’m being homophobic — I’m not for a second saying Ryan Murphy HATES WOMEN or something like that. But I don’t think he understands them, or even understands what makes up heterosexual relationships. That part of this series, and even his past series, doesn’t ring true — because it’s not HIS experience.
Julia, I had a similar journey to you in my taste for the show. I liked the pilot and watched the first few episodes this year. I made it further than you, through the first 6 episodes, before taking it off my dvr rotation. I would thoroughly enjoy parts of every episode but they always left a bad taste in my mouth when I would think about them. I couldn’t quite put a finger on why until I finally came to the conclusion it was because every single character on this show is a horrible person. I like seeing well-rounded characters with flaws, but the show takes it to far. I think the show’s writers must have some sort of loathing for these people. Most are manipulative, shallow and somewhat insane, but the overwhelming universal character trait is selfishness. I do have to disagree about the show being misogynistic, though. This treatment isn’t limited to the female characters, although it is certainly more obvious in them. I find it even more insidious in the male characters because it’s subtle and subversive; not played as crazy but rather celebrated. I don’t know, maybe the writer’s are making some sort of meta-statement about selfishness but I think it revels in idealizing this trait too much for that to be true.
The more I think and read, the more I completely disagree with the whole “Glee is misogynistic” angle. While I don’t disagree that the female characters are nothing short of diabolical, claiming that it is solely the female characters that have been turned into demonised stereotypes is nothing short of incorrect.
You’re entitled to your opinion of course, but you do seem to be somewhat blind to the crippling faults of the non-female characters. Yes I agree, that just makes them all dicks and is still no reason to watch, but calling foul based on imagined misogyny, well I say save it for when it’s justified.
FYI – Keep the opinions coming. I’m sure you’ll continue to get the forum given the amount of comments this post generated. This site is obviously about the numbers, but the reason anyone cares about tv ratings numbers is because on some level they care about the tv shows. So having occasional opinions (maybe even controversial opinions) about the shows at the heart of the interest for this site makes perfect sense.
Unfortunately, high school is manipulative. Look at Boston Public. Remember, Freaks and Geeks, Julia? Most of the women on that show were manipulative. Even the good ones occassionally. In many ways, Glee is up there with Freaks and Geeks. Rachel is manipulative, but that comes out of being picked on. She is actually a decent person. I agree with the pregnant storyline, but it would make it better if Quinn had an abortion. Think about it, an abortion would be controversial and it would give the show attention like no other network show has seen recently.
It seemed clear to me that Ryan Murphy is doing exactly the same thing with Glee as he did with Popular. That is to introduce a cast of characters who are stereotypes, to the extent that they border on caricatures, and then as the course of the show goes along he will start to chip away at those images and reveal the actual, more complex people underneath. There have already been several examples of that in the show already. To what extent he successfully achieves his goals is something that I have no way of predicting, but I genuinely believe that the characters as seen at the show’s start are not at all how he intends them to turn out by the program’s end.
Julia, you’re missing out. Maybe you should try a couple more episodes. The recent ones paint the “popular” kids in a much more sympathetic light. There’s less scheming and I think the show is really hitting its stride because of it.
Also, the songs are getting better and better. The Beyonce “Put a Ring on It” episode was a highlight.
Honestly I don’t know why people are still bothering to argue with Julia about this issue. It seems to me that she’s one of those people that are dead set on her opinion and won’t change it for anything in the world. This is another example of people’s flaws, whe hate admitting that we might be wrong sometimes. Although I personally love Glee and it’s basically the only show I can get my mum to watch without her hating it, I respect her opinion… I just don’t agree with it.
I’m not sure that Glee is misogynistic, but I think it’s very fair to point out how the female characters who are central to the plot (Sue, Rachel, Quinn, Emma, Terri) and not just the dance routines (Tina, Mercedes, the Cheer Twins) haven’t exactly been consistently likeable.
Jane Lynch is hilarious as Sue, but, the character is a terrible, terrible human being.
Terri’s fake pregnancy (and fake nurse gig) make her both annoying and unintelligent as a character, and it’s made clear that she’s antagonistic towards Shue, who we’re supposed to be drawn to as he’s the main character.
Rachel’s ability to annoy an audience more or less knows no bounds, even if she’s not exactly manipulative or evil.
Quinn is emerging as likeable, but that doesn’t change the fact that she spent the first half of the season as an antagonist.
There’s four female characters that have caused viewers opinions of them to oscillate wildly in both directions. Emma’s been a sweetheart the whole time, but then she’s also crazy.
There’s a good argument to be made that there isn’t a full, well-rounded female character on the show. Of course, there’s also an argument to be made that there isn’t a full, well-rounded character on the show period. They all regularly seem like hollow archetypes. So maybe it isn’t misogyny so much as it is an inability to decide if it wants its characters to be satirical or a show based around a crazy bunch of campy characters. Its best (non-musical) moments usually come when it isn’t abandoning all subtlety.
Frankly, I think a more pressing issue for the show is that while Lea Michele is basically perfect in her role, Cory Monteith is hard to buy as a quarterback (that scene where he plays catch with Shue was really, really bad), but he’s also awkward on stage doing his choreography, and his voice isn’t as good as they want to make it out to be (Mark Salling is much better).
“Even Dollhouse, which people love to accuse of misogyny, doesn’t present the whole female population as either crazy or manipulative.”
Yes, because when they’re not, they’re victims. That’s so much better, isn’t it.
Also, isn’t this a ratings site? When did we start coming here for the personal preferences of the writers?
Rachel can be maipulative, sure, you are not alone in thinking that, but as opposed to say Terri or Sue her ambition is portrayed as relateable and actually positive. She isn’t, as you say, lying to a man, she is doing everything for her goal. She isn’t demanding more of anyone than she demands of herself. That kind of thing. That generally seems to be perceived as good and strong by most.
Than of course their are some background characters who are all sweetness and light, but that really does not invalidate your argument any.
The Emma character is a complete disaster. I cannot stand her. She just like someone who has watched too much Ally McBeal at a time is trying for competent quirkiness and overshooting the mark by miles.
Cheno’s character was a complete drunken failure and slut who wasn’t manipulative, but really mostly in the way and very dependent on Will. So point.
What bothers me most, is how big they are in general on the whole whore and saint dichotomie. OTOH you have Terri and Quinn using the most female thing of a pregnancy to run their heroes on a short leash and then OTOH Emma, who won’t even stay in the same room as her husband to be???
To summarize: I enjoy Glee well enough, but I too get the feeling I should not.
I hate the word GLEE. I also dont like the word MOIST.
This show is just a Gossip Girl clone.
And thats the fact Jack!
I agree with P-Ow that Quinn is the weak link of the main cast. He isn’t believable either as the dumb jock (he actually comes off as too smart to be dumb) or as a good performer. He was really outshined by Puck.
@Bad Robot
Well you wouldn’t, it’d corrode your circuits!
Meh…I stopped watching after 5 episodes. I liked the music, but the characters are all like nails on a chalkboard.
I couldn’t disagree more with this post. I certainly respect Julia and generally find her comments on this site to be interesting and insightful, but in this point her conclusions are completely off-base and unsubstantiated by the show.
The central flaw in Julia’s post is that she didn’t stick around long enough to see that her issues with the female characters are now almost totally obsolete. At this point, Glee has shown the Saints (in Julia’s mind, the men) to be deeply flawed, manipulative, completely lacking in self-awareness and weak.
At the same time, the Sinners, those INITIALLY painted in a negative light (i.e. many, but not all, of the female characters) have shown amazing emotional growth, vulnerability and selflessness.
Examples? (Just a few because there are many.)
– After Rachel manipulates the Glee Club by leaving to be the lead in the school play, she later humbles herself and acts as an understudy for the solo on Glee Club. She acknowledges that she’s part of a group and it’s not all about her.
– Rachel becomes one of Quinn’s greatest supporters EVEN THOUGH Quinn has always been cruel to her AND despite Rachel having a huge crush on Quinn’s boyfriend! When Quinn’s pregnancy becomes known and her popular friends drop her, Rachel is one of the first people to stand by her. And even though Finn has shown that he has a crush on Rachel, she refuses to give in to her own crush on him while he’s dating Quinn.
– Quinn drops the Queen Bee act and accepts Rachel’s friendship, sheepishly conceding to Rachel that if the tables had been turned, she wouldn’t have been as nice as Rachel is being to her.
– Terri honestly believed that she was pregnant at first and Will has made her so insecure about their relationship that she is terrified to tell him the truth. Later episodes showed that she’s going through all these ridiculous lengths not out of some twisted desire to trick Will, but because she genuinely loves him and can’t stand for him to leave her. The latest episodes have showed Terri’s plight to be more misguided and sad than simply manipulative.
– Sue has shown several moments of vulnerability not to mention that while her crazy (and GENIUS) Sue’s Corner’s are over the top, they actually offer sound advice about not letting outside negativity change who you are or keep you from your goals.
perhaps I don’t watch enough TV, however I don’t see this whole misogyny argument and the poor opinion of women on TV. It seems like a blanket statement that covers everything and means absolutely nothing.
Now, off the top, I will grant that Glee might fall in the whole negative portrayal of women category purely on the basis that I have never watched it. No interest.
I do watch quite a few shows and am hard pressed to think of one that goes out of it’s way to objectify or oppress women. Sure they have brief moments of gender faux pas, but I find the recipients are fairly evenly split between male and female. These shows include: Bones, Chuck, Heroes, Community, White Collar, Smallville, Vampire Diaries, Fringe, Rescue Me and most recently V. There are others that I watch less frequently, but I’m sure the sample I’ve given is indication enough of what type of shows I gravitate towards.
If there is a wave of misogynistic tv out there I am unaware of it, and perhaps that is ignorance on my part. However, in this case, ignorance is bliss. I’ll stick with my shows that portray both genders fairly and with intelligence (with a few foibles here and there). Much like Robert said about reading non-numbers related posts, you can choose to not read them and stick to the articles you like. The same is appropriate about what tv you watch, if you find it demeans a gender or is wholly offensive then drop it like a bad habit. Pick another show, or turn the tube off and clean house, read a book, or what have you.
Just my dollar minus 98 cents…
Thank you!
Obviously, we aren’t all going to like that same shows because if we did there would be no need for TV By The Numbers. The fun behind this site is to see who is also enjoying your favorite shows and what shows we might want to tap because crowds of people are watching.
I actually enjoy Glee but know tons of people that don’t. Just need to calm down and not feel like the show is at risk just because some people express their opinion that they don’t like it.
I think it’s pretty assinine that you would single out a show and pronounce why you don’t like it. The only way to redeem yourself is to point out EVERY show you watch and EVERY show you DONT watch and why on both. Otherwise, it feels like you are using your power on this RATINGS site to influence other people to NOT watch GLEE, which I find awesome. I also think you are clueless when it comes to the male characters: FLAWS, FLAWS, FLAWS! Ahem!
I can see you’re getting ripped a new one over this, which is unsurprising. While I am doubtful of the wisdom of including an opinion piece on this site (unless it’s specifically calculated to rile the defensive and unbalanced fans), I don’t blame you for your feelings or viewpoint. I’ve never seen an episode of Glee, so I cannot contribute to the discussion, but cheers for sticking to your personal values and assessing TV from a perspective beyond the immediately obvious.
Sean Storm wrote: “The only way to redeem yourself is to point out EVERY show you watch and EVERY show you DONT watch and why on both.”
Sean, I’m afraid you opened Pandora’s box.
Did I say that? Apologies, no display of misogyny intended.
You cite the dubious action of the show’s women without mentioning the males of the show are every bit as deceitful and desperate. Maybe you should look into not watching TV at all.
When this site allows bonehead idiots to express negativity about one of the freshest, most different shows in ages it makes me wonder what the angle is. Most shows have negative aspects but I, for one am so tired of cop shows, medical shows and law shows. Glee is a breath of fresh air that should be welcomed into every home. As for misogynistic – what about the horribly negative way that men are portrayed on TV – esp, on animated shows. They are portrayed as bumbling idiots. These women on GLEE are portrayed the way MOST women act…NOT ALL just most. If you disagree with this….then wake up and smell the coffee.
These women on GLEE are portrayed the way MOST women act
See, Julia, Glee is just giving us the reality that women are all (OK, mostly) manipulative bitches. :rolleyes:
Is it me or have things become rather testy in here? One of the reasons I like this site aside from the ratings discussion is that things are pretty civil, but lately that trend seems to be changing for the worse.
I’m not even going to bother with a decent response to this rediculous article. Seriously Julia, I think I’ll be avoiding you articles from now on.
“Every single female on the show is lying, scheming, manipulative or just downright evil.”
I honestly think you’re just looking at one side of things. While you may be right about the women, let us all realize that all the male characters are all either dim-witted, gullible, vindictive d-bags, perverted, or just plain pathetic. The exceptions to this are A.) the gay kid who, unfortunately, is a stereotype, and B.) the kid in the wheelchair who is the least used character on the show next to the Asian girl.
So, we can all breathe a sigh of relief knowing that almost ALL of the characters on the show are awful and the ones who aren’t get no screen time anyway.
I thought this was a numbers site first and foremost, with opinions mixed in based on those. I hope this isn’t a preview of the direction this site is moving in.
Julia – I totally agree with you – I managed to make it up to episode 6, and I’m pretty much done with the show now. Problem is, anytime someone points out the prevalent sexism on television, people tend to get all whargarrbly and hysterical over it.
Why are u feeding into Julia;s misguided inflated ego? Why is she the one getting the chance to write an article on here? Favoritism? Encouraging her to write one more article because of the comments, isnt that a big ego driven too mr site webmaster? Is this the direction this site going to ? I dont watch Glee but I dont like how users can get their own articles and opinion on this site.
This doesn’t belong on TVBTN. If I wanted to read Julia’s personal blog, I would.
I have also been trying to enjoy glee and for the most part I do because I happen to like the cover songs and some of it can be quite funny. But I do agree that the show tends to be quite misogynistic not only in its portrayal of women as manipulators but more importantly the fact that Emma (the counselor) feels that since she can’t be with the man she wants, then she has to MARRY someone she doesn’t even want to touch her! what are we in the 1940’s and she’s some old maid that can’t survive without getting married to someone??? what kinda bs is that? It hasn’t made me stop watching the show but that along with a couple of other storylines really turn my stomach. Just my 2 cents.
If this website will post only about ratings it will remain marginal forever , so I do not understand all these : “Oh my gooooooood this post does not belong to TVBTN “….however I remember Holly and Julia crying last may for “too much Chuck post which does not belong to TVBTN” ….
Terrible article filled with incorrect information.
“But the males on the show are all innocent, good people.”
Um, no.
Julia,
I understand where you’re coming from with this post and this exact issue has been why my interest in the show has declined substantially. Despite all the people crowing here about how “you must not have watched a lot of episodes”, there is definitely a bias towards women being manipulative and evil – or suffering from some sort of mental illness. I completely and wholeheartedly agree with you on this point.
I think everyone is missing the point. Julia has every right to post an opinion piece on why she doesn’t like a show. It is making a statement that it is “the most misogynistc show on tv” that was wrong. Any statement like that should be based on a thorough knowledge of the material. I could say I was not interested in TRANSFORMERS nor would I care to sit through it but you’d better believe that if I was going to slam it as the most misogynistic film of summer 2009 I would see it from beginning to end. The same applies here. It might not be Julias cup of tea but labeling it as misogynistic after only seeing a handful of episodes is a little short-sighted.
mayorofsmpleton …please let’s be honest that’s crap …. you can think that a show is the worst ever even after 5 minutes … your pleasure for playing with words is a non sense or at least please does not start with something like ” everyone has the right to an opinion but if I do not like it it’s better he has a master degree on the matter “… please
In reading the newest post, I come across this odd piece “Why I’m Not Watching Glee”. My First Thought is How ARROGANT! Why On Earth would this Julia Person think for a second that anyone cares about her opinion on why she isnt watching Glee! I didnt even bother to read the article because I dont care what Julia watches or doesnt watch.
This Woman is FULL OF HERSELF!
jeeeez… where is the next posting “Burn Julia burn!! ”
This is completely ridicolous … I’m happy to do not watch this crappy show
Well, if we’ve learned one thing here, it’s that Moonlight is not the only show with a crazy fanbase!
I agree with Julia — when it comes right down to it, the male characters are portrayed in a sympathetic way (even when they are doing unsympathetic things, i.e. Shue framing Finn for having marijuana), and the female characters are not. I’d love to see that change. I do still watch the show because there are things about it that I enjoy a lot (mostly the music,) and I have hope that the characterization will even out over the course of the season.
I watch Glee, don’t think its really that bad in portraying women because the whole concept is a bit… unusual.
I agree we should have more articles like this, to help the slow and sad weekends
I decided based on the promos that I saw before Glee premiered that I didn’t want to watch the show. So I based my “not watch” decision on even less than Julia did. I make about a third of my “watch/not watch” decisions based on promos, the rest I watch an episode or 2 of a show and then decide if I want to continue to watch regularly.
I have not read all the comments preceeding mine, but I have read enough to get the idea that most of the objections to the article are from fans that think Julia’s opinion is wrong or unfair. Folks, it’s an opinion. If you don’t agree with her then fine, but there seems to be far more angst over this article (yes, I read the article) than it merits.
My real question is how did Julia get to post an article on this site? Is she Bill or Robert’s girlfriend or spouse? I think someone else asked the same questions. I don’t think I saw an answer.
Viper — Julia has helped out on and off with editing glaring mistakes we make and had access to post for some time now. She has not posted frequently, though again, I encourage her to do so.
Julia is not married to or dating either of us. She’s just been a long-time participant on the site who we like and appreciate.
edit: and she likes fixing apostrophe abuse sometimes!
julia you have obviously have zero taste in good television glee is one of the most innovative,original and thought provoking series on all of broadcast television it dwells into the mind of an average high-school experience and whether you like it or not glee is an accurate depiction of the average girls high-school experience girls are conniving,cut throat and caddy they form cliques and ridicule their peers whom they deem as uncool or strange thats the reality,glee tackles controversial social issues such as homosexuality and unwed teen pregnancy and puts a comedic spin to it i think television more wholesome family programming to balance some of the not so savory programming like gossip girl or sons anarchy(i really love sons of anarchy best show on television after glee)
Robert- Thanks for the quick, straight answer to my questions.
Re the edit remark: Sorry, but it has been a long time since my last English grammar class. I did not realize that there were points taken off for spelling and punctuation. If so there are far worse offenders commenting here than me.(I)
Wow, I’m kind of starting to feel bad for Julia even though I totally disagree with her. I’m all for the occasional review or debate on this site really.
Next time, post your opinion when it’s timely. I think most of the problem is a lot has happened on Glee since the third episode, so people want to tear their hair out because the basis for your opinion omits more than half of the show. Especially when you don’t know who Finn is. It would be like me posting “Why I’m not watching Lost” and citing nothing past the insufferable Bai Ling episode about Jack’s tattoo from several years ago.
As far as I’m concerned, Julia should be congratulated (or pitied, I’m not sure which) for making it through three episodes of this season. I watched the pilot and after that episode alone it was clear to me that the show was meant to appeal only to immature teenage girls. And from most of the comments I read, that appears to be who is watching.
It is perfectly acceptable to express an opinion on a program after any number of episodes as long as you clearly state the number along with the opinion. Julia clearly did this.
Mmmmmmmmm, delicious controversy!
@Whomever: Kudos to you for also recognizing that Mark Salling is CLEARLY the more gifted vocalist than the flat and bland Cory Monteith.
OK, I’ve decided that I do want to add my two cents, too. I watch Glee. I don’t love it, I don’t hate it. I watch it mostly because I really love Jane lynch in just about anything, and I do think this show is a great vessel for her. (Also the reason I watched her episodes of Two and a Half Men.) While I do think that she, Will’s wife and sister-in-law, and in the beginning, the head cheerleader were manipulative, I certainly don’t think that msogynistic is the word to use. I think that is why there is so much backlash on this post. I don’t mind Julia not liking the show. I don’t mind Julia not liking the female characters listed above. And I, for one enjoy the occasional opinion piece on here. I think that I’d have preferred Holly to write it, but I think that she would not have used an “excuse” rather than a factual reason.
I don’t like Lost because it’s a modern, dramatic remake of Gilligan’s Island. If I were to post this, I’m sure that I’d get ranted and raved at too. I don’t like “reality” tv. Period. I think that American Idol is just the Gong Show remade with an obnoxios human gong. Or three. I don’t like Chuck. Yes, I did say that. After reading all the posts last spring during the save Chuck/screw Medium campaign, I downloaded and watched every episode. Most with my husband and for the life of either of us, we cannot figure out which part of it was supposed to be good or funny. And yes, we both fall into the most the key demo, and will for decades to come.
All I’m saying is if you don’t like a show, and want to share that and you’re reasons for that, great. But don’t try to tell me that your OPINIONS are FACTS. Don’t use terms like IT IS ONE OF THE MOST, use I THINK or I FEEL or IN MY OPINION. Because when you try to tell me The sky is green, you’re gonna piss me off. The sky may look green to you, where you are, with your contacts in or reflecting off the grass, but it is not, in fact, green.
Thank you, and sorry for any typos, I’m not going to proofread.
These, while they are my opinions, they are not based in facts.
Unless you’re a 12 year old girl the show is terrible. Why isn’t this on Disney?
Darrin, I’m a 27 year old male who likes girls and I love Glee!
Parenthood, Monroe Ficus from Too Close For Comfort just called and said there’s plenty of room for you in his closet.
This is bullshit. This not some reality show. It is a scripted show about a group of mostly high school students who have yet to find themselves. Their characters need to grow during the run of the show, however long that is. High school is hell for every kid from the nerds to the popular ones.
You may be woman-centric now, were you totally that way in high school?
Wait…the author of this article wasn’t even sure who Finn was? How can you watch three episodes of the show and not know who the male LEAD is? I’m starting to think that this article must have been written by a 97 year old woman with dementia…
Well, Glee is Joss Whedon’s favorite show right now!
http://tinyurl.com/yfvz9td
“On the really happening front, aren’t you directing an episode of Glee?
I am.
Is Glee your new favorite show?
That would be an exactly correct assessment. With Sarah Connor and Battlestar gone, my wife and I need a new obsession and it landed in my lap. And sang to us!”
Rachel would never sabotage Glee. She never has and never will. Abandoning Glee for a while doesn’t equate to sabotaging it.
Also, there are quite a few female characters who aren’t crazy or manipulative/scheming. Mercedes Jones and Tina Cohen-Chang for example.
So can any of us get our own column now? Listing (incorrect and erroneous) reasons why we don’t like a show?
I’m fairly certain that when the best singer quits Glee club because she doesn’t know how to share, that’s a form of sabotage.
No.
Every single character in this show is flawed one way or another. That is why they are interesting. And they all have major singing/dancing talent on top of the interesting characters. What’s not to like?
Glee seems a bit overrated but its doing well for FOX so it seems a shoe in for another season.
That there’s no plot, BJ. Outside of the music, and the scheming of Sue, there’s absolutely no plot to the episodes.
I’ve watched every episode so far (because my partner loves it), but it just does not seem to get better. Every week is this: Sue comes up with a scheme for no apparent reason. People leave the Glee club. People rejoin the Glee club. Dance number. Roll credits. Repeat. It’s like the “Bring it on” series of movies.
This is a show that’s going to be struggling for story lines by the end of this season, just like the better Popular did at the beginning of the decade. Because really, that’s all that Glee is – a reimagined Popular, with dance numbers.
The characters have flaws, sure, but not true evil. I think this article is pretty much crap. The show is unique, amazing, and all is presented in a light manner. So if the women are too “crazy for you”, what other shows are not? Greys? Desperate Housewives? House? Hmmm…
And as to the plot issue, I think the show has some overarching story lines, but most episodes can stand on their own.
Bottom line, this article belongs no where near this site. Go spout off somewhere else
I guess Doug (2) hasn’t seen the latest episode yet.
Reading this I can only assume you are viewing Glee through the lens of your own internalized misogyny. There’s no other explanation for how you can completely gloss over both the numerous flaws of the show’s male characters and all the redeeming features of the show’s female characters. When you see male characters viciously bullying each other, peddling drugs to kids, committing fraud, blackmailing, preying on each others’ girlfriends, cheating on their girlfriends, seducing girls and using them in order to further their own goals (say, that last one sounds familiar!)… and you say they’re “innocent, good people”… you’re putting the male gender on a pretty gigantic pedestal. At least the female characters are facing real crises, with teen pregnancy and a failing marriage; one can feel sympathy for their burdens even if they’re dealing with them poorly. When the male characters are misbehaving, they just seem petty in comparison.
Could an argument be made that Glee gives the female side of the cast a disproportionate amount of negative exposure? Quite possibly so. I’m not sure one way or the other, but reflecting on this article there are a couple of uncomfortable questions raised about the subject. Yet by deliberately skewing the comparison to such an extreme degree you’re only undermining your own argument.
Guess I’m the only one who’s stuck with GLEE mainly for the music. But, I’m weird like that, and I needed a break from the crime dramas, dramas and scifi shows.
More than three episodes would have showed that the guys have sucky characteristics just as much as the girls. And – Sue is not ALL evil. We just learned last night that Sue has backstory and it’s pretty touching.
That’s pretty much all I have to add to this. Other than I can decide within one or two episodes whether or not I’ll stick with a show. Nothing wrong with that, and most people don’t need any more eps than that. But if I’m going to post an editorial on a very public blog site like this one, I’d at least know who the main character was.
Just sayin’.
I’m watching GLEE but I agree with Julia’s opinion – GLEE is one of the most misogynistic shows on TV right now. This shouldn’t surprise anyone who’s familiar with Ryan Murphy’s other anti-woman hit-job, Nip/Tuck.
I will say that when Jessalyn Gilsig isn’t onscreen, the amount of free-floating woman-hate fades to tolerable levels. It doesn’t make Rachel less of a prima donna, Quinn less manipulative, Mercedes less PC set-dressing, or Will, Finn, Kurt and Kurt’s dad less heroic poster boys for masculine tolerance and patience.
That said what’s unacceptable in an adult is excusable in a kid. Presumably, Quinn will not keep lying to Finn, Rachel’s heart will grow two sizes so that she can let someone else have a solo without cutting their knees out from under them, and Will and Finn will be shown as more of the spineless enablers and self-centred egoists they are. GLEE has already come further than I was expecting – this week’s episode was heavy-handed but the message about treating people with disabilities as people first was timely, if ironic given that GLEE chose to feature a disabled character for no apparent reason and then cast an able-bodied actor.
Moreover, the “student” cast are uniformly engaging onscreen, presented in a naturalistic manner that is both winning and feels more believable than the generation of arch, glib, Whedon-ized teens preceding GLEE. Sue Lynch is the brilliant and when written as a straight villain and not a blunt object for feminist-bashing she is also the best antagonist currently on US TV.
As long as I can FF through the Gilsig and Emma/Will storylines, I’ll keep watching GLEE. But, seriously, the second coming of TV this ain’t.
Hi Julie
I enjoy watching Glee, but I also don’t mind that other’s are expressing opinions that conflict with mine. However, I just thought I’d say that last nights episode was the least “misogynistic” one yet. Sue was shown not to be so 1-dimensional, and Tina was also given some spotlight. I think it shows that they are still trying to develop the characters and figure out where they are going. I really enjoyed last night’s episode and think that it added some much needed warmth to this cynical and stereotype-rooted, yet still funny, show. So if you get the chance, I would check it out
I really cannot respect the opinion of someone who doesn’t like Mad Men. Sorry. How can you NOT LIKE THE SHOW??
Ok, here’s how I handle Glee. I skip to the musical numbers. Really, it’s the only parts worth watching. Plus Sue Sylvester’s lines.
I can honestly say I’ve never given much thought to the apparent msygonistic writing in Glee but then I tend not to give much thought to things of that nature in general, perhaps because I’m male? With that said I do find it very difficult to take this kind of criticism about Glee and shows like it seriously, just because of the tone and nature of the show – generally speaking I find it very hard to take anything about Glee seriously and for the record that’s kind of why I like it.
I think if it were attempting to play things straight and be more naturalistic/realistic in both style and tone then I’d be more inclined to take anaylse like this seriously but it isn’t. Its very hard to take a serious view of social issues within the show in which people have a tendancy to burst into song and perform highly choreographed dance routines.
My read on Glee is that you enjoy it when you don’t think about it or anaylse it and just roll along with it because when you stop to actually look and think about what’s going on the bigger picture doesn’t look so pretty. Really outside of maybe Artie (the guy in the wheelchair) none of the characters on the show are especially likeable or even very nice but when you don’t take any of it seriously and just ride along with the fact that its supposed to be a fun bit of fluff with lots of singing and dancing it tends to be fine.
Joompa, I said that I’ve seen EVERY episode, including this week’s. Just because you give Sue a 30 second scene with her Down’s Syndrome sister doesn’t suddenly redeem her character. It’s lazy story-telling and reeks of the writers thinking “Man, we have to make Sue likable! What’s the most cloying way that we can do that?”
I really hope my partner gets over this show, and soon.
All of the the characters in Glee have both good and bad side’s. They all have secrets, they are all insane, and they are all retarded – exactly like real high school kids. (I have two in high school right now). It’s a comedy, so everything is overblown for fun. But saying it’s “misogynistic” is confusing to those of us that have been watching the show. Every girl in the show has a heart and you find yourself rooting for all of them at one time or another. The “evil” head of the Cheerios is played so over-the-top that I find myself laughing almost everytime she says anything.
I’m writing in reponse to your negative blog because I’m a huge fan of the show and I want it to suceed. The music blow’s me away every week, and the rest of it (the story lines) are fun in a “don’t take this so seriously” way. I admit that I’m not comfortable with every story line, but I DVR the show every week and usually replay the musical numbers several times. There are no storylines on this show that haven’t been done before (see Juno, Knocked-up, etc.)..so smile and let yourself be entertained. And I seriously suggest watching old episodes. There are dance numbers on every show, every one worth seeing twice, and some worth putting on your Ipod.